Maximum Muscular Bodyweight

[quote]Professor X wrote:

“Hello, class, I am your substitute teacher for this afternoon as your regular teacher was shot in a drive-by on the way to work. I am here to let you know that STATISTICALLY, 90% of you will either end up in jail, on drugs or dead by the age of 18…so you might want to drop out of school right now. I hear there’s a really cool gang initiation going on on Martin Luther King Blvd at 4pm so if you all hurry, you can get front seats.”

“But…but I want to go to college!”

“Damn it, STATISTICS you little fucker, STAT-TIST-TICS.”[/quote]

Hilarious.

Prof X, you hinted at this, but no one really took the bait:

judging from the “author’s” pics, i think its safe to say he found some study that allows him to be comfortable with his level of development.

i feel saddened that he honestly feels that he is very near his developmental potential.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

“But…but I want to go to college!”

“Damn it, STATISTICS you little fucker, STAT-TIST-TICS.”

[/quote]

Excellent!

“Professor X”, I am surprised that someone who has achieved a Ph.D. (if that is, in fact, true) fails to understand the implications of that article and/or the material presented in it.

The statistical analysis was performed on champion bodybuilders, therefore, it is aspiring bodybuilders to whom it is most applicable – not football players, sumo wrestlers or any other group carrying high levels of lean body mass. That is not a revelation or admission of error on my part. It is quite apparent from the article itself.

I came here to address questions about the validity of the article, not to see who the alpha male is on this discussion board or win an ego battle with you. (Why else would you “flash” your “credentials”? …and by the way, I also have a Ph.D.). I haven’t said anything to provoke you, I’ve merely defended my article and the premise upon which it was based.

The material presented in the article stands. It is accurate for the data analyzed and the people for which it is intended. My personal “comfort level” with it is irrelevant. People will likewise have to interpret the implications in the proper manner.

I have no interest in arguing with you or anyone else on this discussion board, so I’ll bow out of this now.

[quote]Casey Butt wrote:
“Professor X”, I am surprised that someone who has achieved a Ph.D. (if that is, in fact, true) fails to understand the implications of that article and/or the material presented in it.[/quote]

I could say that this is one more reason why you should not limit your thinking. You can make huge assumptions when you do. I am a DMD, the type who uses a scalpel and sutures on an almost daily basis.

[quote]
The statistical analysis was performed on champion bodybuilders, therefore, it is aspiring bodybuilders to whom it is most applicable – not football players, sumo wrestlers or any other group carrying high levels of lean body mass. That is not a revelation or admission of error on my part. It is quite apparent from the article itself.[/quote]

Many elite bodybuilders were once football players, basketball players and powerlifters. Phil Heath played college basketball, didn’t he? The “error” is in ignoring that no one knows they will be good at bodybuilding…until they have actually built a body to some degree. That means it can openly apply to anyone reading it who “BODYBUILDS”.

[quote]
I came here to address questions about the validity of the article, not to see who the Alpha Male is on this discussion board or win an ego battle with you. (Why else would you “flash” your “credentials”? …and by the way, I also have a Ph.D.). I haven’t said anything to provoke you, I’ve merely defended my article and the premise upon which it was based.[/quote]

This was a discussion about the article that quickly began discussing the limitations this can place on the thinking of those who lift weights. I doubt anyone is questioning whether a “study” was performed or whether you looked at individuals.

What is being questioned is why those individuals studied would stand to represent all individuals when the truth is, you can’t predict potential that specifically. This may give us some ability to look at who may be “most likely” to see the most progress, but any attempt to weed out individuals or make them feel like they can only achieve much less should be avoided.

Do you see my point?

[quote]Casey Butt wrote:
I came here to address questions about the validity of the article, not to see who the alpha male is on this discussion board or win an ego battle with you.
[/quote]

But, we ARE addressing the validity of this article.

So, what happens when someone proves these formulas wrong with their stats? Do you accuse them of using AAS, or shrugging them off as gifted and it doesn’t apply to them?

I would like to propose that the possibility is that the group of individuals on whom this data was collected are not necessarily the most gifted genetically. Being a world champion natural bodybuilder only suggests that you are:

  1. The most gifted of a select and very small group of the population.
  2. That you have more desire to be a champion natural bodybuilder than the rest of the population.

Applying statistics garnered from a minuscule sample of the population and applying them to all people seems ludicrous at best.

Thanks for keeping this civil. :wink:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Do you see my point?
[/quote]
Yes, actually, I do. And in that perspective I agree with you. But it wasn’t really my intention to set limitations upon everybody. People with certain structures will exceed the predictions because the predictions are based on the structure and aesthetics of bodybuilding champions.

