(Mighty) Stu Yellin, WNBF Pro Updates n Q&A

Bigger Stronger Leaner
481

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
I know CT and Meadows have laid out this kind of method before, and they both generally agreed that an optimal hypertrophy workout sequence was:

1 - Pump work

2 - “heavy work”

3 - “hypertrophy work”

4 - Training a muscle in the stretched position, and/or Explosive work on a pumped muscle

This “layering” as CT calls it or “sequencing” as Meadows calls it is a very intelligent way to set up a hypertrophy workout plan it seems.[/quote]

Ahh yes, I remember it well, I have done that in the past.

Currently, I do something similar though without the pre-pump as I didn’t feel it benefiting me.

482

[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
Meh, I’d be interested to hear Stu’s thoughts on this. I’d suspect that someone who’s been lifting for twenty years would say that a lot of this stuff is probably just the “latest and greatest” that will be replaced a year from now with the next fad, but maybe Stu will disagree. Sorta smells of the lamp to me, as most trends that are ultimately replaced do. [/quote]

I wouldn’t be so quick to brush off two of the better minds in the industry when they both arrive at almost the same conclusion independently.

I think if you look at the workouts I posted again you’ll see they are quite “normal”. I could have easily just said it was “Warm up, then lift heavy, then back off and get volume,” and they don’t claim its anything ground breaking or DO THIS OR YOU’RE WASTING YOU TIME IN THE GYM!!!

Its simply a way to structure the workout to take advantage of a number of different factors:

  • Safety: Warming up the joints, getting blood into the muscles, and selecting a “safe” first exercise to prepare you for the next, heavier exercise

  • Growth Mechanisms: The layout of the workout ensures you are getting multiple different forms of stimulation, all of which work by different pathways to stimulate hypertrophy: Pump Work, Heavy loading, loaded stretch, explosive work, occlusion training, etc…

  • Efficiency and Optimization: Why do body builders do four different exercises for chest? Why not one? Why not seven? Presumably each exercises serves a specific purpose and contributes to the overall purpose of the workout. Otherwise why not just do “the best” chest exercise for 30 sets?

This isnt a “trend,” It isnt something they even advertise really (Meadows makes mention of it now and then, but it isnt like he is marketing it as “Meadows Optimal Sequence Training System”). Honestly, the way I’ve laid it out above is probably more complicated than they have even written about it.

This is Stu’s thread however, so I’ll let him have final say and this will be my last post on the matter here. If you wish to discuss it further we can take it elsewhere.

483

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:

[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
Meh, I’d be interested to hear Stu’s thoughts on this. I’d suspect that someone who’s been lifting for twenty years would say that a lot of this stuff is probably just the “latest and greatest” that will be replaced a year from now with the next fad, but maybe Stu will disagree. Sorta smells of the lamp to me, as most trends that are ultimately replaced do. [/quote]

I wouldn’t be so quick to brush off two of the better minds in the industry when they both arrive at almost the same conclusion independently.[/quote]

Not brushing off at all. Just saying that “optimal method” of exercise sequencing, like implements used etc, just tends to be something that’s very cyclical in terms of what’s considered best.

484

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
This isnt a “trend,” It isnt something they even advertise really (Meadows makes mention of it now and then, but it isnt like he is marketing it as “Meadows Optimal Sequence Training System”).
[/quote]

Drop off “system” and we have a TV info-mercial ready for the making…

Want to get the M.O.S.T. out of your training?

Than try:
“Meadows Optimal Sequence Training”

485

[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
This isnt a “trend,” It isnt something they even advertise really (Meadows makes mention of it now and then, but it isnt like he is marketing it as “Meadows Optimal Sequence Training System”).
[/quote]

Drop off “system” and we have a TV info-mercial ready for the making…

Want to get the M.O.S.T. out of your training?

