Maximum Muscular Bodyweight

[quote]Wyzz Kydd wrote:
I am assuming that you used some type of multivariate regression analysis for your study? What was your margin of error and your confidence level?[/quote]

Thanks for the kind words.

I’ve done several regressions with this data over the years. The original (and perhaps still most accurate) was a multivariate exponential regression. In fact, the linear equations presented in the article were actually derived from that original model and then matched with the actual data afterwards. And aspects of that original model were drawn from very large population bases. For instance, from U.S. Army stats of thousands of men it can be determined that men’s weight increase by 3.125% for each inch of height. I compared this to top drug-free bodybuilders and found that to be true as well (with deviations across the board due to bone structure - which can also be analyzed similarly - I used several anthropometric studies to do that).

Then, to help set an upper limit on lean body mass I referenced Kouri and Pope’s work with the fat-free mass index.

Based on only the bodybuilders used in the data set the margin of error would be 6.1% with a confidence interval of 90%. So 90% of bodybuilders will not exceed these predictions by more than 6.1% …but those champion bodybuilders themselves were chosen from hundreds of competitors and were judged to have the best-developed physiques. For instance, Reg Park soundly defeated 42 other competitors at the 1951 Mr. Universe contest. He had, clearly, the most fully developed muscular physique of the 43 competitors on-stage that night (photos of the lineup clearly show this). Each one of the 25 world and national champions used in the “study” can also make that claim. With few exceptions, the winner has the biggest, most balanced muscular physique. If it is assumed that each champion also defeated 42 others when they won their titles then the margin of error would be 3.1% with a confidence interval of 95%. But those 42 bodybuilders were also good enough to make it to national and world-level competition themselves. How many did they each defeat to get there?

So I really can’t put an error margin and confidence level on this that would be applicable to the general training public.

I find it amusing how many people are getting personally angered by their perception that I’m claiming to know their absolute limits of potential. I never made such claim and that is stated clearly in the article. However, what I am clearly saying is that if you intend on surpassing the predictions of the equations you are also intending to be equal to or greater than, with regards to muscular size and balance, the world’s greatest drug-free bodybuilders. Perhaps next year’s WNBF Overall champion is reading this, but 99.9% of the population are nowhere near his level of development (and never will be) and need appropriate goals and expectations from drug-free bodybuilding.

[quote]Eric22 wrote:
Professor X calling someone out, man thats a first.

I challenge you to find 10 posts in a row by Prof Big head (literally and figuratively) where he doesnt try and pick a fight with someone . Surely this is the pot calling the kettle black

[/quote]

10 in a row? How about 4 or 5?

But hey, if you had to pull teeth from screaming patients all day, you’d be in a pissy mood too! ;D

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Actually, that isn’t the issue. One of the issues was why anyone would attempt to do so as a beginner when all it will do is cause people to work less hard if they believe their potential is stunted long before they ever reach it.
[/quote]

Really? Thats an assumption on your part, one that is unsupportable. One could argue likewise that unrealistic expectations - ie if you work real hard (and BUY OUR PRODUCTS!) you too can look like Ronnie etc - will injure longterm potential.

I would say (and have said) that if you are merely training hoping to look like your favourite pro bber then likely you will get frustrated before too long and give up.

However, if you are training because you enjoy it then it wont matter a whole lot if you ever look like Reg Park or Ron Coleman or Professor X, and, unlike those that gave up trying to obtain an impossible goal, you get the last laugh by enjoying a lifetime of exercise.

Personally, I think the calculator seems gimmicky, and in that sense might agree. However, others could do like me and simply NOT USE the calculator.

And use it or not one obviously doesnt take their training too seriously if they are deflated that easily. And if they are deflated with the suggestion that 17" arms are more likely achievable than their current rosy-eyed goal of 22" arms, then such is the nature of reality.

You make it sound that aspiring bbers train in a vacuum, until some “bitter” scientist comes along to try to stunt their growth and steal their dreams.