Really, what the equations are doing are giving a set of measurements and bodyweight that would reflect a “bodybuilding champion” with certain joint sizes. Very few people fit neatly into that category. However, it is what most bodybuilders aim for and that’s really where it’s value lies.

People with huge barrel chests, for example, may exceed the chest measurement prediction. People with phenomenal forearms may exceed the forearm prediction. However, in most cases, it will take drug-free people years to achieve most of the measurements that the predictions give (in lean shape of course) …and most never will (through largely lack of dedication and persistence), but they won’t know until they try and if they surpass it then I’ll include them in the new equations. :wink:

So the predictions tell you what you’d measure if you had the measurements of a drug-free bodybuilding champion based on the available statistics. It’s meant to serve more as an ideal upon which to compare yourself than as a limitation. But on the other hand, it if were easy to exceed those measurements - across the board - then the champs would have done it.

I really don’t think we disagree as much as are looking at this from different angles.

I don’t know folks. It didn’t take me long to figure out, as I flipped through the mags and watched American Muscle on cable years ago, that I most likely wasn’t going to ever be that big. At least without drugs.

I also figured out that working hard was getting me much more results than I ever thought possible.

Bottom line?

I don’t know how big I can get or what precise measurements I’ll end up with one day. I do know today is not that day. I also know that the only way to really find out is to keep doing what I’m doing.

Despite this guys unusually levelheaded approach I’m at a loss regarding why I would waste time tying to figure stuff like this out.

How big can I get? A little bigger.

[quote]BigHog wrote:
How come if this is so accurate… I put in my height 78 inches, wrist size 7.5 inches, ankle 9 inches and my current body far level… approx 10%. my results was with those stats I’d top out at 205 pounds.

Unless I did it wrong I must be a genetic mutant because I already way 255 and my bodyfat at the highest has been tested at 12 and the lowest at 9… I’m definetly not a fat guy.[/quote]

You did it wrong.

Sir, I respect your achievements and I understand your point. But your report will IMO not achieve what you intended.

IIUC, it is intended for a group of people who are working hard, are close to their limits but have unreal expectations and are letting their obsession wreck every other aspect of their lives.

But it will really reach only those who are nowhere near their limits and need to fantasize about an “unreal” expectation in order to reach their real limits and be used as an excuse by such people to justify a lack of progress.

I remember how there was an article that looked at most of Bruce Lee’s so-called stunts that his followers and fans had cooked up over the years (and that had snowballed to crazy proportions), and the paper then concluded that the legend of bruce lee was still considered a necessity to inspire people to work harder and so it was not a good idea to publicly debunk the urban legends about the man.

EDIT: I see you addressed these points earlier with “That was not the intended idea and I don;t care if thats how people view this article”. That makes it different. Good day to you.

[quote]Casey Butt wrote:
I did not say anything even implying that it is not possible for anyone to drastically change their lean body mass or body composition. I myself was once 55% bodyfat at over 320 pounds. I then went down to 160 pounds at 15% bodyfat, then back up to 175 at 9% body fat. That was a gain of 23 pounds of lean body mass or a 17% increase. The changes in my appearance were quite noticeable.

If you really do carry 50 pounds more lean body mass than an average person of your height and bone structure then you have almost doubled the accomplishments of the greatest drug-free bodybuilders of all time.

Many people who believe that are comparing themselves to when they were teenagers and just began training. That is not accurate because most people are naturally heavier in their twenties than they were at age 16 or 17 …regardless of weight training.

Realism has nothing to do with defeatism. How people choose to interpret reality is completely up to themselves. Of course, accepting “limitations” requires some maturity that most young bodybuilders don’t have, but that is itself influenced by people’s skewed perceptions.

I agree that people should not mentally defeat themselves because of some information that they interpret in a negative fashion. But I really don’t see how that article is negative in any way. The only way it is negative is if people have unrealistic expectations in the first place.

I think after 10 years of hard, drug-free training and plateauing around where the equations predict, most people will come to “accept” that article much quicker than the younger crowd.

The statistics are accurate, the analysis was accurate. There’s really nothing else to it than that. I did nothing other than analyze and formulate the existing data. Kouri E.M., Pope H.G. Jr., Katz D.L. and Oliva P. independently came to the same conclusions as myself.

