Maximum Muscular Bodyweight

[quote]Magarhe wrote:

  • I would like to see these stats for powerlifters / olympic weightlifters. I want to know the lean mass of drug free strength athletes who have muscle development that is less … sarcoplasmic.
    [/quote]

I was powerlifting (or, more accurately, training like a powerlifter, not competing) when the first picture was taken. Four days per week, Westside style. I was routinely “guessed” as weighing anywhere from 210-230 even though I weighed 260 and actually was a somewhat less lean 271 at my heaviest.

I think the only thing extreme about Prof X and perhaps myself and many others is that we train smart, we train hard and we’ve done what it takes to surpass the stats in that study. I don’t think you’ll run into many extremely genetically gifted people by the very definition of the word, it’s not likely.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
IronWarrior24 wrote:
I say fuck what this statistical analysis says. Don’t let this shit crush your hopes or dreams. Use this as fuel for the fire. Go lift. Get bigger than anyone thinks you can. Prove the people who doubt you wrong. After all, your only limits are self-imposed.

You wish. I issue a challenge to all those who say this analysis is BS. Prove it. Get yourself into bodybuilding contest shape, take the pics to prove it, take a pic of yourself on the scales weighing more than this formula predicts.

I predict there will be exactly zero people who succeed. What is more, I doubt if there are any of you out there who have the guts to take up the challenge. After all, you might be proved wrong.

I don’t currently compete and I won’t be dieting down over the next few months just to prove something to some guy over the internet who has never even shown pictures of what he himself looks like at all.

That link I posted is to an episode of American Muscle about Delino Dixon who competed naturally at over 220lbs in contest shape at 5’11" (getting to 230lbs at his last contest that I remember him competing in years back).

Not one of the guys measured in that “study” were holding those types of measurements. Usually, any time a bodybuilder gets to a level that most can’t reach, they start questioning whether he is natural which means no one could ever “prove” this to you. You could simply claim they aren’t any time someone exceeds the measurements of that chart.

I do have to ask why someone would defend the idea that no one could pass that mark. Would I be right in assuming that you are nowhere near a size that would impress too many people? Could that be the reason?[/quote]

I don’t defend the idea that noone could pass that mark. I would be delighted if someone took up my challenge and succeeded.

My size is irrelevant to the issue. For the record, I am 5’10" and weigh around 240 (obviously I am NOT in bodybuilding contest shape).

BTW, WRT Deline Dixon, I found this quote
“Not to Bash but I know Muscle Mania is not a all natural show, they only tested 4 guys out of 200 with a urine test.The guys they tested were all novices, lol they didnt test any open or pro athletes, lol.Plus the guy who won the overall pro division Delino Dixon who lives in the same town as me, failed his pre emplyment drug test a week after he won the MuscleMania Pro.If you know about casinos, they test for steroids and recrational drugs.I have known Delino Dixon 15 years, and he was 200 lbs, then 2 years later he was 235 lbs on stage at Musclemania Pro.”
here

Not that I am saying he is not natural (that poster may have had an axe to grind) but it seems there is some evidence that he might not be.

Regarding your not dieting down to contest shape, that is fine. But until you do I feel free to doubt that you would exceed the formula results if you did.

[quote]IronWarrior24 wrote:
derek wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
You wouldn’t want to see them. I am 54 going on 55 and didn’t start lifting until I was 50. I am doing OK (deadlifted 400 recently) but I am carrying a fair bit of bf as you might expect at my age. I’m not setting myself up as an example.

OK, NOW I understand where all this is coming from. You just sit back and criticize while the rest of us cruise past limits your kind likes to lament about.

That’s exactly why he defends it. So he can try to convince himself that he has a reason for being so out of shape. It’s an excuse for him to not put forth any effort to make himself better. He tells himself, “It’s not my fault I can’t get any stronger. It’s because of my genetic limitations. Oh well, I guess that gets me out of pushing myself to reach any kind of goal in life.” People like that make me sick.

[/quote]

Right! And now he comes out with “Oh, don’t look at me, I’m too old to fall under any kind of scrutiny. I’ll just dis you guys and hide behind my own self-imposed limitations”.

This shit makes me sick as well. I think I’ll lump him in with the subjects discussed in the “Kid’s These Days” thread! A 54 year old kid.