Than try:
“Meadows Optimal Sequence Training”[/quote]

Tim I totally agree with what you’re saying, I’m all about that phat pump as well, I’ve been noticing lately that a lot of these dup powerlifting program type guys who do bodybuilding get injured all the time. Progressive overload is definitely important, but it ain’t the only thing that matters for bodybuilding

486

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
Tim I totally agree with what you’re saying, I’m all about that phat pump as well, I’ve been noticing lately that a lot of these dup powerlifting program type guys who do bodybuilding get injured all the time. Progressive overload is definitely important, but it ain’t the only thing that matters for bodybuilding
[/quote]

I am trying to find that balance.

I definitely still lift heavy, but there is a much greater portion of my training spent with lighter weights than I ever used to employ.

I am enjoying training this way and I feel like I am getting results.

487

[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
Stu,

In a 2012 post, you wrote this:

"Some people will be able to lock down their essentials (protein and healthy fats), and then add ‘unlimited’ carbs until they reach their numbers. Other people won’t. It will really come down to how quickly your body begins to put on adipose, and how comfortable you are with those levels. If you’re willing to get 15-20%, then you may not care if your insulin sensitivity is a little off and you soften up quicker than someone else might.

I know people get sick of the “it’s an individualized thing” answer, but often, even we we do understand the basic processes that we’re addressing (juggling), that’s going to be the ultimate test of whether our approach works or not. Cordova described his approach to diet in an old article similar to what I mentioned in the thread you referred to. He talked about “filling in the rest” with carbs. Obviously Jim has one hell of a metabolism, and as great and humble of a guy as he is, people do joke about how he could get away dieting on burritos and still look amazing. "

Here’s my question:

I train early in the morning (5:30am). For certain health reasons, I can only eat late at night (~9:30pm-~11:30pm). In a sense, I’m essentially an intermittent fasting person who has a very small “window,” but whose window is not able to correspond to the postworkout window (which, I know, is debatable/potentially broscience/etc). Given those timing issues, would you still suggest hitting the “essentials (protein/healthy fats)” and then filling out the rest with carbs? Or would you hit a minimum carb amount to create an insulin response but focus more on higher protein and fat intake?

I understand, as you say in that quote above, that it’s going to be an individual response. But I just wanted to get your thoughts on the “in theory” level about what would be most effective for someone who is trying to put on lean mass.

Edit, didn’t say Thanks![/quote]

Ok, here’s the deal. “Nutrient Timing” can be helpful to advanced trainers or athletes, SOMETIMES. That means that some people may notice anm increase in performance, while others don’t. Assuming your body is functioning well, you’re probably walking around with your glycogen levels pretty well topped off most of the time, as well as eating frequently enough that your blood sugar levels aren’t in the pits (and you’re not really feeling like killing the weights). Food takes a while, HOURS to fully digest. While the approach of pre, or peri workout nutrition is still fairly new in the grand scheme of things, people have managed to do just fine athletically and hypertrophy-wise long before this approach become fashionable.

Carbs at night do not convert to fat. Science has pretty much debunked that theory. So if you’re getting your carbs in well outside the post-workout window, I wouldn’t freak out, especially if you’re covering the rest of your nutrtional bases.

Also, realize the whole individuality thing. Your body will be better able to uptake carbs at certain times of day (relevant to training), so if you find that you need to cut back slightly, it’s not a horrible thing, just be objective about your goals and how your approach is working out.

Chances are though, that you’ll be just fine -lol.

S

488

[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
Not brushing off at all. Just saying that “optimal method” of exercise sequencing, like implements used etc, just tends to be something that’s very cyclical in terms of what’s considered best. [/quote]

“Optimal” is a word that IMO you can’t really use with 100% certainty when discussing muscle gain. THere are so many variables and approaches, that even when you think you’ve solved your own unique physiological puzzle, you find that it won’t work again a second time (many a contest competitor finds that they can’t just follow their previous plan and get the same results!)

Consider the magic of stimulating muscle growth. While science has managed to trace various occurences that can lead to hypertrophy, you can’t really make a statement about one always being superior to others. Even in the cases of ensuring multiple approaches are included within the “latest and greatest” training program, who can say that such an outline is universally optimal.

