[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
Rippetoe looks like and over sized coyote turd.[/quote]
As a 56-year old who’s been coaching people since you and I were in diapers, has the respect of the overwhelming majority of his peers (professionals, not armchair trainers), and still has a 500 deadlift, I’m sure he’s heart-broken that you don’t find him aesthetic enough.
You’re saying this based on your experience as a coach, your experience trying the program for a few months, or your experience as mountain biker/rock climber with a few years of lifting under your belt?
Way to sound cool in front of the big guys. It probably worked.[/quote]
The starting strength debate has been rehashed over and over again. At this point, there is really nothing to debate. Defending SS in the body building forum is pointless. The only credit I would give rip is for staying strong and doing a good job selling his product.
I find it interesting that you feel the need to defend another coach with a sub par physique. Practicing what you preach goes along way to validate your product or service. I would much rather read an article by Nate Myaki or Clay Height than a has been powerlifter with a 50 inch waist.
As the saying goes- “Form dictates function.”[/quote]
For goodness sakes if you want to quote the deadlift video post use this one. I have fixed the quotes for you all.[/quote]
Thanks man, sorry didn’t mean to jack up, wondered what I had done wrong.
For goodness sakes if you want to quote the deadlift video post use this one. I have fixed the quotes for you all.[/quote]
That drives me nuts. I used to think people were morons and just fucked up the quote, but its actually because T-Nat’s top of the line, super duper awesome forum software doesn’t put a carriage return between the video link and the end quote brackets, so you end up with skewed garbage. I’m sure they will address it in a forthcoming software update by the year 2015.[/quote]
[quote]knotginuwhine wrote:
BTW I’ve never done Starting Strength or read it but I know the principles and in my experience and opinion they are light years ahead of the Weider pap for non-cyclist beginners.[/quote]
Why do you say that? Serious question.
What have you seen is particularly wrong with the Weider principles?[/quote]
My opinion from my experience is that everyone plateaus in size and in strength and in any capacity you’re trying to train.
Weider principles solution,(very much my opinion), more drugs.
There are bodybuilding programs, (I used to use DC, didn’t really enjoy it but looked my best so I guess that was my best program as far as other men looking at me? weirdos), that program around plateaus.
And ALL powerlifting/athletic ones seem to, in SS’s case I think it’s that you start a more advanced program when you plateau, again I haven’t read it.
Weider principles,(again very much just my opinion), seem to work best for people who use ever increasing quantities of exogenous what nots to exceed plateaus.
Ever notice how all the “instinctual” training guys, you know the one’s with no log books, either remain the same using the same weight at the same size or clearly use drugs, because that is both my perception and contention.
Squatting, pressing and pulling should be at a minimum 95% of a beginers focus and effort and endogenous hormone utilization, again that is my opinion and experience, only, which means nada, find out by yourself put the time in, and dowhachlike.
What I don’t get if this is a strength program, why is there such a hardon for these guys that do it to post BEFORE AND AFTER PICS? Last time I check if you want to show off your size gains you are BodyBuilding, or am I missing something?
[quote]MickyGee wrote:
I find it humorous that I was Googling “rippetoe success stories” to find the alleged article where he brags about getting some kid fat, and this is one of the first few links… lol[/quote]
Ohh and gotta love the way in which they throw around 300lb Bench and 400+ squat around that program too. Apparently every goober who starts that program after 2 years his benching 3x5 for 315lbs and 400lbs squatting.
Seems legit.
[/quote]
It only seems “non-legit” to someone that doesn’t have the talent or work ethic to make it happen.
You’ve already established that you’re not strong. Do you have any pictures that lends credence the notion that you aren’t focused on strength and rather about size (or ‘aesthetics’ LOL)? Or are you just another forum-hanger trying to break the 5,000 post barrier (mostly in off-topic threads)?[/quote]
Lol, really dude? You honestly think Starting Strength, A PROGRAM MEANT FOR BEGINNERS, has helped them reach a 300lb+ bench? You fucken really think that?
I started this thread for fun and you guys have made it an intersting thread.
I’d hate to come off like I think I’m better than Rip, I have nothing against Mark Rippetoe.
I mean don’t get me wrong I’m not a fan of SS or GOMAD and I’ve read a few things and ideals that I disagree with in some of Rip’s articles but nothing major I don’t hate him and his existience I mean some of his advice is good haha.