Id be willing to bet that most aspiring bbers saw pictures of someone, likely a pro, and said “I want to look like that”. Add to that the hype from media and supplement companies that all say the same thing: “heres how you can look like that - $$$”.

That people can “exceed statistics” has only been an issue with you, its a strawman argument. Its stated in the study, clearly I thought, and has been repeated ad nauseum throughout this thread, including the author, that people can and do “exceed statistics”. So, “WTF”?

So you would accept the judgement for potential based on a few months in the gym but not a startling correlation of data derived from those who have trained for decades and reached the pinnacle of their pursuit?

Again, a strawman argument. That people do “fall outside that mark” was clearly admitted by the study, so I dont see how you can make an argument where none has ever existed. Unless you are just arguing for the sake of it.

Really? You think physiologically individuals are so unique from each other? Data (and theory) is only useful if we know everything there is to know?

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Airtruth wrote:

?.
Well, that may be what you got from the article, and if it in some way helped you then great.

But, the title of the article is “Your Maximal Muscular Bodyweight”. That title says nothing about proportion. Also, the very first sentence says “For a drug-free bodybuilder trying to develop maximum muscle mass, the knowledge of how much muscle can be developed without the use of anabolic drugs would be a very valuable asset.”
[/quote]

You reiterated my point in your quote “…drug-free bodybuilder…” Bodybuilders are not trying to get one muscle group large and skip others, they look for maximum size, symmetry, proportion, and definition. Therefore you are wrong it IS outlining correct amount of muscle mass to remain proportional.

Again yes “THEIR maximum muscular bodyweight” but do not forget you are assuming from the earlier quote they are interested in sport of bodybuilding whether as hobby or pro. You can not forget just because you have reached the middle of the article that the focus has changed from the beginning which is drug free natural bodybuilder.

You?re talking about a totally different topic. It’s not about 90% larger then the average person, if you want to look at it compared to the average person then you would have to say 90% larger PROPORTIONATELY then the average persons leg.

In which case YES the upper body would be 10% smaller proportionately than the average persons upper body. You can’t help but to reach 100%. For example if the average mans leg is 15% of his body weight, and you have a leg that is proportionately 90% bigger than the average mans leg, then your leg would have to be 28.5% of your bodyweight and your upper body would HAVE to be smaller proportionately.

[quote]
Your upper body would be just as muscular as the average guy’s (if not bigger) and therefore you would exceed the “maximal” predicted weight by 90 lbs (which would be huge from a statistical standpoint).

This is not saying don’t use the formula just that in order to dispute the claims of the formula you would have to be viewed by judges to be proportionately correct, which the champions tend to be, which is why the won.

But judges views have changed over the years, they’re subjective. This article is claiming objective statistical predictions of maximal muscular bodyweight. The guys in the article won their championships because they most closely fit the judges “ideal” of what a muscular man should look like. That is all.

However, aesthetic preferences change with time. Today, none of those physiques would win them a Mr. Olympia title. Why? Because the aesthetic ideal has changed. Yes, steroids have been introduced into the equation, but the reason why you see guys with bodies like Ronnie winning the Olympia isn’t because steroids are now available. The reason is because that’s what the judges want to see.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]
Maybe judges views have changed over time, but this guy is claiming he has used champions from the past and current which means his formula holds true even now.

Ronnie IS NOT WINNING DRUG FREE NATURAL BODY-BUILDING competitions THEREFORE you can not compare him to this article.

[quote]Casey Butt wrote:
Wyzz Kydd wrote:
I am assuming that you used some type of multivariate regression analysis for your study? What was your margin of error and your confidence level?

Thanks for the kind words.

