(Mighty) Stu Yellin, WNBF Pro Updates n Q&A

Training
461

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Lonnie- here’s a question you might have a better background to answer than I do in discussing Kravi’s questions:

We all know that excess protein can eventually be broken down and used to create sugars (carbs), but in such cases, do we see a lesser, if at all, insulin release than if straight carbs were ingested via food sources?

KRAVI- You’re right to guess higher in regard to cal intake to start with. It’s always easier to take small steps downward as you observe reactions. Speaking of reactions, I know you feel that you do better on low fat diets, but I’ve seen many people who have had to take different approaches to cutting up at different points in their lives. Sure, there are plenty of factors, but in the case of intelligently adding a bit more healthy fats to your daily intake, especially if you spread them out, it can not only add a nice healthy benefit, but it will be much easier to fit in the extra 500 cals you’re looking for than if you tried to wedge in more proteins or carbs.

I’m sure you’re finding that there’s always going to be a ton of info out there that doesn’t always line up. I think the best anyone can do is to take everything into consideration, and pay attention to how approaches pan out on an individual basis. Obviously talking to people like Lonnie (RN), or even Brick on here (RD) will always get you opinions that reflect not just a medical background, but an understanding of what any health and physique conscious person would want or need.

S[/quote]

Thanks for the response, Stuart! You are quite correct in that I have no other choice :slight_smile: If I must get to, say, 2500 calories and I’ve already maxed out on protein and carbs (for me, that is) at 2000 calories, then I don’t have much choice but to slurp down 500 calories worth of raw coconut oil (which is, to be honest, gross. And yes, I can just eat some more fat with my meals instead of eating raw fats, I’m being a bit tongue in cheek) :smiley:

–Me

462

[quote]kravi wrote:
You are quite correct in that I have no other choice :slight_smile: If I must get to, say, 2500 calories and I’ve already maxed out on protein and carbs (for me, that is) at 2000 calories, then I don’t have much choice but to slurp down 500 calories worth of raw coconut oil (which is, to be honest, gross. And yes, I can just eat some more fat with my meals instead of eating raw fats, I’m being a bit tongue in cheek) :smiley:

–Me[/quote]

You could also swap out some of your (I’m assuming) leaner protein sources for ones containing a bit more fats too. Personally, I’m a big fan of sardines, which let me fit the bill for both P+F.

S

463

Stu - That question is a bit above my pay grade, as they say. I dont know enough about that to answer that intelligently. Maybe Kravi can find and ask Brickhouse as you suggested.

Kravi - thanks for the info. I think it helped all of us get to know your situation much better, although honestly it sounds like you have a very, very good handle on your situation, even down to knowing when you’ve eaten too much protein. We are simply adding icing on the cake (but don’t eat the icing… you will die)

I like your “I just picked 2500 and am going from there” because honestly that’s really the only way to do it. You could plug in your numbers to some fancy 6 variable “metabolic rate calculator” … But how accurate is it? Who knows. The ONLY way to do it is to try and and see, which you are already doing and its working.

I think 2500 is a great number to start at for you, and it sounds like you are losing “The right amount” of weight for now. About 1-2 pounds a week in the start of a diet is a great rate. The MOST CRITICAL part of any diet, in my opinion, is finding that first amount of food that allows you to lose 1-2 pounds a week without any cardio. Then from there it really is as simple, usually, as “eat less, move more.” I actually may write another article for this site about that soon.

Others above me, and you, have already figured out what I was going to say… You are in a unique situation and your only choice is to add fats its seems. Although as mentioned above you are currently at what seems to be a good calorie level, so dont add anything else on top of it until you reach your target weight.

So I think the best course of action from here on out is to keep your current macros and calories until you stall for 2 consecutive weeks, then either add cardio or lower calories, rinse and repeat until you are as lean as you want to be, then slowly reverse this process.

464

Stu,

I LOOOOOVE sardines too. Also smelt (which are even better on good crackers, but I can’t eat crackers…). But vodka, sardines and pickles makes a very tasty evening snack.

