[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
screw you man. you are as much a cheater as i am.
and an even bigger whore.
[/quote]
Awww. blushes
[quote]Hanley wrote:
hangclean wrote:
I have yet to see someone struggling with their bench that did not benefit from heavy tricep work. Even if you think your triceps are not a weak point, they need to be stronger. Heavy close grip board presses with bands/chains, weighted push-ups, etc.
Hmmm… I doubt a lot of raw benchers would agree with you there. There’s NO correlation between my 3 board press and raw full range bench because the bar never makes it there. What’s the point in having cock strong triceps if the bar doesn’t move more than 3 inches?[/quote]
I didnt say you should do only 3 boards. My point is that I have never seen someone not benefit from doing heavy tricep work. Almost every time I see someone struggling with their bench, raw or shirted, the problem is usually the triceps.
[quote]hangclean wrote:
Hanley wrote:
hangclean wrote:
I have yet to see someone struggling with their bench that did not benefit from heavy tricep work. Even if you think your triceps are not a weak point, they need to be stronger. Heavy close grip board presses with bands/chains, weighted push-ups, etc.
Hmmm… I doubt a lot of raw benchers would agree with you there. There’s NO correlation between my 3 board press and raw full range bench because the bar never makes it there. What’s the point in having cock strong triceps if the bar doesn’t move more than 3 inches?
I didnt say you should do only 3 boards. My point is that I have never seen someone not benefit from doing heavy tricep work. Almost every time I see someone struggling with their bench, raw or shirted, the problem is usually the triceps.
[/quote]
Are you saying if you’re weak off your chest, training your triceps in lieu of chest, back and shoulders is what should happen?
[quote]Hanley wrote:
hangclean wrote:
Hanley wrote:
hangclean wrote:
I have yet to see someone struggling with their bench that did not benefit from heavy tricep work. Even if you think your triceps are not a weak point, they need to be stronger. Heavy close grip board presses with bands/chains, weighted push-ups, etc.
Hmmm… I doubt a lot of raw benchers would agree with you there. There’s NO correlation between my 3 board press and raw full range bench because the bar never makes it there. What’s the point in having cock strong triceps if the bar doesn’t move more than 3 inches?
I didnt say you should do only 3 boards. My point is that I have never seen someone not benefit from doing heavy tricep work. Almost every time I see someone struggling with their bench, raw or shirted, the problem is usually the triceps.
Are you saying if you’re weak off your chest, training your triceps in lieu of chest, back and shoulders is what should happen?[/quote]
No. What I’m saying is that in my experience it is usually the triceps that are the lagging bodypart when people are struggling with the bench, regardless of where the sticking point is. Some people may disagree, but I think the triceps are more crucial than anything else with the bench press. Raw or shirted. This is not to say that the other bodyparts should be neglected, but strong triceps=strong bench any way you look at it.
I’m guessing if shoulders are a weak point, your bench will have a weak point thus not at its potential. But having really strong shoulders wouldn’t hurt, only make you a better bencher. My OHP is a lot more closer to my bench than compared to your two lifts. OHP- 115 for triples or 4~5, and my bench press, though, is only a really small 170. I guessed I’ve noticed a correlation; like when your millitary press gets stronger your bench may stay still, and when your bench gets stronger your millitary stays the same. Sort of allowing the overlapped muscles (deltoids, tri’s) to taper back to its strength before doing other lifts, I think could help, if you want to focus on a particular lift- say the millitary press or bench press.
Nontheless, both millitary and benchpress should ULTIMATELY improve, but i think in your case- your benchpress doesn’t suck, compared to me, but your millitary press is subpar compared to your bench. Fixing that, would be fixing up more or less of your problems. I don’t mean to be critical, just trying to make everyone a better lifter.
Maybe you just need to deload…if your elbows hurt from doing closegrips what kinda pain are you getting?
I remember doing westside template and just from all the tricep work and pressing my elbows were taking a beating. I rested a bit, and fluctuated my volume and I started to go up again and didn’t have pain.
Also your nutrition will play a role.
On a more important note I rather hear what Meat has to say on increasing the bench…how much direct tricep work do you do meat?
It’s unlikely to be the problem, but no one has asked about your range of motion.
If you lie down on the floor and put your upper arms at an angle that would put the imaginary bar somewhat “over” your head but not all the way, with your hands spaced about the way they would be for the lift, and with no effort to force your elbows down, do both your elbows comfortably rest on the floor?
This will not always be the case. For example, at the present moment (I could improve it momentarily and temporarily with stretching, but right this instant) while my right elbow will do this, the left one has the arm cocked nearly 45 degrees upward and the elbow most certainly is not touching the floor. Even with force the elbow doesn’t want to go down (back) that much.
When there’s a tightness problem like this, it will really interfere with barbell overhead pressing.