I’ve done several regressions with this data over the years. The original (and perhaps still most accurate) was a multivariate exponential regression. In fact, the linear equations presented in the article were actually derived from that original model and then matched with the actual data afterwards. And aspects of that original model were drawn from very large population bases. For instance, from U.S. Army stats of thousands of men it can be determined that men’s weight increase by 3.125% for each inch of height. I compared this to top drug-free bodybuilders and found that to be true as well (with deviations across the board due to bone structure - which can also be analyzed similarly - I used several anthropometric studies to do that).

Then, to help set an upper limit on lean body mass I referenced Kouri and Pope’s work with the fat-free mass index.

Based on only the bodybuilders used in the data set the margin of error would be 6.1% with a confidence interval of 90%. So 90% of bodybuilders will not exceed these predictions by more than 6.1% …but those champion bodybuilders themselves were chosen from hundreds of competitors and were judged to have the best-developed physiques. For instance, Reg Park soundly defeated 42 other competitors at the 1951 Mr. Universe contest. He had, clearly, the most fully developed muscular physique of the 43 competitors on-stage that night (photos of the lineup clearly show this). Each one of the 25 world and national champions used in the “study” can also make that claim. With few exceptions, the winner has the biggest, most balanced muscular physique. If it is assumed that each champion also defeated 42 others when they won their titles then the margin of error would be 3.1% with a confidence interval of 95%. But those 42 bodybuilders were also good enough to make it to national and world-level competition themselves. How many did they each defeat to get there?

So I really can’t put an error margin and confidence level on this that would be applicable to the general training public.

I find it amusing how many people are getting personally angered by their perception that I’m claiming to know their absolute limits of potential. I never made such claim and that is stated clearly in the article. However, what I am clearly saying is that if you intend on surpassing the predictions of the equations you are also intending to be equal to or greater than, with regards to muscular size and balance, the world’s greatest drug-free bodybuilders. Perhaps next year’s WNBF Overall champion is reading this, but 99.9% of the population are nowhere near his level of development (and never will be) and need appropriate goals and expectations from drug-free bodybuilding.[/quote]

A question was raised by Sentoguy re aesthetics (emphasis on balance over size). The article does refer to mass and symmetry, but seems to stress mass potential.

The study assumes that optimum mass was the goal for all body parts whereas symmetry would sacrifice mass for balance. By accounting for symmetrical mass you are bound to limiting the results as relevant for natural bbers only, as only they put equal ephasis on symmerty and size, whereas a powerlifter or linebacker has other uses for muscle.

However, to be fair to the study, the powerlifter or linebacker isnt after muscle atrophy but pure strength. So why this study should apply to population outside of bbers in order to be valid remains unclear to me.

The Dave Tates arent bbers, arent trying to build aesthetically pleasing muscles and would not care less whether they could grow 22" arms or not, so this study is of no interest to them at all.

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

You reiterated my point in your quote “…drug-free bodybuilder…” Bodybuilders are not trying to get one muscle group large and skip others, they look for maximum size, symmetry, proportion, and definition. Therefore you are wrong it IS outlining correct amount of muscle mass to remain proportional.
[/quote]

No, because proportion is once again a subjective term. Most bodybuilders (and aspiring bodybuilders) of today would look at someone like Steve Reeves and say, “Wow, he had some great genetics, but his lower body needs more work”.

I personally would say that his lower body was proportionally small compared to his upper body. Disagree with me if you want, but, all either of us has to stand on is our opinion, which is, all the concept of proportion is.

But, once again, you are making the mistake of thinking that there is something physiologically different between a drug free bodybuilder and a recreational weightlifter or athlete in another sport. If the calculator applies to a drug free bodybuilder, then it should apply to anyone reading the article.

The premise of the article is that the author has found a correlation between bone structure size and maximal muscular bodyweight potential. The fact that someone is or isn’t an aspiring bodybuilder (a profession, not a subset of the species) is irrelevant.

Nonsense, the mistake you are making is putting a genetic ceiling on the example. Sorry, but I’ve never seen someone who has legs that are 90% larger than the average persons who’s upper body was then somehow retarded in it’s ability to grow muscle. Have you?