I’ve mentioned before the various consideration that can play a role in the quest for hypertrophy. A few I personally like to focus on when planning any plan:

-Mechanical Tension - The typical stretch and contract against resistance. This is the basis for the traditional progressive overload approach.

-Pump Work - Can increase Metabolic Stress (build up of lactate and other metabolites), can add to cell swelling (creating a more favorable anabolic environment inside the muscle cells for synthesis), and can play a role in blood flow.

-Stretch Work - A “stretched muscle will contract with more fibers”, hence the inclusion in any discussion of maximizing growth.

-Acceleration Training - Check C.A.T. by Hatfield, and you’ll see how this can play into maximum fiber recruitment as well.

-Fiber type training - While some people do overestimate the importance, I do believe that certain areas have a specific fiber type breakdown. Knowing this I to consciously plan things with different rep ranges in mind. (and yes, injury prevention always factors in as well)

-Sequencing - As any smart bodybuilder or physique conscious trainer knows, we all have (whether due to genetics, athletics, or what have you) strength and development imbalances. Bringing things into a proper proportion or symmetry can sometimes require training around natural strengths or even weaknesses. This is where pre-exhaust, and ordering exercises in a specific manner come into play.

Now, the amount of consideration anyone gives to any one of these can vary. Some people can do nothing more than Progressive Overload for years and make tons of progress. Others will get stronger, possibly injured, and never achieve similar size gains. THat’s why it’s so important to understand why certain approaches work, and why others may not.

Sure, I’ll admit to writing a short piece that goes through several mini-cycles of different approaches just like any other coach or author, but I like to think that when I did so it was more as a learning tool than a “this is the greatest program I’ve ever written” piece. Think more along the “Teach a man to fish” way of thinking :slight_smile:

S

489

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:

I know CT and Meadows have laid out this kind of method before, and they both generally agreed that an optimal hypertrophy workout sequence was:

1 - Pump work

2 - “heavy work”

3 - “hypertrophy work”

4 - Training a muscle in the stretched position, and/or Explosive work on a pumped muscle
[/quote]

Do you, or anyone really, think it would be a viable option to use one exercise to utilize more than 1 of those 4 purposes/sequence (I don’t know the best word here) within 1 exercise? Say, do a stretch movement for 4x12 with 3 second eccentrics? Using one of your examples, doing the leg extensions 4x12 with a 3 second eccentric while focusing on getting a full stretch at the bottom? That would be considered both hypertrophy work and stretch work.

I’m more playing around with ideas for structuring exercises for biceps/triceps and incorporating a different variety of stimulus’s without doing 4 exercises for such a small muscle.

EDIT: I’m not saying it’s a necessity to hit all 4 things, or even that those are the only 4 things that should be focused on, just trying to think about things and the why’s involved.

490

[quote]staystrong wrote:

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:

I know CT and Meadows have laid out this kind of method before, and they both generally agreed that an optimal hypertrophy workout sequence was:

1 - Pump work

2 - “heavy work”

3 - “hypertrophy work”

4 - Training a muscle in the stretched position, and/or Explosive work on a pumped muscle
[/quote]

Do you, or anyone really, think it would be a viable option to use one exercise to utilize more than 1 of those 4 purposes/sequence (I don’t know the best word here) within 1 exercise? Say, do a stretch movement for 4x12 with 3 second eccentrics? Using one of your examples, doing the leg extensions 4x12 with a 3 second eccentric while focusing on getting a full stretch at the bottom? That would be considered both hypertrophy work and stretch work.

I’m more playing around with ideas for structuring exercises for biceps/triceps and incorporating a different variety of stimulus’s without doing 4 exercises for such a small muscle.

EDIT: I’m not saying it’s a necessity to hit all 4 things, or even that those are the only 4 things that should be focused on, just trying to think about things and the why’s involved.[/quote]

I used to do this with squats, with some success. I would do more reps than normal for my “warm up” sets, sometimes using intensifiers; then when I got to my more “strength”-type rep range for weight, would do normal pyramiding up to work sets (eg 5x5). Then I’d typically finish off with a widowmaker, sometimes two.