And I also feel like a lot of people blindly recommend the SS program for no real solid reason, more so on other forums.
…
Oh and that success story about Zack really genuinely sucks.
[quote]MickyGee wrote:
I find it humorous that I was Googling “rippetoe success stories” to find the alleged article where he brags about getting some kid fat, and this is one of the first few links… lol[/quote]
Ohh and gotta love the way in which they throw around 300lb Bench and 400+ squat around that program too. Apparently every goober who starts that program after 2 years his benching 3x5 for 315lbs and 400lbs squatting.
Seems legit.
[/quote]
It only seems “non-legit” to someone that doesn’t have the talent or work ethic to make it happen.
You’ve already established that you’re not strong. Do you have any pictures that lends credence the notion that you aren’t focused on strength and rather about size (or ‘aesthetics’ LOL)? Or are you just another forum-hanger trying to break the 5,000 post barrier (mostly in off-topic threads)?[/quote]
Lol, really dude? You honestly think Starting Strength, A PROGRAM MEANT FOR BEGINNERS, has helped them reach a 300lb+ bench? You fucken really think that?
[/quote]
I benched 300 on it after about 4 months. So yeah I “fucken really” think that. A 300 bench really isn’t at all impressive dude. It’s very telling that you are doubtful of a claim of a 300 pound bench after two years of training. But that really speaks more about you than them.
But its good to see what I am working with here, since you completely ignored the fact that you don’t have a single picture here to lend legitimacy to any of your [numerous] opinions.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I benched 300 on it after about 4 months. So yeah I “fucken really” think that. A 300 bench really isn’t at all impressive dude. It’s very telling that you are doubtful of a claim of a 300 pound bench after two years of training. But that really speaks more about you than them.
But its good to see what I am working with here, since you completely ignored the fact that you don’t have a single picture here to lend legitimacy to any of your [numerous] opinions.
[/quote]
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I benched 300 on it after about 4 months. So yeah I “fucken really” think that. A 300 bench really isn’t at all impressive dude. It’s very telling that you are doubtful of a claim of a 300 pound bench after two years of training. But that really speaks more about you than them.
But its good to see what I am working with here, since you completely ignored the fact that you don’t have a single picture here to lend legitimacy to any of your [numerous] opinions.
[/quote]
Ya this is pointless.[/quote]
I think this is optheta’s way of conceding gracefully.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I benched 300 on it after about 4 months. So yeah I “fucken really” think that. A 300 bench really isn’t at all impressive dude. It’s very telling that you are doubtful of a claim of a 300 pound bench after two years of training. But that really speaks more about you than them.
But its good to see what I am working with here, since you completely ignored the fact that you don’t have a single picture here to lend legitimacy to any of your [numerous] opinions.
[/quote]
Ya this is pointless.[/quote]
I think this is optheta’s way of conceding gracefully.[/quote]
[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
I started this thread for fun and you guys have made it an intersting thread.
I’d hate to come off like I think I’m better than Rip, I have nothing against Mark Rippetoe.
I mean don’t get me wrong I’m not a fan of SS or GOMAD and I’ve read a few things and ideals that I disagree with in some of Rip’s articles but nothing major I don’t hate him and his existience I mean some of his advice is good haha.
And I also feel like a lot of people blindly recommend the SS program for no real solid reason, more so on other forums.
…
Oh and that success story about Zack really genuinely sucks.
But yeah rip seems aighty.[/quote]
You seem to enjoying your training.
That to me is more respectable and more admirable than the vast knowledge and coaches of internet “knowledge”.
To me that is job one, really all that matters.
I don’t understand training, (or really any activity, but training is especially personal), with any other goals in mind.
There was a time where I really got off on trying to maximize my gym productivity, I enjoyed that aspect of it, the learning about it, and I knew I was getting 5% of the story.
I read everything and the closest to a strength paradigm I found was 5*5 which never did anything for me, real rap, didn’t really enjoy it more than Weider didn’t get more gains.
But, that time is long passed.
Ed Coan’s program is eternally digitally freely accessible to everyone, as are every other opinion on every other set rep rest split loading scheme ever contemplated.