So I’m losing weight a bit faster these days, but my strength is still increasing. Does anyone know if being a fatass allows you to lose weight faster without losing muscle? How much of the whole 1.5 lbs/week is for folks who are already lean and trying to get contest lean? I’m 5’9", and in the past week (last Friday) went from 213.8 to 210.8 lbs (I’m looking at the numbers right now). I have a feeling guys who are not already fairly lean can drop weight a bit faster than folks who already are lean, but maybe I’m making that up.

I feel great, my energy is up, so how risky is it that I’m apparently losing 3 pounds a week? Should I increase my diet a bit to limit myself to 1.5lbs/week loss, or keep going and then ease up if I feel my strength plateauing? Oh, I also gave up booze for the month of January to help motivate me. That may continue. If you are going to drink non-alcoholic beer, btw, Becks wins hands down. The only one which isn’t sweet and kinda/sorta tastes like beer.

–Me

465

[quote]I actually may write another article for this site about that soon.
[/quote]

Lonnie,
Did I miss something?
You wrote an article for T-Nation?

466

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
Stu,

This may have been addressed above, but I have two related questions:

Have you coached someone for a physique competition? How would you say that training and prepping for a physique competition differs from a bodybuilding competition?[/quote]

I recently worked with one young man (21 I believe) for his first show, and the very first thing we did - as I always do - is to take a solid look at his current plan, and see if he’s training his body in a way that addresses difficult as well as easy to grow bodyparts properly to come as close as possible to that ideal look.
S[/quote]

Did this affect training frequency, or just exercise selection? Do you recommend de-emphasizing leg training, or do you think that serious, dedicated leg training is still necessary to maximize muscle gains?

467

[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:

[quote]I actually may write another article for this site about that soon.
[/quote]

Lonnie,
Did I miss something?
You wrote an article for T-Nation?[/quote]

Some years back at this point.

I actually submitted a few more but they were a bit too general in scope. I think this topic is up my alley and is on point enough that it would work though.

468

Thanks for the reply Stu.

I think the problem is that I had “bodybuilding muscles”. That is, since I wasn’t practicing any sports for most of my time lifting, my muscles lost the ability to contract “dynamically” as they got used to the really long stretching and contracting that occurs in bodybuilding (completely the opposite of how a muscle works when running for example).

I lost quite a bit of muscle and am now going to be rebuilding it while running and doing crossfit, which should make them better able to function in sports.

Right now I’m doing a push/pull/legs split. I do at least 30 min of hard cardio after every session and take days off when I feel like I need to recover. As I feel better I will start adding in crossfit and start playing soccer again. So in the end I will be doing both weightlifting and cardio anywhere from 3-5 times a week. It will look something like this:

Monday: legs followed by crossfit
Tuesday: pull followed by crossfit
Wednesday: push followed by crossfit
Thursday: soccer or rest day
Friday: soccer, cardio or rest day (I’ll only have one of these days as a rest day.
Saturday: soccer or easy bodybuilding (aesthetic) training
Sunday: easy bodybuilding training

I’m also following a diet to get really lean (much leaner than profile picture). Pretty much all I’m doing is making sure I’m in a deficit Mon-Fri by making sure I know that I am hungry when I go to sleep. I’m taking 10 gr EAAs (5 gr leucine per serving) in the morning and wait a while until I’m hungry and eat. I try to minimize carbs and have them around my workout (pre-workout, intra and post) but if I have them at some other time I won’t worry about it as long as I’m going to bed slightly hungry. On the weekends I’ll eat a lot more carbs in order to fill up (two mini cheat days where I try to be around 500 cal over maintenance).

So basically I make sure to have protein with at least 5 gr leucine every 2-3 hours in order to avoid muscle loss and eat fat and carbs according to my energy levels and how I feel.

What do you think?

469

[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
Did this affect training frequency, or just exercise selection? Do you recommend de-emphasizing leg training, or do you think that serious, dedicated leg training is still necessary to maximize muscle gains?[/quote]

It all depends on the physique we’re working with, as well as the ideal we’re working towards. Sometimes you can double up frequency on a certain bodypart even while on a cut, other times it’s just too much for the individual. Obviously I think selection makes a big difference, because the goal is to have a specific look, a certain symmetry, and if you’ve blindly been a slave to one exercise for years, yet it hasn’t yielded the results you’re after, then a change needs to be made.