The problem is that you are operating from the assumption that this person can only possibly weigh 200 lbs, when in reality, if they had the genetic potential to have 90% more lower body muscle than the average person, they would almost certainly surpass that 200 lb mark.

Well, yes you have to eventually reach 100% of bodyweight, but my point is, that 100% does not have to equal 200 lbs.

The reason I used Coleman as an example is that his physique is not due to the presence of steroids. Steroids have been around since the 1950’s. Arnold admittedly took them, but look at a picture of him next to a picture of Coleman, notice how Coleman looks huge comparatively (especially in his lower body).

The reason you see guys of Coleman’s size is because that is what the judges want to see. That is their “ideal” of what Mr. Olympia should look like. Nothing more, nothing less. If they still wanted to see guys who looked like Steve Reeves, then guys who looked like Reeves’ body would be winning the Mr. O.

So, my point in all of this is that one possible reason why the statistics line up so well between the Golden era guys is because they were all going for a certain aesthetic. I’ve already addressed this in a reply to one of Socrates’ posts.

Also, I’m not completely discounting the possibility that the stats in this article couldn’t have some basis in fact. They could. But, if so, then they must apply to all drug free humans, not just drug free bodybuilders.

That and the author is making the assumption that the primary focus of all of the men in the study was for maximal potential size, when this may not have been the case at all.

Good training,

Sentoguy

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

That and the author is making the assumption that the primary focus of all of the men in the study was for maximal potential size, when this may not have been the case at all.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

Sentoguy, you make an interesting point re symmetry, which Im still getting my head around. However, are not bodybuilders the only ones who train for proportional size? Everyone else in the weight-game are trying for functional mass, as it pertains to the objective. So the powerlifters arent the ones this study’s claims pertain to. The best sample to draw from would be those who are attempting to build muscle all-round, as they would be the most developed.

If anyone in the general human population trains for size, in any era, it is the bodybuilder. Powerlifters, Olympic lifters, linebackers etc all do not train for hypertrophy, so these would not likely make for all-round (symmetrical) lean mass potential.

The only thing that remains a question for me is whether the potential gains of the pre-steroid bbers were limited by aesthetic choice. However, as pointed out, current nat bbers also fit within predicted findings.

ok so if a powerlifter or whatever with measurments exceding these maximum genetic muscule potn, (with lets say 10% bf)

it is becuase he didn’t train for symetry and didn’t focus on hypertrophy, I am confused.

not trying to put words in your mouth just not sure what you meant by the last part of your last reply.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Eric22 wrote:
Professor X calling someone out, man thats a first.

I challenge you to find 10 posts in a row by Prof Big head (literally and figuratively) where he doesnt try and pick a fight with someone . Surely this is the pot calling the kettle black

10 in a row? How about 4 or 5?

But hey, if you had to pull teeth from screaming patients all day, you’d be in a pissy mood too! ;D

[/quote]

I’ve never had a screaming patient.

Yes, I am THAT good.

[quote]KO421 wrote:
ok so if a powerlifter or whatever with measurments exceding these maximum genetic muscule potn, (with lets say 10% bf)

it is becuase he didn’t train for symetry and didn’t focus on hypertrophy, I am confused.

not trying to put words in your mouth just not sure what you meant by the last part of your last reply.[/quote]

You’re not confused. You are just saying what many of us have been. If people in other sports can grow past these measurements, obviously the words “potential” shouldn’t even be included in that article. There also shouldn’t be a calculator attached to it as it loses its relevance apparently the moment you discuss any other athlete other than a bodybuilder.

Most of the people in the gym who have gained the most muscle don’t even compete (or at least not yet). That means it makes little sense to discuss “potential” yet exclude everyone in any other activity who passes up your “extreme”.