Those of us that trained like body builders even though we never wanted to be body builders, still are a little twitchy about our bad memories.
My goal with replying to these posts is to perhaps describe some of that angst for ya’ll.
My opinion remains that I fundamentally agree with Rip in that I believe, at least most if not any UNTRAINED young man will get his best gains from resistance training, early on, focusing 95% of his time and energy AND NATURAL HORMONE PRODUCTION squatting, pulling, pressing and doing single joint work only as applicable to stave off injury.
[quote]optheta wrote:
What I don’t get if this is a strength program, why is there such a hardon for these guys that do it to post BEFORE AND AFTER PICS? Last time I check if you want to show off your size gains you are BodyBuilding, or am I missing something?[/quote]
LOL. You’re a riot, man. First you complain that folks lose their abs when gaining weight on SS, now you’re complaining at a lack of Before and After pics when there are plenty.
For what it’s worth, and at this stage I’m sure you don’t think it’s worth much, on the official Starting Strength forums, Rippetoe actively discourages posting physique pics.
As he’s said there, “I don’t usually approve pictures like this on the Q&A. I don’t intend to start. Things get silly very quickly. … [regarding the ‘infamous Zach pictures’] A good example of exactly what I’m referring to. … Because this is not an appearance forum. It is a strength forum.”
That said, if you want to do the footwork, you can find plenty of before/after pics on other sites from people during their time on SS. It took me all of a few minutes to find the ones I already posted and I don’t see the need or point in my posting more.
As for your complaints about strength claims, Youtube is rife with people posting their lifts. Again, you do the footwork. I’m pretty sure I’m done in here. All the best.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
I guess we have different perspectives, which is fine. I think the significant strength gain and 10-15 pounds per month of bodyweight is a pretty good start for a beginner. And primarily, I wanted to show that not everybody who follows the Starting Strength program as written ends up fat, as was the running joke.
[/quote]
I agree, not everyone who does the program ends up fat. But at 10-15 lbs per month, a lot of that weight is going to be fat, especially with as low weekly volume at SS calls for.
Nothing wrong with developing your technique on the bench, deadlift, and squat (FTR, not a fan of Rippetoe’s squat advice, especially for bodybuilding purposes), but are we to believe that people in general are really that neuromuscularly challenged to need to dedicate months of time to training these lifts at the exclusion of hitting their other muscle groups with sufficient intensity to make them grow (ala a traditional bbing split)? I tend to think/find that most don’t.
And that’s where I tend to disagree with him. What that individual needs is to start eating for growth and pick a lifting program specific to their goals (in other words the Olympic lifter should do an Olympic lifting program, the thrower should do a program designed for throwing, and the bodybuilder should do a bodybuilding program.
No, it likely means their diet and motivation/intensity sucks and no matter what program they did they would have had terrible results.
[quote]The criticism of SS isn’t that it sucks as a strength building program, it’s that a poor choice for bodybuilding.
This thread was created to bash the program outright, or so it seemed from the start. Saying that Starting Strength/Rippetoe/GOMAD is “ruining” people is what I took issue with and wanted to address.
[/quote]
I can see how you might have taken it that way. I just took it to mean that it sucks for bodybuilding (since it was posted in the bbing forum).
[quote]
C’mon man, that original comment was nothing but a cheap shot at Rippetoe, trying to discredit him by saying he doesn’t look like a bodybuilder when that was never his personal goal. And the “coach looks out of shape so they shouldn’t give advice” routine is a very tired argument anyhow. If that were the case, people like Cosgrove, Staley, Dan John a few years ago, Jim Wendler (five years ago), or Dave Tate (10 years) ago should not be giving advice. (No disrespect) That’s an ignorant line of thinking, but it belongs in a different thread if any.[/quote]
Well then if bodybuilding was never his goal and he has never trained any successful bodybuilders, what is wrong with criticizing how he looks from a bodybuilding perspective? The way I see it that completely legitimizes the criticism of him as a bodybuilding coach.
And honestly, I don’t consider Dan John, Cosgrove, or Staley to be great sources for bodybuilding information either. Tate has done quite a bit of bodybuilding training and regularly trains with John Meadows (who I do consider to be a great source of bodybuilding information due to his success with himself and his clients), so he has proven his efficacy in that area. I love reading Wendler’s stuff, but I’d honestly classify him as a strength coach and not as much a bodybuilding coach.
