Mentzer vs. Weider

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

I’ve always used T-Nation’s workouts and principles in bodybuilding. I am challenging the ideals of the golden era of bodybuilding. Two tribes existed in known bodybuilding culture high intensity training and weider training principles.

For eight weeks I will take on the weider’s programs with before and after shots. Then Mike Mentzer’s training programs for eight weeks. To learn their programs I am doing Arnold’s suggest workouts from his encyclopedia, and from Mentzer’s book High Intensity Training. I will be running cross country at the same time so the results from either or may be sub par to what they could be on a strict bodybuilding fashion.

After I’m done I’ll post the results from both. The reason for this thread though is not a selfish boast, it is to see who else has tried this and what were their results and findings, which system did they think worked better.

2

Good thing you are giving each plenty of time to work…

3

Can’t wait to see the results. To get the most out of Mentzers abbreviated program you will have to apply a great amount of intensity.

Best of luck.

Michael

4

You better eat.

5

Seems like you should wait to do this when you’re not running cross country.

6

doing this with cross country will fail…

Why not do each program for like 24 weeks and then see the difference?? 8 weeks isn’t enough imo…

Gerdy

7

8 weeks…not enough time

Cross country will make this even worse

Personally, I feel you will not see the results you want out of Metzner style unless you have several years of quality training under your belt (which you may). JMO

8

[quote]tg2hbk4488 wrote:
8 weeks…not enough time

Cross country will make this even worse

Personally, I feel you will not see the results you want out of Metzner style unless you have several years of quality training under your belt (which you may). JMO[/quote]

I agree, Metzners style is for the already established Bodybuilder its not something I would try unless I was already a very well developed person

9

[quote]tnt2005 wrote:
For eight weeks I will take on the weider’s programs with before and after shots. Then Mike Mentzer’s training programs for eight weeks. To learn their programs I am doing Arnold’s suggest workouts from his encyclopedia, and from Mentzer’s book High Intensity Training. I will be running cross country at the same time so the results from either or may be sub par to what they could be on a strict bodybuilding fashion.

After I’m done I’ll post the results from both. The reason for this thread though is not a selfish boast, it is to see who else has tried this and what were their results and findings, which system did they think worked better.[/quote]

And if you did it the other way round? And if you left a 4 week gap between them? And if you changed your diet or ran more/less on either cycle?

Too many variable to claim anything at all from your study.

now if the variable were neutralized by testing a few hundred of you then the results may show something.

10

[quote]AngryVader wrote:
Seems like you should wait to do this when you’re not running cross country.[/quote]

yup

11

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Good thing you are giving each plenty of time to work… [/quote]

About tnt2005

Occupation: student, wreslter, gym owner
Weight: 140
Height: 5’8’’
Body fat %: 8
Years Training: 3

And even better that he’s such an experienced trainee who will easily be able to tell when he’s doing something wrong, what he’s doing wrong and how to train correctly with either style in the first place.

Shit dude, go build a base… (no, not the powerplant, infrantry barracks and refinery type)

12

I have to ask why the OP is even using a bodybuilding program(s) while “running cross country.” Seems to be completely divergent goals.

Either you want to be a distance runner or a bodybuilder. Weider and Metzer programs were not built for people trying to get the most out of their running distance.

Good luck to you, but I don’t think you will get much out of this study at all.

13

alright alot of questions, T-page hasn’t been updated in awhile I have built a solid base I feel because I’ve lifted for 4 years now and weigh 160 pounds. I have alot of dedication towards wrestling because I will need it to go through college.

Cross Country is a way to stay in shape, sure it works slow twitch fibers, burns calories and causes your protein and carbs to go to other sources other then building muscle. From coaches and teachers from camps I’ve talked to it is completely possible to maintain and put on muscle while running cross country.

Your making generilizations about my physique without truly seeing yes I should probably post you pictures of my current body type and so forth before I start this, so let me get a camera and I’ll make sure to do so. But I’m a mesomorph granted who gives a shit about somatypes, but just for the sake of my argument, and have relatively decent muscle attachment points for being able to reach at the very least average genetic potential.

Read Frank Zane’s science through bodybuilding for 40 years he knows his stuff. And the main point he claims now at his wise old age is everybody is different (yes seems extremely obvious). But it actually breaks down any generalizations we have on achieving hypertrophey about caloric intake and so forth.

As long as workouts are six hours prior to cross country such as 5 a.m. then going to school and with a meal every two hours things should go fine. It is ignorant on my behalf to not understand the help you are trying to give me so thank you for that.

Understandably cross country will not give me the complete results I want to help me in the sport of bodybuilding. But none the less bodybuilding does not wait for cross country.

On the idea that it needs to be done longer,your probably right. But I’ve found in my training expercience who to most of this site is yes probably insignificant. I have learned that my body responds best to an 8 week period of training then completely switching the system. Such as total body to split it completely shocks the body and for the next 8 weeks on something completely new little to no intensity techniques need to be used because of the body struggling to adapt.