[quote]sharetrader wrote:

Not that I am saying he is not natural (that poster may have had an axe to grind) but it seems there is some evidence that he might not be.

Regarding your not dieting down to contest shape, that is fine. But until you do I feel free to doubt that you would exceed the formula results if you did.[/quote]

LOL. What would be the point if you even question guys who claim to be natural when they diet down? If you question Dixon, you would question me and anyone else as well the moment they look developed enough to bring those numbers into question.

[quote]IronWarrior24 wrote:
derek wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
You wouldn’t want to see them. I am 54 going on 55 and didn’t start lifting until I was 50. I am doing OK (deadlifted 400 recently) but I am carrying a fair bit of bf as you might expect at my age. I’m not setting myself up as an example.

OK, NOW I understand where all this is coming from. You just sit back and criticize while the rest of us cruise past limits your kind likes to lament about.

That’s exactly why he defends it. So he can try to convince himself that he has a reason for being so out of shape. It’s an excuse for him to not put forth any effort to make himself better. He tells himself, “It’s not my fault I can’t get any stronger. It’s because of my genetic limitations. Oh well, I guess that gets me out of pushing myself to reach any kind of goal in life.” People like that make me sick.

[/quote]

Haha! You guys are hilarious. I AM getting stronger. I hope you are too :wink: I am not trying to convince myself of anything. YOU and your buddies are the ones trying to convince yourselves that you would be better than the champions if you just dieted down a bit (but you never do diet down, funnily enough).

Enjoy your delusions.

[quote]sharetrader wrote:
Professor X wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
IronWarrior24 wrote:
I say fuck what this statistical analysis says. Don’t let this shit crush your hopes or dreams. Use this as fuel for the fire. Go lift. Get bigger than anyone thinks you can. Prove the people who doubt you wrong. After all, your only limits are self-imposed.

You wish. I issue a challenge to all those who say this analysis is BS. Prove it. Get yourself into bodybuilding contest shape, take the pics to prove it, take a pic of yourself on the scales weighing more than this formula predicts.

I predict there will be exactly zero people who succeed. What is more, I doubt if there are any of you out there who have the guts to take up the challenge. After all, you might be proved wrong.

I don’t currently compete and I won’t be dieting down over the next few months just to prove something to some guy over the internet who has never even shown pictures of what he himself looks like at all.

That link I posted is to an episode of American Muscle about Delino Dixon who competed naturally at over 220lbs in contest shape at 5’11" (getting to 230lbs at his last contest that I remember him competing in years back).

Not one of the guys measured in that “study” were holding those types of measurements. Usually, any time a bodybuilder gets to a level that most can’t reach, they start questioning whether he is natural which means no one could ever “prove” this to you. You could simply claim they aren’t any time someone exceeds the measurements of that chart.

I do have to ask why someone would defend the idea that no one could pass that mark. Would I be right in assuming that you are nowhere near a size that would impress too many people? Could that be the reason?

I don’t defend the idea that noone could pass that mark. I would be delighted if someone took up my challenge and succeeded.

My size is irrelevant to the issue. For the record, I am 5’10" and weigh around 240 (obviously I am NOT in bodybuilding contest shape).

BTW, WRT Deline Dixon, I found this quote
“Not to Bash but I know Muscle Mania is not a all natural show, they only tested 4 guys out of 200 with a urine test.The guys they tested were all novices, lol they didnt test any open or pro athletes, lol.Plus the guy who won the overall pro division Delino Dixon who lives in the same town as me, failed his pre emplyment drug test a week after he won the MuscleMania Pro.If you know about casinos, they test for steroids and recrational drugs.I have known Delino Dixon 15 years, and he was 200 lbs, then 2 years later he was 235 lbs on stage at Musclemania Pro.”
here

Not that I am saying he is not natural (that poster may have had an axe to grind) but it seems there is some evidence that he might not be.

Regarding your not dieting down to contest shape, that is fine. But until you do I feel free to doubt that you would exceed the formula results if you did.[/quote]

Well Professor X, you sure called this one. You said that somebody would always claim that someone wasn’t natural when they reached a certain level, and here you go. People always have to find an excuse for why someone is better off than they are. But, notice it’s never the person’s own fault.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
sharetrader wrote:

Not that I am saying he is not natural (that poster may have had an axe to grind) but it seems there is some evidence that he might not be.