So squats might look like this (this is a session I remember doing two years ago):

light sets
315-385, pyramid up, 3 second descents, 10 reps
longer rest period
405-435, pyramid up, enough reps to get used to the weight. 435 as work weight.
longer rest
315x26 (as many as could be done)
3 minute rest
315xfailure (I think I got like 12 or 15 lol…I was smoked)

491

Hey Stu,

Been a lot of chatter (some of it started by yours truly), but we haven’t gotten an update on your recovery. How are you doing? How goes your recovery? I hope all is well. Let us know!

–Me

492

[quote]staystrong wrote:

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:

I know CT and Meadows have laid out this kind of method before, and they both generally agreed that an optimal hypertrophy workout sequence was:

1 - Pump work

2 - “heavy work”

3 - “hypertrophy work”

4 - Training a muscle in the stretched position, and/or Explosive work on a pumped muscle
[/quote]

Do you, or anyone really, think it would be a viable option to use one exercise to utilize more than 1 of those 4 purposes/sequence (I don’t know the best word here) within 1 exercise? Say, do a stretch movement for 4x12 with 3 second eccentrics? Using one of your examples, doing the leg extensions 4x12 with a 3 second eccentric while focusing on getting a full stretch at the bottom? That would be considered both hypertrophy work and stretch work.

I’m more playing around with ideas for structuring exercises for biceps/triceps and incorporating a different variety of stimulus’s without doing 4 exercises for such a small muscle.

EDIT: I’m not saying it’s a necessity to hit all 4 things, or even that those are the only 4 things that should be focused on, just trying to think about things and the why’s involved.[/quote]

Sure… Except with arms :wink: The arms a bit trickier because between the biceps and triceps you actually have 5 different muscles (if not more if you want to talk about the forearms, brachialis, etc…) so its beneficial to use different exercises. Just as a quick for-instance. Biceps could be BB Curls, Hammer Curls, and Reverse Curls. You simply wouldn’t get the same effect out of just doing curls, curls, curls

CT’s “layer system” is actually based around that exact idea (One exercise used for multiple “rep ranges”). It isn’t a “pure body building” program, of which the ONLY goal is maximal hypertrophy like a Meadows layout, but it does the trick. It also doesn’t focus on body parts, but movements.

It would look like this for any big exercise. Only one lift a day:

Layer 1 - Ramp to 3RM

Layer 2 - 90% of layer 1, Cluster sets (do singles with 5-10 seconds of rest until you feel you will miss the next rep, stop here). 3 sets

Layer 3 - Heavy Density Lifting (HDL) - “Hard 5’s” - using 90% of layer 2, do 3 sets of 5 with 15 seconds rest in between sets. repeat 2 times.

Layer 4 - Explosive lifting - 8x3 @ 50% of layer 1, minimal rest in between sets OR “Max Pump” which is a set of 5/4/3/2/1 reps with an isometric hold of as many seconds in the mid positionas “rest”

This is a verrrry simplified explanation, if you want more info including the split, good exercises to use, other layers, where to add other work, check out here: T - Competitive Bodybuilding - Forums - T Nation

493

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:

[quote]staystrong wrote:

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:

I know CT and Meadows have laid out this kind of method before, and they both generally agreed that an optimal hypertrophy workout sequence was:

1 - Pump work

2 - “heavy work”

3 - “hypertrophy work”

4 - Training a muscle in the stretched position, and/or Explosive work on a pumped muscle
[/quote]

Do you, or anyone really, think it would be a viable option to use one exercise to utilize more than 1 of those 4 purposes/sequence (I don’t know the best word here) within 1 exercise? Say, do a stretch movement for 4x12 with 3 second eccentrics? Using one of your examples, doing the leg extensions 4x12 with a 3 second eccentric while focusing on getting a full stretch at the bottom? That would be considered both hypertrophy work and stretch work.