As far as leg work, even though the lower body isn’t judged in Physique as much as in BBing, I have yet to find a single person who wants to totally ignore half of his body. Of course not needing to deal with the same amount of volume does factor in to how much stress you’re applying each week in terms of weight work and cardio.

S

470

[quote]myself1992 wrote:
Thanks for the reply Stu.

I think the problem is that I had “bodybuilding muscles”. That is, since I wasn’t practicing any sports for most of my time lifting, my muscles lost the ability to contract “dynamically” as they got used to the really long stretching and contracting that occurs in bodybuilding (completely the opposite of how a muscle works when running for example).

I lost quite a bit of muscle and am now going to be rebuilding it while running and doing crossfit, which should make them better able to function in sports.

Right now I’m doing a push/pull/legs split. I do at least 30 min of hard cardio after every session and take days off when I feel like I need to recover. As I feel better I will start adding in crossfit and start playing soccer again. So in the end I will be doing both weightlifting and cardio anywhere from 3-5 times a week. It will look something like this:

Monday: legs followed by crossfit
Tuesday: pull followed by crossfit
Wednesday: push followed by crossfit
Thursday: soccer or rest day
Friday: soccer, cardio or rest day (I’ll only have one of these days as a rest day.
Saturday: soccer or easy bodybuilding (aesthetic) training
Sunday: easy bodybuilding training

I’m also following a diet to get really lean (much leaner than profile picture). Pretty much all I’m doing is making sure I’m in a deficit Mon-Fri by making sure I know that I am hungry when I go to sleep. I’m taking 10 gr EAAs (5 gr leucine per serving) in the morning and wait a while until I’m hungry and eat. I try to minimize carbs and have them around my workout (pre-workout, intra and post) but if I have them at some other time I won’t worry about it as long as I’m going to bed slightly hungry. On the weekends I’ll eat a lot more carbs in order to fill up (two mini cheat days where I try to be around 500 cal over maintenance).

So basically I make sure to have protein with at least 5 gr leucine every 2-3 hours in order to avoid muscle loss and eat fat and carbs according to my energy levels and how I feel.

What do you think?

[/quote]

Well, I’d say that if your issue was a lack of functional muscle (you appeared muscular, but weren’t used to effectively performing in sports or athletic type activities), I’m sure the inclusion of crossfit style work combined with varied cardio will provide a much different approach than the typical gym rat “move weight from point A to point B, using only this muscle.” Of course I’m obviously oversimplifying what bodybuilder do, but again, it is very different than sports specific training.

The Push/Pull/Legs split is a good choice, as it keeps your weight work to a limited number of days (no crazy 7 day bodypart breakdowns!), will require a limited amount of exercises for each - so not crazy recovery issues, and will most likely revolve around a lot of compound/overlaping movements.

I will point out though, and I’m certainly no crossfit expert here, that doing explosive type movements AFTER you might be reasonably fatigued from more hypertrophy based work, can be an issue in terms of fatigue. THere have been a few bad crossfit injuries documented where the criticisms have always included poor sequencing of exercises. I know that when I was on the Track and Field team in school, even though we all wanted to hit the weights (I thew shotput and disc), our coach wouldn’t let us until after we had actually practiced our events for the day.

Diet wise, I like the target carb approach, as well as the intelligent use of Aminos. The added carbs on weekends will also ensure that you’re starting each week topped off, which is something to consider when programming and even assessing your week. When I first started playing with rotating carbs, I would do low m-f and then high on weekends. When MOnday rolled around, I looked all swole and was strong as hell. By the time Friday arrived, I was looking a bit depleted, and even though I could train hard, it wasn’t the same as on MOndays. Of course how depleted you feel will be dependent on how many carbs you’re taking during the week, how fatiguing your training is, and how well you’re recovering.

All in all, it sounds like you’ve given this some consideration, and I wouldn’t worry. Just always pay attention, and be willing to adjust as you go. Even the best trainers don’t always guess right 100% of the time.