Of course people have choices of how they deal with the information. If they’re concerned about it planting self-defeatist attitudes in their heads they can: 1) Simply not read the article. 2) Just ignore it. 3) Adjust their unrealistic expectations. 4) Get mad at the drug-free champions for not setting a more positive example by being bigger. 5) Get mad at drug-users for raising the bar to a level which is unattainable without drugs.[/quote]

[quote]Sliver wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
Sliver wrote:
Casey Butt wrote:
Sliver wrote:
According to this guys equation at 5’11 10% bodyfat I’m going to top out at a “monstrous” 170 pounds.

I hope to christ this guy’s a quack.

In order for you to top out at 170 lbs at 5’10" you must have an extremely thin bone structure.

Ankle= 8.5 inches

wrist= 6.25

Check your calculation. With your height, ankle and wrist measurements at 10%bf I got a result of 189.7lbs.

crap. I must have screwed up the math somewhere. [/quote]

Sliver,

You calculated lean body mass potential, not total bodyweight which as sharetrader pointed out would be 189.71 pounds (I get 189.66 using an Excel formula). There is an additional conversion formula directly below the main equation.

gdm

[quote]Heliotrope wrote:
BigHog wrote:
How come if this is so accurate… I put in my height 78 inches, wrist size 7.5 inches, ankle 9 inches and my current body far level… approx 10%. my results was with those stats I’d top out at 205 pounds.

Unless I did it wrong I must be a genetic mutant because I already way 255 and my bodyfat at the highest has been tested at 12 and the lowest at 9… I’m definetly not a fat guy.

You did it wrong.

[/quote]

I get 230.28 pounds of total bodyweight and 207.25 pounds of maximum lean mass for you big guy (at the desired 10%).

Kudos, Chris, for attempting to maintain an intelligent discussion. Youve noticed that when some cant hold up their end (always sooner than later) they resort to what they consider “wit”, of the common adolescent, locker-room variety.

Its funny how there are some who mock the muscle rags for portraying a false reality yet also wish the world to think that potential is limitless.

Statistical analysis can be scewed. However, at the other end, stat analysis is not useless because it doesnt perfectly mirror reality. The theory that this emperical research might support is that humans have limited ability for muscle size development. In statisitical analysis correlative relations are significant, such as presented in this study. Do they mirror reality? Of course not! But they dont have to to be relevant. At least debate the merits of the study’s design, process etc.

And why should an ego or spirit be crushed by this research??? There are always those outside the curve. Besides, its been my experience that those who love (particularly, unrealistic) ends rather than the process are the ones that will fade. If you love working out then you wont be too shaken by this study.

[quote]Scotacus wrote:

Its funny how there are some who mock the muscle rags for portraying a false reality yet also wish the world to think that potential is limitless.
[/quote]

The day we start plotting out someone’s exact “realistic” potential would be about the time that reality begins to mirror the plot in GATTACA. I don’t know about you, but I would hope we avoid ever becoming that way.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Scotacus wrote:

Its funny how there are some who mock the muscle rags for portraying a false reality yet also wish the world to think that potential is limitless.

The day we start plotting out someone’s exact “realistic” potential would be about the time that reality begins to mirror the plot in GATTACA. I don’t know about you, but I would hope we avoid ever becoming that way.[/quote]

Well, if that is used for political purposes (who gets what) then I suppose so. I dont think this study is worthy that level of hysteria though. He seems to be simply drawing attention to a correlation found between certain measurements and muscle size development. Dispute him at least on his terms (ie the study, methodology).

Ha ha… According to this I will be topping out at around 178lbs. Too bad I plan on lifting in the 198lb weight class…

I don’t even know why this is generating so much debate. Worry about your genetic potential when you hit it. For most of us, that will be never.

[quote]Casey Butt wrote:

It is ridiculous for adult drug-free bodybuilders to think they will add 50 pounds of lean body mass and look like an IFBB pro without massive, regular doses of anabolic drugs. [/quote]

Really? I started training weighing 180-185lbs with visable abs.

I this picture, I weighed just over 260 with the very same visable abs.

I know I don’t look massive but… isn’t that like 75 lbs I gained?

Do the math.

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I don’t even know why this is generating so much debate. Worry about your genetic potential when you hit it. For most of us, that will be never.[/quote]

That is exactly why it has generated so much debate. This “calculator” tells people their supposed genetic potential, which for some is not all that heavy and sometimes very close.

I am 5’11" and it puts my max at 178. That’s only 10lbs away for me, but for someone that is 5’11" tall, 178 is far to light to have the right leverages for powerlifting.

I also can’t bear to think how many people will take this for fact and immediately resolve that they are “genetically predisposed” to be small and weak.