Hopefully that’s not your problem, but if it happens to be that you have a ROM problem it’s important to recognize it.
The reason military presses are often discussed as a way to keep your shoulders healthy is because of what is required to do a good overhead press.
Bill Roberts is right, that is an excellent test for lat tightness if your overhead pressing into lat tightness at the top of the movement, it is not going to work well. Just doing some lat stretching will really help most people. There are can also be infraspinatus or other RC muscle weakness/tightness which will make rotation of the humerus through the overhead press ROM ugly to say the least.
Beyond that, unlike bench pressing, overhead pressing requires solid upward rotation of the scapula as you press overhead. That means properly functioning serratus and lower trap. Rhomboids are also extremely important with this movement. All these muscles help by providing a strong infrastructure where the overhead press movement begins. Its really not a shoulder exercise, its shoulders, tris, serratus, lower trap, all these muscles need to be in good strong working order.
But doing a military press itself is not necessarily going to make you strong in all the right places and give you correct upward scapular rotation, many people will be very weak in the rhomboids and lower traps and need specific isolation work in those areas.
A good test on overhead press is if you really feel your upper traps. If you do, that scapular force couple is probably not working very well and the upper trap is probably straining to rotate the scapula with comparitively little assistance from the rhomboids and lower traps.
All of this can help the bench press by allowing you to stay very tight throughout the ROM, but its not a sure thing fix for a weak bench press.
mi best military press is 195 and 135x16
my best close grip bench press is around 275
havent maxed wth a wider grip in a while
Well, the discussion on balanced/healthy shoulders may be a little off topic but I am interested in it
What exercises do you think are needed to keep them balanced/healthy? Is barbell row the main one? Do you feel any isolation work is needed for the shoulders, particularly rear delts?
Is shoulder health just a matter of keeping the delts balanced, or do you need additional dedicated work for other upper back/shoulder girdle muscles and if so what exercises would work this area?
Is it possible the military press would make a shoulder worse if it already has problems?
I hear fairly often of people doing some back work as assistance on the same day as bench. Is there any benefit to this vs doing it on a separate back day?
If anyone feels compelled to talk about this I would appreciate it 
[quote]thogue wrote:
Well, the discussion on balanced/healthy shoulders may be a little off topic but I am interested in it
What exercises do you think are needed to keep them balanced/healthy? Is barbell row the main one? Do you feel any isolation work is needed for the shoulders, particularly rear delts?
Is shoulder health just a matter of keeping the delts balanced, or do you need additional dedicated work for other upper back/shoulder girdle muscles and if so what exercises would work this area?
Is it possible the military press would make a shoulder worse if it already has problems?
I hear fairly often of people doing some back work as assistance on the same day as bench. Is there any benefit to this vs doing it on a separate back day?
If anyone feels compelled to talk about this I would appreciate it :)[/quote]
There is a big trend lately on the internet, about how bench press ruins shoulders and overhead pressing is the old school-functional-injury preventing exercise and all that. What worked for me was training the back and triceps hard, heavy bench sets with solid form and some light shoulder sets thrown at the back day.
Most people are going to have some weaker muscles somewhere. For me its rhomboids and infraspinatus. These are two common culprits but there are others. To hit the rhomboids I’ve been doing a Dan John exercise lying on my chest on a bench and retracting the scapula and hold for 10 seconds rest for a few and repeat 3 times for 3 sets with very light weight in hands, initially this was difficult for me to do, but I’ve noticed how weak those muscles really were. I do some external rotations side lying with towel as well. My regular seated rows and other exercises requiring scapular retraction have gotten much better and I can feel those muscles thickening up, they simply werent working before apparently.
Then you have other people who just do their normal routines and their rhomboids work terrifically and just flourish, these people often wonder what other people are doing spending their time on these little exercises.
Kind of like Michael Jordan saying, “see just put one foot in front of the other and jump up dunk over patrick ewing and backpedal down the court” get it? These people like desolator make the worst kind of coaches, their body works terrific and they dont understand why others cant do what they do without thinking.
If you read my post my body was NOT working terrific. The whole point of my post was to train balanced and hard all the body. Also if you see some exercise is not helping your bench, ditch it and find others. There are many people who aren’t built for overhead pressing, like me, and likely require posture changes like the ones you said in order to do well.
[quote]raw bench 365x2 touch and go/no bounce
incline bench 275x2-3
seated milt press 185x4 (today)… think I have done 205x2-3 in the past
[/quote]
wow
my max is 295 on bench
and my seated mili press is : 1220, 3205, 7*185…
unfair 
!!