S

471

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Obviously I think selection makes a big difference, because the goal is to have a specific look, a certain symmetry, and if you’ve blindly been a slave to one exercise for years, yet it hasn’t yielded the results you’re after, then a change needs to be made.
[/quote]

Stu,
I’d love to get your thoughts on something. I am leaning more and more toward the bodybuilding side of things, after years of chasing weights.

As such, I am starting to judge my workouts more by the pump I get afterward. So on back day I am looking for lats that sag off my back like back-boobs, traps that look like small mountanis, etc. On a push, I am looking for my arms to completely obscure my lats because the triceps are so engorged, a chest and shoulders to pumped and wide that I can’t fit through the door, etc. You get the picture.

I still strive for progressive overload in terms of weight, volume, density, etc, but I also make sure I that I look the way I want to look afterward.

I figured if I am pumped where I want to be pumped, than I stimulated what I want to stimulate and eventually, my non-pumped self will look more like my pumped self.

Does this make sense?

472

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:

[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:

[quote]I actually may write another article for this site about that soon.
[/quote]

Lonnie,
Did I miss something?
You wrote an article for T-Nation?[/quote]

Some years back at this point.

I actually submitted a few more but they were a bit too general in scope. I think this topic is up my alley and is on point enough that it would work though. [/quote]

Awesome, that was a good article, I remember reading it.

I hope you get more articles accepted.

473

One thing I’ve been wondering is how and whether you recommend altering exercise selection based on someone’s proportions and general body type. One example I’m specifically wondering about is waist width and heavy squatting: to wit, that perhaps for someone who has a naturally narrow waist, the squatting would be advantageous for leg development, while for someone with, eg, naturally thicker hips the tradeoff between the leg development from squatting is outweighed by the propensity to thicken the waist that comes with squatting. Not sure what another example would be, but that’s the general idea. So, should that factor into one’s exercise selection?

474

[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:
Stu,
I’d love to get your thoughts on something. I am leaning more and more toward the bodybuilding side of things, after years of chasing weights.

As such, I am starting to judge my workouts more by the pump I get afterward. So on back day I am looking for lats that sag off my back like back-boobs, traps that look like small mountanis, etc. On a push, I am looking for my arms to completely obscure my lats because the triceps are so engorged, a chest and shoulders to pumped and wide that I can’t fit through the door, etc. You get the picture.

I still strive for progressive overload in terms of weight, volume, density, etc, but I also make sure I that I look the way I want to look afterward.

I figured if I am pumped where I want to be pumped, than I stimulated what I want to stimulate and eventually, my non-pumped self will look more like my pumped self.

Does this make sense?[/quote]

I understand what you’re saying. There are so many variables in regard to gauging whether a session is productive or not, that it can just get downright confusing. I’ve often found myself telling people that soreness doesn’t indicate growth, nor does a good pump. However, as there are several different pathways or mechanisms that CAN contribute to hypertrophy, we can expand on the statement regarding the pump.

While we all loved the temporary water bloat from creatine when it first hit the market, we learned that having more water in a muscle cell actualy did contribute to a more anabolic environment. Greater cell hydrations can stimulate increases in protein synthesis. So any type of training that creates a decent pump (“cell swelling” for those who read the nsca-jscr), will be bringing more water as well as 3+ g or carbs per gram of water into their muscle cells, and thereby possibly increasing the synthesis of new proteins.

Now, the idea of your non-pumped self looking like your pumped self is a great goal (not sure how scientifically we can support a general description though -lol), but remember that even in view of the actual benefit the pump can create in the whole process of hypertrophic training, a certain amount is sure to be a temporary situation.

Combining your pump-seeking, with overload, continuous tension of target muscles, optimal training variables (intensity, rests, rep ranges etc), along with proper nutrition and recovery - something I know that you know all about! - I’m sure you’ll continue to progress very well.

Just remember (and this is more for the newer trainers reading along), that the pump is just one of many variables and approaches in what can often seem to be a very complicated puzzle. It may work great as a stand alone for some, yet yield nothing for others. Take it all in stride.