I’m more playing around with ideas for structuring exercises for biceps/triceps and incorporating a different variety of stimulus’s without doing 4 exercises for such a small muscle.

EDIT: I’m not saying it’s a necessity to hit all 4 things, or even that those are the only 4 things that should be focused on, just trying to think about things and the why’s involved.[/quote]

Sure… Except with arms :wink: The arms a bit trickier because between the biceps and triceps you actually have 5 different muscles (if not more if you want to talk about the forearms, brachialis, etc…) so its beneficial to use different exercises. Just as a quick for-instance. Biceps could be BB Curls, Hammer Curls, and Reverse Curls. You simply wouldn’t get the same effect out of just doing curls, curls, curls

CT’s “layer system” is actually based around that exact idea (One exercise used for multiple “rep ranges”). It isn’t a “pure body building” program, of which the ONLY goal is maximal hypertrophy like a Meadows layout, but it does the trick. It also doesn’t focus on body parts, but movements.

It would look like this for any big exercise. Only one lift a day:

Layer 1 - Ramp to 3RM

Layer 2 - 90% of layer 1, Cluster sets (do singles with 5-10 seconds of rest until you feel you will miss the next rep, stop here). 3 sets

Layer 3 - Heavy Density Lifting (HDL) - “Hard 5’s” - using 90% of layer 2, do 3 sets of 5 with 15 seconds rest in between sets. repeat 2 times.

Layer 4 - Explosive lifting - 8x3 @ 50% of layer 1, minimal rest in between sets OR “Max Pump” which is a set of 5/4/3/2/1 reps with an isometric hold of as many seconds in the mid positionas “rest”

This is a verrrry simplified explanation, if you want more info including the split, good exercises to use, other layers, where to add other work, check out here: T - Competitive Bodybuilding - Forums - T Nation

Thanks Lonnie, I’ll check out the link and kick the idea around some more.

494

[quote]kravi wrote:
Hey Stu,

Been a lot of chatter (some of it started by yours truly), but we haven’t gotten an update on your recovery. How are you doing? How goes your recovery? I hope all is well. Let us know!

–Me[/quote]

Things are going as well as can be expected considering the surgery was just 8.5 weeks ago. I’m doing the majority of my training at the Performance Center where I go for PT, so I’ve got access to anything a pro athlete or trainer would need.

I’m still unable to do any direct bicep or chest work, and shoulder stuff is very limited (mostly rotator and trap movements), but I’m certainly not complaining about hitting back so frequently. Hopefully it’ll help me fill out my shirts until I get the full go ahead in another couple of months.

It’s funny, but I go back and forth between thinking that it’s good and bad that I kind of know what to expect from my previous shoulder rehab. It bad because I know the discomfort is gonna be there for a while, and I’m getting a little pissy when someone asks me every day how the shoulder’s feeling. It’s good that I have an idea how long I’ll be “rehabbing” and not having that mental M.O. that I do when I’m “training”.

42 is coming up for me in a few months so I do realize that I’m lucky to still be somewhat in the game at all, especially with my family pre-disposition and all the beatings I’ve subjected my body to over the years. I see a heck of a lot of people much younger than I am with much worse injuries as well as prognosises (prognosi? -lol)

It’s not always easy, but it helps to keep proper perspective sometimes :slight_smile:

S

495

Stu, I’ve seen you mention numerous times about some exercises you used your lower traps/mid back region and came across something that’s always bugged me a bit. If you don’t mind, I have a couple of questions about BB front raises on an incline bench.

  1. Do you use a standard olympic barbell for that? Even unweighted, that seems really heavy for that movement. Looking around online, when people do Y raises (granted, usually with DB’s) it doesn’t seem like an exercise that leads to a lot of weight being used. Or do you use a smaller, lighter barbell? I know my gym has some lighter barbells, but they aren’t really that wide. And I’ve seen you emphasize a very wide grip, so I can’t imagine a grip only a few inches wider than shoulder width is what you mean. I’m picturing hands only a few inches from the end of the grip/near the weights.