Sentoguy’s point about the ideal proportions of the time is also a HUGE factor. If they didn’t even consider having larger legs until the likes of Platz hit the stage, why ignore that when coming up with a sign of leg growth potential? My quads are currently nearly 5" over my “ideal” according to that chart. It might have made me a “freak” in 1957, but it doesn’t in 2007. In fact, some might even consider my legs a little on the small side.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
<<< That and the author is making the assumption that the primary focus of all of the men in the study was for maximal potential size, when this may not have been the case at all.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

This single point is enough to cast to doubt on the conclusions. Not that Casey did a “bad” job putting this together, but this kind of thing never delivers more than interesting discussion when subjected to close methodical scrutiny. That’s just where we are in history. We do not have the data or a way to gather it at this point to hope for any more than that.

I haven’t sat down and figured it out, but I’m pretty sure I’ve even surpassed what this would predict for me. I weighed a fairly soft 157 in 1991. I weigh a not much more soft 234 as of 5 minutes ago and that with a 13 or so year layoff.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Eric22 wrote:
Professor X calling someone out, man thats a first.

I challenge you to find 10 posts in a row by Prof Big head (literally and figuratively) where he doesnt try and pick a fight with someone . Surely this is the pot calling the kettle black

10 in a row? How about 4 or 5?

But hey, if you had to pull teeth from screaming patients all day, you’d be in a pissy mood too! ;D

I’ve never had a screaming patient.

Yes, I am THAT good.[/quote]

You mean, the drugs are that good.

[quote]sharetrader wrote:
IronWarrior24 wrote:
I say fuck what this statistical analysis says. Don’t let this shit crush your hopes or dreams. Use this as fuel for the fire. Go lift. Get bigger than anyone thinks you can. Prove the people who doubt you wrong. After all, your only limits are self-imposed.

You wish. I issue a challenge to all those who say this analysis is BS. Prove it. Get yourself into bodybuilding contest shape, take the pics to prove it, take a pic of yourself on the scales weighing more than this formula predicts.

I predict there will be exactly zero people who succeed. What is more, I doubt if there are any of you out there who have the guts to take up the challenge. After all, you might be proved wrong.[/quote]

Tempting challenge…is there a prize when I win?

[quote]Mad Titan wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
IronWarrior24 wrote:
I say fuck what this statistical analysis says. Don’t let this shit crush your hopes or dreams. Use this as fuel for the fire. Go lift. Get bigger than anyone thinks you can. Prove the people who doubt you wrong. After all, your only limits are self-imposed.

You wish. I issue a challenge to all those who say this analysis is BS. Prove it. Get yourself into bodybuilding contest shape, take the pics to prove it, take a pic of yourself on the scales weighing more than this formula predicts.

I predict there will be exactly zero people who succeed. What is more, I doubt if there are any of you out there who have the guts to take up the challenge. After all, you might be proved wrong.

Tempting challenge…is there a prize when I win?

[/quote]

Since you already look better than most old timers it does not seem like a fair challenge.

[quote]KO421 wrote:
ok so if a powerlifter or whatever with measurments exceding these maximum genetic muscule potn, (with lets say 10% bf)

it is becuase he didn’t train for symetry and didn’t focus on hypertrophy, I am confused.

not trying to put words in your mouth just not sure what you meant by the last part of your last reply.[/quote]

I think what I am suggesting is that a powerlifter or linebacker is not going to have the same build as a champion bber. Your hypothetical is Im sure possible (in the way that anything is) but highly unlikely. To suggest that a powerlifter etc is likely to “accidentally” build a champion-caliber bber build is I think disingenuous.

Therefore, the study focuses on the sport of natural bbing, specifically champions. I dont see anything wrong with that. If you are a powerlifter, linebacker etc you wont care about this study because you have different objectives anyway.

All these respondents with massive legs etc are not bbing champions, and seem to assume that because they have great quads going that naturally the rest of their body would follow. This is not a given. At this point Im not sure if the study is remiss in clarifying the importance of quality (symmetry) along with quantity, as everyone seems to be focusing on its limiting of development.