Regarding your not dieting down to contest shape, that is fine. But until you do I feel free to doubt that you would exceed the formula results if you did.

LOL. What would be the point if you even question guys who claim to be natural when they diet down? If you question Dixon, you would question me and anyone else as well the moment they look developed enough to bring those numbers into question. [/quote]

Ok, I promise not to question your natural status if you take up my challenge. I would like to see what you can achieve. If you can get anywhere near Dixon’s physique that will be extremely impressive.

[quote]sharetrader wrote:
Haha! You guys are hilarious. I AM getting stronger. I hope you are too :wink: I am not trying to convince myself of anything. YOU and your buddies are the ones trying to convince yourselves that you would be better than the champions if you just dieted down a bit (but you never do diet down, funnily enough).

Enjoy your delusions.[/quote]

What I find hilarious is you who question me (and Professor X, who has built a bigger physique than I have) when I told you I gained up to 75 lbs yet remained at or lowered my bodyfat to the point I could see the 8, not the 6-pack.

So being conservative, if I dieted down to 245 putting me at, say 8% bodyfat, that still has me gaining 60 lbs of lean mass. Not to mention I had my appendix rupture and was rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery with that and accute peritonitis, was layed up in the hospital for three weeks, lost 30 lbs and gained it back plus more. Oh, I also broke my right arm playing hockey.

So, two somewhat major setbacks and I still gained 70-75 lbs overall. Hmmmm, you may just be aiming too low there Sharetrader. Just don’t do it for the rest of us, ok?

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

I have carefully considered the intellectual arguments you have herewith posited and have come to the unfortunate conclusion that I haven’t the slightest earthly idea what the hell you are trying to say. I only hope you will find it in yourself to forgive my inferior powers of reason and continue blessing the world with your profundities. [/quote]

wtf is there to understand? I’m not making arguments I am spelling it out point by point.

Not having a go at you but it seems to be plainly put, to me

derek, I also get the impression that some people have much denser muscles than others, even with less size, and that this alone can throw these predictions into chaos. Which is why I’d like to see the stats on olympic lifters.

actually i don’t want to see the stats coz i could not give a rats ass

[quote]derek wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
Haha! You guys are hilarious. I AM getting stronger. I hope you are too :wink: I am not trying to convince myself of anything. YOU and your buddies are the ones trying to convince yourselves that you would be better than the champions if you just dieted down a bit (but you never do diet down, funnily enough).

Enjoy your delusions.

What I find hilarious is you who question me (and Professor X, who has built a bigger physique than I have) when I told you I gained up to 75 lbs yet remained at or lowered my bodyfat to the point I could see the 8, not the 6-pack.

So being conservative, if I dieted down to 245 putting me at, say 8% bodyfat, that still has me gaining 60 lbs of lean mass. Not to mention I had my appendix rupture and was rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery with that and accute peritonitis, was layed up in the hospital for three weeks, lost 30 lbs and gained it back plus more. Oh, I also broke my right arm playing hockey.

So, two somewhat major setbacks and I still gained 70-75 lbs overall. Hmmmm, you may just be aiming too low there Sharetrader. Just don’t do it for the rest of us, ok?
[/quote]

That is IF you could diet down to 245 and be 8% bf. I don’t see it myself. Looking at the pic you posted, I reckon that 10-12% caliper measurement was pretty generous. You look to be carrying a bit of visceral fat that would throw out the caliper assessment. What’s your waist measurement?

So, is Derek seriously saying he has better genetic potential than every natural bodybuilder in the last 50 years?

[quote]Sliver wrote:
So, is Derek seriously saying he has better genetic potential than every natural bodybuilder in the last 50 years?[/quote]

I got the impression that not only was he saying he had better potential, but that he had realized that potential and was actually MORE muscular than the best natural bodybuilders in the last 50 years. We mere mortals who might aspire to achieving something approaching their builds are selling ourselves short.

I hope Casey doesn’t have any studies on where a natural power lifter’s strength tops out.

From what I have gathered the article’s statistical analysis fit the individuals whom it studied. That much is hard to argue with.