[quote]Mondy wrote:
This is odd, I military press 127lbs standing (from chest to lockout, it actually leaves a red mark on my collarbones afterwards) and I only bench 165 for maybe 5 reps. :s The bench sure is puzzling.[/quote]
I was thinking something similar. I can use 135 for 5x5 on military press going all the way down to my upper chest yet can only hit 235 x 1 on the bench. Maybe my form just sucks
[quote]Ryan71 wrote:
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
so call me crazy… i think he just asked if military presses as an assistance exercise can improve his bench. i then answered his specific question with a specific answer.
i agree that the strict standing military press is important for balanced development, but that wasn’t what he was asking.
the correlation that he was asking about is if one improves the other.
i’m all for developing all muscle groups in the body but if you are looking to improve a specific lift you need to do specific accessory movements.
by the way, i love your “you should be able to strict overhead press 3/4’s of your bench” or you are looking at shoulder problems. where did you get that from?? i have a 520lb raw bench. so… if i can’t strict overhead press 390lbs, i’m looking at shoulder problems? i’m guessing you read that somewhere?
most of my advice comes from my own experience under the bar and from listening to others. you need some more time under that bar i bet.
[/quote]
You are obviously strong (but then again you can say anything on the internet), but you have again misquoted me. I posted “about 2/3” not 3/4 and the point is you need to be balanced to stay healthy. While not as strong as you, I have done pretty well lifting for over 20 years now, thank you. I was addressing the original question, not the accessory one, but if you would not have posted in the fashion you did, making it more of an argument than a discussion, I would not have responded the way I did.
I think we both agree the military is a useful lift, but we’re looking at it from different angles. Even if the anterior delt isn’t his weakness, the press is still a useful exercise.[/quote]
He has plenty of video to prove that he is as strong as he says he is.
I’ve got you guys beat on gap I think.
Bench 325
Military press 125(standing with just an ever-so-slightly knee bend)
I’ve always been taught that your pull should be as close as possible to your push so I try to maintain that.
Hi, first post on this forum although i’ve been coming to this site and reading for quite some time now… I just recently decided to make my own account.
Let me give everyone a little bit of background about me before I offer my opinions and share my comments.
17 years old, started getting serious about lifting around age 8 or 9. Competitive lifter for my school and football player since 7 years of age. I’m currently a state competitor and district champion for the competitive power lifting at the high school level. Max raw bench - 325 Max box squat to parallel 510 - power clean - 285 Body weight - fluctuating between 185 - 187 … want prove? ill put videos up soon.
Ok look, sometimes reading these forums and how you people get into these debates over simple questions frustrates me. Everyone seems to make it more complicated than it is. why gets all scientific and particular over the correlation between two movements and his strength deficiencies?
I’ll answer your question minus all the complexity everyone puts in their answers over training like their some kind of fitness gurus. I too was struggling with a weak OH press. Every variation ( Jerk, Push Press and Military to be specific ) while my bench numbers were shooting up from week to week. For bench, we all know the chest, shoulders, and triceps are all muscles involved in a well rounded bench press. Including the back as well. many of you have well rounded bench presses but shitty over head pressing in comparison… here’s why. You’re OH movement is weak because you may have neglected it at some point in your training and you’re priorities change from 1 accomplishment to the next or in addressing muscle imbalances. If you’re OH press is weak in comparison to your bench it’s just because you haven’t balanced your priority between the two movements. Some muscles develop quicker than others depending on the rep scheme or loading method used. That’s why in my opinion you should train MOVEMENTs not muscles. As you get better at the “compound” movement - the muscles will strengthen if you hit them from other angles ( which prevents joint problems and flexibility issues ) with assistance/accessory or even supplemental lifts from periodically.
You can have a big bench with a flat chest because you don’t hit it from other angles instead of the limited movement you get in the exercise. You can have a big bench with huger shoulders and a shitty OH press because you train your shoulders without the movement. Either way. Increase your weaker link and the rest will strengthen too. Just don’t neglect one lift for the other… simply change the frequency in which you train that movement… in your case the OH pressing/military press. it’s called specialization. Continue to work chest at what ever frequency you do and throw in some extra shoulder work focused around the military.
This should be well said.
If you need specialization examples for core shoulder work… P.M me.
I have plenty of stability, strength, speed and neural work that can be done as core shoulder work.
- Chase
one more point I think I should make…
If you train just the muscle for part of your body - there are specific methods that differ from training a movement and functionality. If you pick and chose what kind of training you do, either atrophy or strength deficits set in. That is why Thibs and other professionals who know what they’re really doin will tell you train for EVERYTHING.
If i were to see a picture of your shoulder development and say you have a huge girdle with great development… yet you tell me your maxes suck on certain movements I’d tell you incorporate more ME/DE ( max effort or dynamic effort ) work in you’re core lifts but do NOT neglect other things. Simply work to maintain the size until you can get your strength / work capacity and force production to an acceptable level that gives you a sense of balance.
- Chase