  2. When I’ve tried doing this movement in the past with DB’s or cables (trap 3 raises), I ALWAYS felt my anterior delt take over. Looking at the movement, that makes sense to me since it’s a front raise. Do you have any tips to shift focus on the lower traps? Maybe use a low incline? Is the purpose of the wider grip to help minimize anterior delts?

  3. How high would you raise the bar? Parallel to floor, or as high as you can get it to try and get your lower traps to move through a greater ROM?

  4. Do you worry about retracting or pulling the scapula down at all or let your shoulders roll forward?

It feels like I’m making this over-complicated yet this movement isn’t clicking in my head for some reason even if I experiment a bit in the gym and I can’t find a video online.

496

I’m not Stu, but I do that exercise a lot for my upper back as it trains upward scapular rotation, which has been invaluable for rehabbing my jacked up shoulders.

I use two dumbells with a hammer grip, and raise them up straight in front of me instead of a Y. I feel that hits my mid/lower traps better. I know a lot of people prefer the Y but I don’t get a burn in my mid/lower traps with a Y movement the way I do when my arms are straight in front of me.

If you’re feeling your anterior delts doing all the work you are lowering the dumbells too far. The portion of the ROM that works the mid/lower traps is actually quite small. Be sure to pause and squeeze in the top position. You WILL need to use lighter dumbbells than you expect.

And yeah, a low incline works best, IMO.

Hope that helps!

497

[quote]Yogi wrote:
I’m not Stu, but I do that exercise a lot for my upper back as it trains upward scapular rotation, which has been invaluable for rehabbing my jacked up shoulders.

I use two dumbells with a hammer grip, and raise them up straight in front of me instead of a Y. I feel that hits my mid/lower traps better. I know a lot of people prefer the Y but I don’t get a burn in my mid/lower traps with a Y movement the way I do when my arms are straight in front of me.

If you’re feeling your anterior delts doing all the work you are lowering the dumbells too far. The portion of the ROM that works the mid/lower traps is actually quite small. Be sure to pause and squeeze in the top position. You WILL need to use lighter dumbbells than you expect.

And yeah, a low incline works best, IMO.

Hope that helps![/quote]

Hey man I’m pretty happy you responded, you’re someone who knows his stuff and any advice you have to give I’m glad to take! I have some shoulder “weirdness” myself and became obsessed with trying to improve my mid back a year or so ago but never could get the movement right.

Tomorrow is my shoulder day so Ill get to try this movement out! Actually pretty excited lol, been thinking about it on and off all day today.

498

[quote]staystrong wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
I’m not Stu, but I do that exercise a lot for my upper back as it trains upward scapular rotation, which has been invaluable for rehabbing my jacked up shoulders.

I use two dumbells with a hammer grip, and raise them up straight in front of me instead of a Y. I feel that hits my mid/lower traps better. I know a lot of people prefer the Y but I don’t get a burn in my mid/lower traps with a Y movement the way I do when my arms are straight in front of me.

If you’re feeling your anterior delts doing all the work you are lowering the dumbells too far. The portion of the ROM that works the mid/lower traps is actually quite small. Be sure to pause and squeeze in the top position. You WILL need to use lighter dumbbells than you expect.

And yeah, a low incline works best, IMO.

Hope that helps![/quote]

Hey man I’m pretty happy you responded, you’re someone who knows his stuff and any advice you have to give I’m glad to take! I have some shoulder “weirdness” myself and became obsessed with trying to improve my mid back a year or so ago but never could get the movement right.

Tomorrow is my shoulder day so Ill get to try this movement out! Actually pretty excited lol, been thinking about it on and off all day today.[/quote]

thanks for the kind words mate, but I’m small potatoes compared to some of the dudes on here.