S

475

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:
Stu,
I’d love to get your thoughts on something. I am leaning more and more toward the bodybuilding side of things, after years of chasing weights.

As such, I am starting to judge my workouts more by the pump I get afterward. So on back day I am looking for lats that sag off my back like back-boobs, traps that look like small mountanis, etc. On a push, I am looking for my arms to completely obscure my lats because the triceps are so engorged, a chest and shoulders to pumped and wide that I can’t fit through the door, etc. You get the picture.

I still strive for progressive overload in terms of weight, volume, density, etc, but I also make sure I that I look the way I want to look afterward.

I figured if I am pumped where I want to be pumped, than I stimulated what I want to stimulate and eventually, my non-pumped self will look more like my pumped self.

Does this make sense?[/quote]

I understand what you’re saying. There are so many variables in regard to gauging whether a session is productive or not, that it can just get downright confusing. I’ve often found myself telling people that soreness doesn’t indicate growth [/quote]

Good example of this: I ran a marathon in 2010. The next day, in addition to the expected crippling stiffness/soreness in my legs, both biceps were sore! No, I didn’t hold those baby DBs while I ran like the soccer moms do; rather, simply keeping both arms at ~90o angle for 4 hours was enough to make them sore. But despite the soreness, I seriously doubt my biceps grew from this ‘workout.’

476

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
Good example of this: I ran a marathon in 2010. The next day, in addition to the expected crippling stiffness/soreness in my legs, both biceps were sore! No, I didn’t hold those baby DBs while I ran like the soccer moms do; rather, simply keeping both arms at ~90o angle for 4 hours was enough to make them sore. But despite the soreness, I seriously doubt my biceps grew from this ‘workout.’[/quote]

I had the exact same experience. It’s funny - I recall looking at my post-race picture and thinking that my biceps looked pretty “pumped” (relative to my own size, of course). Sadly, the pump from the marathon did not last, and I doubt this will come into vogue as a pre-show pumping technique :slight_smile:

477

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I understand what you’re saying. There are so many variables in regard to gauging whether a session is productive or not, that it can just get downright confusing. I’ve often found myself telling people that soreness doesn’t indicate growth, nor does a good pump. However, as there are several different pathways or mechanisms that CAN contribute to hypertrophy, we can expand on the statement regarding the pump.

While we all loved the temporary water bloat from creatine when it first hit the market, we learned that having more water in a muscle cell actualy did contribute to a more anabolic environment. Greater cell hydrations can stimulate increases in protein synthesis. So any type of training that creates a decent pump (“cell swelling” for those who read the nsca-jscr), will be bringing more water as well as 3+ g or carbs per gram of water into their muscle cells, and thereby possibly increasing the synthesis of new proteins.

Now, the idea of your non-pumped self looking like your pumped self is a great goal (not sure how scientifically we can support a general description though -lol), but remember that even in view of the actual benefit the pump can create in the whole process of hypertrophic training, a certain amount is sure to be a temporary situation.

Combining your pump-seeking, with overload, continuous tension of target muscles, optimal training variables (intensity, rests, rep ranges etc), along with proper nutrition and recovery - something I know that you know all about! - I’m sure you’ll continue to progress very well.

Just remember (and this is more for the newer trainers reading along), that the pump is just one of many variables and approaches in what can often seem to be a very complicated puzzle. It may work great as a stand alone for some, yet yield nothing for others. Take it all in stride.

S
[/quote]

Thanks for the detailed response.

Yes, I am considering the other variables as well. I typically have a mix of stimuli starting with heavy exercise and gradually moving on to more isolation and constant tension.

I might be weird in that I do not enjoy pumping work by itself, but I do find it rewarding after having logged some heavier weights.

Like the second to last sentence in your post; I was one of those guys that, alone, pumping never yielded me any benefits. But in conjunction with my heavy work, I am finding it beneficial.

478

Stu,

In a 2012 post, you wrote this:

"Some people will be able to lock down their essentials (protein and healthy fats), and then add ‘unlimited’ carbs until they reach their numbers. Other people won’t. It will really come down to how quickly your body begins to put on adipose, and how comfortable you are with those levels. If you’re willing to get 15-20%, then you may not care if your insulin sensitivity is a little off and you soften up quicker than someone else might.