Again thank you for all the suggestions and help. I should probably infact increase the training time period. For base though my stats are
arms: 15 1/2’’
legs: 24 1/2’’
calves 15 1/2’’
chest: 46’’
waist: 28’’ vacuum: 27’’
forearms: 13 1/2’’
neck: 17’’
weight as of 8-06-08 158.5 pounds
height 5’8’’
bf%:9%
all measurements except chest are cold.
deadlift: 300lbs
bench press: 250lbs
barbell curl: 110lbs
miltary press: 165lbs
squat: 320lbs

Now I will use the word generalization again because I made one. gswork you are completely correct and I’m being controdictory to my argument to disagree with you. There are way to many variables for it to be an expermint, and I claimed through Frank Zane everyone’s results would differ. Either way though it may represent one training style over another within a broad horizon.

Because I do accuratly in my opinion represent a bodybuilding base, I’ve reached the strength standards for Men according to Mass! a book written in the 80’s… And show sub par measurments but everything relatively balanced. The results may prove something if not more then any person who has the same fiber make up, genetics and numbers as me.

14

For a Mentzer type routine, I’d recommend something from around his Heavy Duty II period rather than from the book he finished just before his death. HD 2 calls for more frequent training, but is still a far cry from Arnold’s encyclopedia. Even after all these years, many in the HIT world still swear by HD 2.

15

[quote]tnt2005 wrote:
I’ve always used T-Nation’s workouts and principles in bodybuilding. I am challenging the ideals of the golden era of bodybuilding. Two tribes existed in known bodybuilding culture high intensity training and weider training principles.

For eight weeks I will take on the weider’s programs with before and after shots. Then Mike Mentzer’s training programs for eight weeks. To learn their programs I am doing Arnold’s suggest workouts from his encyclopedia, and from Mentzer’s book High Intensity Training. I will be running cross country at the same time so the results from either or may be sub par to what they could be on a strict bodybuilding fashion.

After I’m done I’ll post the results from both. The reason for this thread though is not a selfish boast, it is to see who else has tried this and what were their results and findings, which system did they think worked better.[/quote]

Do you have any idea the number of variables there are that somebody who would write a post like this would never even think of let alone know how to control? Especially in this short a time as Scott said.

Your results will be useless at best and a guaranteed waste of YOUR time. Here’s a free tip. Do what’s best for you and forget about trying to play doctor with yourself.

16

Judging by your weight and stats, it would appear that you would benefit more from something like WS4SB. Your squat and deadlift also need a lot of work, so you might want to take a break from the bench’n’curl workouts.

P.S. You mentioned that you are invested in wrestling (seeking a scholarship or something along those lines?) If that’s the case, why in the world are you doing bodybuilder workouts? I imagine you’d want to be increasing your strength/weight ratio and focus on more sport-specific exercises.

17

[quote]chitown34 wrote:
Judging by your weight and stats, it would appear that you would benefit more from something like WS4SB. Your squat and deadlift also need a lot of work, so you might want to take a break from the bench’n’curl workouts.

P.S. You mentioned that you are invested in wrestling (seeking a scholarship or something along those lines?) If that’s the case, why in the world are you doing bodybuilder workouts? I imagine you’d want to be increasing your strength/weight ratio and focus on more sport-specific exercises.[/quote]
because I love bodybuilding and like 98% of bodybuilders Arnold’s my hero. Wrestling is all technique

18

[quote]tnt2005 wrote:
chitown34 wrote:
Judging by your weight and stats, it would appear that you would benefit more from something like WS4SB. Your squat and deadlift also need a lot of work, so you might want to take a break from the bench’n’curl workouts.

P.S. You mentioned that you are invested in wrestling (seeking a scholarship or something along those lines?) If that’s the case, why in the world are you doing bodybuilder workouts? I imagine you’d want to be increasing your strength/weight ratio and focus on more sport-specific exercises.
because I love bodybuilding and like 98% of bodybuilders Arnold’s my hero. Wrestling is all technique

[/quote]

Technique is the most important out of many factors, but conditioning and strength are still important. You should be hitting hammies, glutes, and spinal erectors especially hard yet your lifts for those areas are by far the weakest. You have a decent bench and curl, but you seem to be neglecting your deadlifts, squats and power cleans (arguably the most important lifts for your sport!). The question you need to ask yourself is, do you want to be great at either wrestling or bodybuilding or mediocre at both?

19

[quote]chitown34 wrote:
tnt2005 wrote:
chitown34 wrote:
Judging by your weight and stats, it would appear that you would benefit more from something like WS4SB. Your squat and deadlift also need a lot of work, so you might want to take a break from the bench’n’curl workouts.

P.S. You mentioned that you are invested in wrestling (seeking a scholarship or something along those lines?) If that’s the case, why in the world are you doing bodybuilder workouts? I imagine you’d want to be increasing your strength/weight ratio and focus on more sport-specific exercises.

because I love bodybuilding and like 98% of bodybuilders Arnold’s my hero. Wrestling is all technique

Technique is the most important out of many factors, but conditioning and strength are still important. You should be hitting hammies, glutes, and spinal erectors especially hard yet your lifts for those areas are by far the weakest.

You have a decent bench and curl, but you seem to be neglecting your deadlifts, squats and power cleans (arguably the most important lifts for your sport!). The question you need to ask yourself is, do you want to be great at either wrestling or bodybuilding or mediocre at both?[/quote]

I don’t want to come across as an asshole, but the chance of him becoming “great” at either sport is pretty damn close to zero.

Neither the mindset nor the genetics are there.

20

Well you definitely have alot of negativity to motivate you.