It is not an insult to say that even though someone might be an expert in one specific aspect of a subject they may be a poor choice for a different aspect. Podiatrists and gastroenterologists are both MD’s, but I highly doubt the podiatrist would be offended if someone didn’t pick them to diagnose stomach issues. Why get so upset when someone points out that Rippetoe is a poor choice for a bodybuilding coach?
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Podiatrists and gastroenterologists are both MD’s, but I highly doubt the podiatrist would be offended if someone didn’t pick them to diagnose stomach issues.[/quote]
Completely off-topic minor gripe, but podiatrists aren’t MD’s. Not that your point isn’t still valid.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Podiatrists and gastroenterologists are both MD’s, but I highly doubt the podiatrist would be offended if someone didn’t pick them to diagnose stomach issues.[/quote]
Completely off-topic minor gripe, but podiatrists aren’t MD’s. Not that your point isn’t still valid.[/quote]
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Podiatrists and gastroenterologists are both MD’s, but I highly doubt the podiatrist would be offended if someone didn’t pick them to diagnose stomach issues.[/quote]
Completely off-topic minor gripe, but podiatrists aren’t MD’s. Not that your point isn’t still valid.[/quote]
I stand corrected. How about cardiologists then?[/quote]
Yeah, pretty much every “doctor”, except psychologists and podiatrists are MDs or DOs.
Psychiatrists (which are MDs) and gastroenterologists pretty much have no idea what the hell the other does.
Right, but I wanted the two doctors to at least both be at least a little familiar with the part of the body that the other is an expert on; just as Rippetoe and John Meadows might both have general knowledge about the other’s field of expertise, but would both be poor choices to choose as an expert source of information in the other’s specialty.
Sento, I appreciate the way you’re presenting your points and I respect your opinions as a coach. Just wanted to put that out there.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
It is not an insult to say that even though someone might be an expert in one specific aspect of a subject they may be a poor choice for a different aspect. Podiatrists and gastroenterologists are both MD’s, but I highly doubt the podiatrist would be offended if someone didn’t pick them to diagnose stomach issues. Why get so upset when someone points out that Rippetoe is a poor choice for a bodybuilding coach?[/quote]
Let’s say I’m studying to be a podiatrist and I learn about Dr. Rip, an internationally-respected podiatrist that my professors agree is one of the best around. Then I start seeing press releases and newspaper ads where people attack Dr. Rip because they did go to him for an upset stomach and they weren’t happy with the results, or they’re saying Dr. Rip shouldn’t be practicing medicine at all, even though they’ve never been to him, no one in their family has been to him, and none of their friends have been to him.
When they also start saying that anyone who follows Dr. Rip’s advice on foot care, toenail trimming, and shoe choice will end up having their feet fall off, I think I’m valid in being frustrated and speaking up about the problems with that line of thinking.
I may’ve taken that analogy on a bit of a tangent. In any case, I do think it’s safe to sum this thread up as… different coaches have different methods and points of view. If a lifter misapplies a given program, it’s not necessarily the fault of the coach or the program.
Speaking of Rip, as far as I know he has become a running gag on Pendlay’s forum. Apparently, he recommended at some point (still is?) that olympic weightlifters should squat low bar+hip drive instead of the common high-bar+upright style.
Not sure if he actually did make that recommendation, but if true he is indeed a joke.
[quote]optheta wrote:
Chris Colucci hows that Kool Aid taste?
Notice a trend in all those pictures? The guys start with defined abs then they are gone and they just look a little bit chubbier.
Ohh and everybody and there mom can bench 300lbs like its nothing after doing starting strength.[/quote]
Shit, he just put up a motherfucking cool-aid grand stand.
Good point! Most of those pics could be manipulated through pumped/unpumped photos. [/quote]
If it’s so easy to manipulate the body for pictures, why do you not look like you lift in your avatar? Your T-Nation nickanme is definitely appropriate. [/quote]
Nothing gets past you. When you’re old,washed up, and an over weight powerlifter maybe you can write a lame book also. “My battle against brotards”
I find it funny that you lump everyone that disagrees with SS as a brotard. I’m always amazed at how defensive people are of SS. I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.