However, the problem is that the author is making the mistake of both
A) attempting to tell the reader what the “ideal” body builder aesthetic should be (I personally think that a lot of the “Golden Era” pros had disproportionately small lower bodies" when compared to many athletes today)

B) making the assumption that the Natural bodybuilding champions of past and present are the genetic elite.

I made the first comment because every time someone seems to come up with an exception to the “genetic potential” calculations someone will make the argument that these only apply to bodybuilding standards, or as Mr Butt himself stated “at least in an otherwise balanced physique”.

What the heck does that mean anyway? So, you’re saying that if someone had phenomenal genetic potential for building their quads and developed them to their potential (thus making the quads their standout body part) that this would in some way disqualify them from being used as an exception to the stats in this study, or even taken into consideration?

My other point is probably the more important one however. Mr. Butt, what makes you think that the past or present Natural bodybuilders are the genetic elite as far as their ability to build muscle mass? Really, there is no evidence that points to this being the case, especially now adays.

Think about it, there really isn’t much money in bodybuilding, and even less in natural shows. So, if someone truly had phenomenal athletic potential (and the ability to build a huge, powerful, muscular, athletic body) do you really think that they would choose to go into natural bodybuilding?

No, most likely they’d go into football, as there is a crap load more money in that sport. Not to mention that especially gifted athletes sign multimillion dollar contracts that ensure that they will get paid lots of money for several years. This is in stark contrast to bodybuilding, in which case they may or may not win a contest solely based on a judges like or dislike of their physique.

Honestly, if you were the above person, which route would you go? I know personally that I’d have to choose the football option. I wouldn’t consider myself to be a greedy person, but I’m also not stupid. You could always maintain an incredible physique and still get paid the big bucks to play football. The other way around would be a little harder.

Suggesting that this study only applies to bodybuilders and not to athletes who play other sports is a load of BS. It’s really not much of a reflection on the population as a whole if that is true, and therefore can’t be used as a method of determining “maximal muscular potential”. All it does is show that several past natural bodybuilding champions fit into the equation, that is all.

I guess it’s interesting from a purely intellectual standpoint, but I personally don’t put much stock into statistical analysis.

After all according to statistics I’m most likely to have 2 and a half children! How the heck do you have half a child? LOL.

Good training,

Sentoguy

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
From start to finish, everything I was trying to get across.[/quote]

Good post.

I knew some pure genetic freaks who played ball in college. They would never cross a bodybuilding stage. That means people like that are completely excluded from this “study”…which to most people should make the study questionable, especially considering the outstanding development of many football players today.

OK. Let me get this straight. According to your great and powerful calculator, my maximum potential at 20% BF is 269. I reached this potential after exactly 6 months of working out.

I was at 20 percent bodyfat and weighed 264. I separated my shoulder at that point and had to back off a lot and let that heal. But after 6 months I had reached my maximum potential within 5 pounds of muscle?

I know the answer to this question. Wait, I really do.

This “predictor” is pure and simple horseshit.

I would like to see some of T-Nations authors opinion on this article.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
From start to finish, everything I was trying to get across.

Good post.

I knew some pure genetic freaks who played ball in college. They would never cross a bodybuilding stage. That means people like that are completely excluded from this “study”…which to most people should make the study questionable, especially considering the outstanding development of many football players today.[/quote]

And what about those of us who don’t grow just by looking at a pair of dumbbells?

EDIT: And why the hell would the builds basketball and football players be statistically relevant in a study on natural bodybuilding?

[quote]Sliver wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
From start to finish, everything I was trying to get across.

Good post.

I knew some pure genetic freaks who played ball in college. They would never cross a bodybuilding stage. That means people like that are completely excluded from this “study”…which to most people should make the study questionable, especially considering the outstanding development of many football players today.

And what about those of us who don’t grow just by looking at a pair of dumbbells?[/quote]

Are you asking why every human isn’t exactly the same or why you specifically aren’t the floating froth at the top of the gene pool when it comes to muscular development?

[quote]Sliver wrote:

And what about those of us who don’t grow just by looking at a pair of dumbbells?[/quote]

We’ll have to train harder and eat better, and it is even more important to put these numbers out of your head.

I refuse to believe that I have to become fat or inbalanced in order to weigh more than 180lbs, I don’t care what my wrist measurements are. If I hit this limit, it was because of my training, not because of some formula.