One last thing about the prone trap raise is that it’s great to include as part of your warm up on pressing days.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

499

^ went pretty well! Set incline about 30 degrees, grabbed the 5 pounders and stayed near the top part of the movement so the db only went maybe A foot lower than my head ever. Still felt my delts but could also feel my mid back after a few reps. My mid back was really sore from back day yesterday though (tried those cable scap retractions stu mentioned on his previous contest thread. Worked pretty well!) so I’m sure that helped me feel my mid back.

you weren’t kidding about the light db! Definitely not a movement I’ll be moving heavy weight for!

But thanks again, I’ll keep playing around with these and see if I can tweak my form a bit more to really put the stress on my back

500

[quote]staystrong wrote:
Stu, I’ve seen you mention numerous times about some exercises you used your lower traps/mid back region and came across something that’s always bugged me a bit. If you don’t mind, I have a couple of questions about BB front raises on an incline bench.[/quote]

Okay, I see that Yogi was able to help you out. I’ll go through your specific questions anyway, just trying to cover all the bases I guess :slight_smile:

[quote]

  1. Do you use a standard olympic barbell for that? Even unweighted, that seems really heavy for that movement. Looking around online, when people do Y raises (granted, usually with DB’s) it doesn’t seem like an exercise that leads to a lot of weight being used. Or do you use a smaller, lighter barbell? I know my gym has some lighter barbells, but they aren’t really that wide. And I’ve seen you emphasize a very wide grip, so I can’t imagine a grip only a few inches wider than shoulder width is what you mean. I’m picturing hands only a few inches from the end of the grip/near the weights.[/quote]

I usually grab one of the pre-loaded (and welded) BBs. A light warmup with 40 or so, and then 60, 70, MAYBE 80 or 90 on a strong day, but always focusing more on contracting my intended target muscles than just trying to throw a heavy weight. My hand spacing is fairly wide, and I’m not really trying to do this as an upright row, or a front raise. I’m trying my damndest to get involvement from my lower traps. That means that if I keep my spacing to familiar to the other movements I just mentioned, I have no doubt my anterior delts will take over.

[quote]
2. When I’ve tried doing this movement in the past with DB’s or cables (trap 3 raises), I ALWAYS felt my anterior delt take over. Looking at the movement, that makes sense to me since it’s a front raise. Do you have any tips to shift focus on the lower traps? Maybe use a low incline? Is the purpose of the wider grip to help minimize anterior delts? [/quote]

Exactly! Wider grip, and having a prone grip (palms down) to grasp the barbell, forces you to keep your elbows out, making it quite a bit different from the way you would typically do a front raise.

[quote]
3. How high would you raise the bar? Parallel to floor, or as high as you can get it to try and get your lower traps to move through a greater ROM? [/quote]

I would go to about my head height, or even an inch or so above it. Whatever point comfortably (relatively!) gave me that good “crunch” in the lower trap area.

[quote]
4. Do you worry about retracting or pulling the scapula down at all or let your shoulders roll forward?[/quote]

I didn’t consciously think about any retraction, but I also didn’t allow the to roll forward. Definitely see what allows you to better feel it.

[quote]
It feels like I’m making this over-complicated yet this movement isn’t clicking in my head for some reason even if I experiment a bit in the gym and I can’t find a video online.[/quote]

Yeah, I realized recently that I don’t have any old videos of this movement. As I’m still in rehab for my shoulder, I can’t really go out and get one for ya, but hopefully the few explanations on here from me and a couple of others has helped somewhat. I know it’s definitely an awkward thing to describe, but it’s also an amazing feeling when the movemnt clicks for you and you realize that you’ve never really hit that area of your back before with any type of rows or shrugs.

^I just love these -lol. I showed them to a few of the guys when I was out in Colorado last time, and everyone became instant fans. The funny thing is that I owe my initial discover of them to when I had a forearm injury, and couldn’t do overhand pullups or pulldowns without serious discomfort. So by trying to train around my injured arm, I found a great approach to really isolate my back. These, combined with the incline trap raise can do wonders for that upper mid-back / rear double bicep muscles!

S