Also, the study included current day champions with 50s era champs, so I dont understand why people are parking on the idea that development was limited by aesthetic appeal peculiar to the 50s era.

Finally, Im getting the sense that the real “meat” of discussion perhaps concerns more the studies that this study draws from, which I admit I know nothing about. How controversial or established are these studies and how well do they relate to the premise? The author is drawing from I assume broader scientific research to support his own.

Looks like you have gone dow hill since then

With a donut in the other hand

[quote]Mad Titan wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
IronWarrior24 wrote:
I say fuck what this statistical analysis says. Don’t let this shit crush your hopes or dreams. Use this as fuel for the fire. Go lift. Get bigger than anyone thinks you can. Prove the people who doubt you wrong. After all, your only limits are self-imposed.

You wish. I issue a challenge to all those who say this analysis is BS. Prove it. Get yourself into bodybuilding contest shape, take the pics to prove it, take a pic of yourself on the scales weighing more than this formula predicts.

I predict there will be exactly zero people who succeed. What is more, I doubt if there are any of you out there who have the guts to take up the challenge. After all, you might be proved wrong.

Tempting challenge…is there a prize when I win?

[/quote]

I think a 6-pack would be an appropriate prize :wink:

[edit] I just checked your pics on your profile - you already have a 6-pack. Awesome build, man. Muchos props. You must be fairly close to the formula now, am I right?

[quote]sharetrader wrote:
Mad Titan wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
IronWarrior24 wrote:
I say fuck what this statistical analysis says. Don’t let this shit crush your hopes or dreams. Use this as fuel for the fire. Go lift. Get bigger than anyone thinks you can. Prove the people who doubt you wrong. After all, your only limits are self-imposed.

You wish. I issue a challenge to all those who say this analysis is BS. Prove it. Get yourself into bodybuilding contest shape, take the pics to prove it, take a pic of yourself on the scales weighing more than this formula predicts.

I predict there will be exactly zero people who succeed. What is more, I doubt if there are any of you out there who have the guts to take up the challenge. After all, you might be proved wrong.

Tempting challenge…is there a prize when I win?

I think a 6-pack would be an appropriate prize :wink:

[edit] I just checked your pics on your profile - you already have a 6-pack. Awesome build, man. Muchos props. You must be fairly close to the formula now, am I right?[/quote]

yes last time I checked 2 or so years ago I was pretty close I haven’t checked recently

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Mad Titan wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
IronWarrior24 wrote:
I say fuck what this statistical analysis says. Don’t let this shit crush your hopes or dreams. Use this as fuel for the fire. Go lift. Get bigger than anyone thinks you can. Prove the people who doubt you wrong. After all, your only limits are self-imposed.

You wish. I issue a challenge to all those who say this analysis is BS. Prove it. Get yourself into bodybuilding contest shape, take the pics to prove it, take a pic of yourself on the scales weighing more than this formula predicts.

I predict there will be exactly zero people who succeed. What is more, I doubt if there are any of you out there who have the guts to take up the challenge. After all, you might be proved wrong.

Tempting challenge…is there a prize when I win?

Since you already look better than most old timers it does not seem like a fair challenge.[/quote]

well he did issue the challenge to all who thought it was bs

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
<<< That and the author is making the assumption that the primary focus of all of the men in the study was for maximal potential size, when this may not have been the case at all.

Good training,

Sentoguy

This single point is enough to cast to doubt on the conclusions. Not that Casey did a “bad” job putting this together, but this kind of thing never delivers more than interesting discussion when subjected to close methodical scrutiny. That’s just where we are in history. We do not have the data or a way to gather it at this point to hope for any more than that.

I haven’t sat down and figured it out, but I’m pretty sure I’ve even surpassed what this would predict for me. I weighed a fairly soft 157 in 1991. I weigh a not much more soft 234 as of 5 minutes ago and that with a 13 or so year layoff.[/quote]

How do you know “where we are in history”??