I think this is an interesting study, but for some reason people are very emotional about it. I think some (definitely not all) are severely underestimating what someone that is 6 ft tall and 215 at 8% bf would look like.
Exactly. The truth goes through 3 processes - first it is ridiculed, then it is violently opposed, then it is accepted as fact.
For most genetically average people - this is an attainable but VERY challenging goal.
Most people are freaking out because they think oh shit, only 215 @ 8%, that’s too small and I wanna be big. But unless you’re on steroids, that is big.
Many people don’t even get their fat % professionally measured, so unless you do there is no way to guess your BF. Just because you have abs doesn’t mean you’re <10%, due to genetic regional differences (i.e. you could have more fat on your ass or back etc).
[quote]evo2008 wrote:
Exactly. The truth goes through 3 processes - first it is ridiculed, then it is violently opposed, then it is accepted as fact.
For most genetically average people - this is an attainable but VERY challenging goal.[/quote]
This article does not claim to be about “most genetically average people” but instead about the maximum potential of the genetic elite. Did you not notice that?
Some of us disagree with the author’s belief that his sample:
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indeed represents the cream of the world’s greatest genetic elite
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does not include anyone who could possibly have been bigger if they wanted to
[quote]Professor X wrote:
elliot007 wrote:
I dont even think mad titan beats these numbers and if he does, it is close and he looks fucking phenomenal
everyone else that is saying they beat these numbers has a high bf% and is hypothesizing
so, we have is a bunch of guys saying they are EASILY better than mad titan, reg park and steve reeves
I find that much harder to believe than this guys analysis
Mad Titan only weighs about 175lbs. He has great genetics for proportion, but he isn’t exactly carrying that much lean body mass. I doubt even he would claim he has trained for size as his primary goal since he hasn’t gained much size over the past few years.
I would rather he spoke on that himself, but from actually speaking with him, overall size is not his primary concern.
Also, unless you think a higher body fat percentage somehow erases the level of lean body mass someone is carrying…or that they somehow lose all of their lean body mass when dieting down, what is your point?
It is RARE for there to be bodybuilders who even have arms over 18"…but they are out there. Just because the majority will be less likely to be able to achieve an extreme level of muscle mass, it does not mean that we start capping off what can be reached and tout that as the LIMIT that can be achieved.
All of us are not “average”.[/quote]
How the hell can a guy Mad Titans size only weight 175? Is he only 4 feet tall?
i hate this thread
What would have been more insightful, is the measurements of the BBers when they were smaller, not when they were at their peak. or was that done?
[quote]Sliver wrote:
How the hell can a guy Mad Titans size only weight 175? Is he only 4 feet tall?[/quote]
Mad Titan stated that he is 5’9 in his Countdown thread.
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1609763&pageNo=0
Would one of you advanced members please post up pics/stats and disprove this article already…
Many people just do not understand how fat they really are. if you told them 5’9 175 5%bf with no pics, they would tell you to eat and that you are a skinny fag.
[quote]elliot007 wrote:
Many people just do not understand how fat they really are. if you told them 5’9 175 5%bf with no pics, they would tell you to eat and that you are a skinny fag. [/quote]
EXACTLY. I think that causes a lot of people to “mis-interpret” that article
[quote]greekdawg wrote:
It’s highly unlikely that the drug-free bodybuilding champions of the past had accurate methods to calculate their bodyfat percentages. I doubt they used calipers back then, or had access to more modern, more accurate technologies like DEXA scans underwater weighing, etc. so how do we/you actually know the exact body fat percentages of bb champions from 30-40- 50 years ago? Where are you getting your stats from? And how would know they are accurate?
Wouldn’t that kind of throw off your formula?[/quote]
Yes. I adjusted the anthropometrics-based body fat estimation methods from the DoD and other sources (like I mentioned above) by comparing those equations to known data from modern bodybuilders. There were 10 in all. Then I visually compared the results to modern bodybuilders of known body fat levels. The old-timers tended to come in at around 8%-10% body, though there were a few leaner guys (but still above 7%). Incidently, they tended to stay that way all year.
In the booklet, I listed the old-timers estimated body fats as well but didn’t do that on the website just to keep things simple.
All practical body fat estimation methods are subject to error. So, yeah it did introduce some error, but over the course of a large number of “subjects” I don’t think it had much of an overall effect.
Sorry, I don’t have time to add anything else …I’m going to be VERY busy over the next few weeks/months.
Mad Titan looks phenomenal. According to the equation he has 4-8 pounds left to go (I’m guessing his wrist at about 6.75"-7.0" and puting his body fat pretty low at 6%).
P.S. Sometime in the next few days I’ll add the regression coefficients for the groups used to the website article. They varied from 0.73 (from thigh to height) to 0.94 (for biceps to wrist). I’m also adding a form of “maximum deviation” (my personal version of a standard deviation 
) to the equations in the booklet.
[quote]98V wrote:
Sliver wrote:
How the hell can a guy Mad Titans size only weight 175? Is he only 4 feet tall?
Mad Titan stated that he is 5’9 in his Countdown thread.