I know people get sick of the “it’s an individualized thing” answer, but often, even we we do understand the basic processes that we’re addressing (juggling), that’s going to be the ultimate test of whether our approach works or not. Cordova described his approach to diet in an old article similar to what I mentioned in the thread you referred to. He talked about “filling in the rest” with carbs. Obviously Jim has one hell of a metabolism, and as great and humble of a guy as he is, people do joke about how he could get away dieting on burritos and still look amazing. "

Here’s my question:

I train early in the morning (5:30am). For certain health reasons, I can only eat late at night (~9:30pm-~11:30pm). In a sense, I’m essentially an intermittent fasting person who has a very small “window,” but whose window is not able to correspond to the postworkout window (which, I know, is debatable/potentially broscience/etc). Given those timing issues, would you still suggest hitting the “essentials (protein/healthy fats)” and then filling out the rest with carbs? Or would you hit a minimum carb amount to create an insulin response but focus more on higher protein and fat intake?

I understand, as you say in that quote above, that it’s going to be an individual response. But I just wanted to get your thoughts on the “in theory” level about what would be most effective for someone who is trying to put on lean mass.

Edit, didn’t say Thanks!

479

[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:

Yes, I am considering the other variables as well. I typically have a mix of stimuli starting with heavy exercise and gradually moving on to more isolation and constant tension.

I might be weird in that I do not enjoy pumping work by itself, but I do find it rewarding after having logged some heavier weights.

Like the second to last sentence in your post; I was one of those guys that, alone, pumping never yielded me any benefits. But in conjunction with my heavy work, I am finding it beneficial.[/quote]

I know CT and Meadows have laid out this kind of method before, and they both generally agreed that an optimal hypertrophy workout sequence was:

1 - Pump work

2 - “heavy work”

3 - “hypertrophy work”

4 - Training a muscle in the stretched position, and/or Explosive work on a pumped muscle

For for chest it might look like

1 - DB press, focus on squeeze and feel of chest muscle, up to a top 8 (to pump the chest with blood)

2 - Incline bench, 5x5 (now that we are pumped, heavy work)

3 - Decline smith Press, 4x12 with 3 second eccentrics (lighten the load to get that BBing volume work in)

4 - Explosive bench with pause on chest, 4x6 with approx 12rm (now that the BBing is “done” and the muscle is ultra pumped, finish off the high threshold motor units with the explosive work done out of the stretched position)

Legs might be:

1 - Hamstring Curls 4x12, 25 bottom partials on last set (to pump and “cushion” the next exercise)

2 - Squats, warm up and then heavy 4x6

3 - Leg press, 4x12, 3 second eccentrics, with a drop set on the last set

4 - Leg extension, 4x12 with deep stretch and contraction on every rep

5 - Stiff leg deads, 4x8 with deep stretch at the bottom

This “layering” as CT calls it or “sequencing” as Meadows calls it is a very intelligent way to set up a hypertrophy workout plan it seems.

480

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:

[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:

Yes, I am considering the other variables as well. I typically have a mix of stimuli starting with heavy exercise and gradually moving on to more isolation and constant tension.

I might be weird in that I do not enjoy pumping work by itself, but I do find it rewarding after having logged some heavier weights.

Like the second to last sentence in your post; I was one of those guys that, alone, pumping never yielded me any benefits. But in conjunction with my heavy work, I am finding it beneficial.[/quote]

I know CT and Meadows have laid out this kind of method before, and they both generally agreed that an optimal hypertrophy workout sequence was:

This “layering” as CT calls it or “sequencing” as Meadows calls it is a very intelligent way to set up a hypertrophy workout plan it seems.[/quote]

Meh, I’d be interested to hear Stu’s thoughts on this. I’d suspect that someone who’s been lifting for twenty years would say that a lot of this stuff is probably just the “latest and greatest” that will be replaced a year from now with the next fad, but maybe Stu will disagree. Sorta smells of the lamp to me, as most trends that are ultimately replaced do.