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1609763&pageNo=0
Would one of you advanced members please post up pics/stats and disprove this article already…
[/quote]
What purpose would this serve? Anyone bigger than his “psychic” stats is simply labeled as invalid, including Michael Lockett. THAT is the issue.
Mad Titan only has 4-8lbs to go? And you DON’T see what we are arguing about? If this were only a presentation of data, no one would have an issue with it. But that is NOT what he is presenting. He is presenting this as a way to PREDICT how big someone can get. That isn’t science. Science doesn’t even attempt to PREDICT how tall someone is going to be with that much specificity until they have reached closer to their full height and a mature age…yet this “study” can predict within 4lbs how much muscle you can carry based on wrists and ankles from beginner status?
Are you really understanding this?
Again, when did we prove that wrist circumference NEVER changes regardless of how much muscle you gain?
Hey Mr. Butt,
What do you do if your wrist size increases, would you adjust your max LBM accordingly?
WHat about pro-football players? lots of them are humongous, they dont even train for size(some do) and lots of them are, by my estimation, near the limits. (i am not talking about the tackle that is 6’8" and 350+ lbs)
[quote]Sliver wrote:
How the hell can a guy Mad Titans size only weight 175? Is he only 4 feet tall?[/quote]
Mad Titan is close to (if not already at) a level of body fat in those pictures that many guys compete at. He is also not exactly walking around with 18" arms. He looks great, but for 5’9", 175lbs in damn near contest condition is pretty significant…although not “huge”.
I understand that many beginners or even intermediates have a hard time understanding body weight vs development. However, 200lbs walking around everyday with a more average body fat percentage is a HUGE difference from 200lbs in contest shape. One is “average”. The other is MASSIVE.
Calculator said 198.1 for me, at 10% bodyfat. Right now I’m sitting at 196 pounds with 13.9% BUT, it says that my max chest will be 42.4ish and I’m almost at 44… not sure it’s gonna go down 2 inches with only a 4% BF flush (AND 2 pounds of additionnal mass). Same for biceps, it says 15.8 max and I’m already just past 17.
You can’t calculate something as complex as the bodybuilding process, it’s just as ridiculous as saying guys with small feet have a small wang.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Sliver wrote:
How the hell can a guy Mad Titans size only weight 175? Is he only 4 feet tall?
Mad Titan is close to (if not already at) a level of body fat in those pictures that many guys compete at. He is also not exactly walking around with 18" arms. He looks great, but for 5’9", 175lbs in damn near contest condition is pretty significant…although not “huge”.
I understand that many beginners or even intermediates have a hard time understanding body weight vs development. However, 200lbs walking around everyday with a more average body fat percentage is a HUGE difference from 200lbs in contest shape. One is “average”. The other is MASSIVE.[/quote]
Good post. I think itt goes both ways though. People underestimate just how good a “lighter” bodyweight looks when it is very lean or in near-contest condition.
At the same time, people also overestimate the importance of just gaining a ton of weight for the sake of gaining weight.
Sorry but I have to disagree with this article, lets take my example:
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been training “pretty” seriously for about 2.5 years
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about 26-28% Bodyfat (pretty fat)
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6’3 305lbs
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wrist 7.5, ankle 10, arms cold and flex: 18,8, upper tigh 32
Now i did you calculation with 25% bodyfat and it gave my this:
Your estimated maximum muscular bodyweight at ~25% bodyfat is: 295.3 lbs
Your estimated maximum muscular measurements (@ ~8%-10% bodyfat) are:
Chest: 51.2 in Biceps: 18.3 in
Forearms: 14.6 in Neck: 17.8 in
Thighs: 27.4 in Calves: 18.4 in
I can easly surpass those “LIMITS” in about 2 years…
will i do it naturaly? why waist time when my goal is 270-280lbs under 15%
PS: I post alot in the steroid forum but have never used (not yet)
An other thing you have to take into consideration is that 90% (my statistics) of serious bodybuilders with good genetic ,when it comes to putting on size, don’t stay natural because they understand very fast how big the can be if they took the GOODS
I’m within 10-15 pounds within my “limits” after a year of training. To say that its impossible for me to break them without chemical assistance is the stupidest thing i’ve ever heard.
[quote]Defekt wrote:
I’m within 10-15 pounds within my “limits” after a year of training. To say that its impossible for me to break them without chemical assistance is the stupidest thing i’ve ever heard. [/quote]
that is really really doubtful, you are probably just way fatter than you want to admit
[quote]elliot007 wrote:
Defekt wrote:
I’m within 10-15 pounds within my “limits” after a year of training. To say that its impossible for me to break them without chemical assistance is the stupidest thing i’ve ever heard.
that is really really doubtful, you are probably just way fatter than you want to admit
[/quote]
LOL
[quote]elliot007 wrote:
Defekt wrote:
I’m within 10-15 pounds within my “limits” after a year of training. To say that its impossible for me to break them without chemical assistance is the stupidest thing i’ve ever heard.
that is really really doubtful, you are probably just way fatter than you want to admit
[/quote]
Yeah a bunch of guys are very delusionnal! I was one of them…