[quote]n3wb wrote:
To be honest I dont care to argue with you because I dont realy care about your opinion or about you in general.
I dont see why people are even talking to you who cares what your opinion is or how you feel.
[/quote]
Yet here you are, talking to me. If you really “dont care” that much, why not just… ya know… not post anything at all?
[quote]n3wb wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
So, let me get this straight:
You: Its wrong for guys to wear eyeliner.
Me: Why?
You: Because its unmanly.
Me: But men do other things that are considered unmanly, and you dont call those things wrong.
You: Stop whining!!
You: Im gay theres nothing wrong with that.
n3wb: OK
You: look at me!
n3wb: OK why?
You: homophobe!
n3wb: What are you talking about?
You: Let me spell it out
I am
Gay
I
Have sex
With men
Im right
Your wrong
n3wb: Fine stop whineing
You: Never Im gonna complain about random things until my man gets home and drags me off to bed.
[/quote]
You dont see why people argue with me (because you dont care what I think)… yet… AGAIN… here you are, aruging with me. Doesn’t make sense.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
n3wb wrote:
To be honest I dont care to argue with you because I dont realy care about your opinion or about you in general.
I dont see why people are even talking to you who cares what your opinion is or how you feel.
Yet here you are, talking to me. If you really “dont care” that much, why not just… ya know… not post anything at all? [/quote]
There are posters here that are very good at getting thier point across and I enjoy reading and learning other point of views regardless of the subject. You can always learn something from watching two people debate a subject.
I post if I feel like it.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
n3wb wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
So, let me get this straight:
You: Its wrong for guys to wear eyeliner.
Me: Why?
You: Because its unmanly.
Me: But men do other things that are considered unmanly, and you dont call those things wrong.
You: Stop whining!!
You: Im gay theres nothing wrong with that.
n3wb: OK
You: look at me!
n3wb: OK why?
You: homophobe!
n3wb: What are you talking about?
You: Let me spell it out
I am
Gay
I
Have sex
With men
Im right
Your wrong
n3wb: Fine stop whineing
You: Never Im gonna complain about random things until my man gets home and drags me off to bed.
You dont see why people argue with me (because you dont care what I think)… yet… AGAIN… here you are, aruging with me. Doesn’t make sense.[/quote]
I thought it was funny.
I not argueing with you.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
No, I’m not gay. If its really that big of a deal to you, yeah, I’ve hooked up with a few guys. Really didn’t get into it. My sexuality falls somewhere between “not straight” and “not gay”. We’ll go with bi, I guess, if you need a label. I prefer the term “stray”.
If its just speaking positive of masculinity, why aren’t you being negative about male teachers or men who raise children (stereotypically unmasculine things)?
So, who looks more homophobic here? The guys who express a bit of disdain for an article-
or the guy who hooks up with other guys, has to make up ambiguous descriptions for his sexual orientation, and becomes defensive about the topic?
So you’re saying that I’m… what… homophobic? In the closet? Annoyed by what I see as homophobia?
What are you trying to say?
[/quote]
You got 2 out of 3.
You appear to be gay, but don’t like it, or are very uncomfortable with it.
Cause the gay guys I know don’t mince words. They are comfortable with who they are, and secure in their sexuality.
Unlike you, who hijacks a thread with accusations of homophobia, then comes out as having homosexual experience.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
No, I’m not gay. If its really that big of a deal to you, yeah, I’ve hooked up with a few guys. Really didn’t get into it. My sexuality falls somewhere between “not straight” and “not gay”. We’ll go with bi, I guess, if you need a label. I prefer the term “stray”.
If its just speaking positive of masculinity, why aren’t you being negative about male teachers or men who raise children (stereotypically unmasculine things)?
So, who looks more homophobic here? The guys who express a bit of disdain for an article-
or the guy who hooks up with other guys, has to make up ambiguous descriptions for his sexual orientation, and becomes defensive about the topic?
So you’re saying that I’m… what… homophobic? In the closet? Annoyed by what I see as homophobia?
What are you trying to say?
You got 2 out of 3.
You appear to be gay, but don’t like it, or are very uncomfortable with it.
Cause the gay guys I know don’t mince words. They are comfortable with who they are, and secure in their sexuality.
Unlike you, who hijacks a thread with accusations of homophobia, then comes out as having homosexual experience.
[/quote]
Listen, I’m not looking for a fight, or an argument, or to start insulting each other. Just an answer: Do you agree or disagree that being uncomfortable with guys wearing eyeliner is rooted in homophobia because wearing eyeliner is assoicated with gays?
I already said I shouldnt have accused anyone of being (a) homophobe. I already apologized to the one poster that I did.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
You have yet to answer the simple question: If your only problem with guys doing some things you consider “unmanly” is that they are “unmanly”, why dont you have the same problem with all “unmanly” things?
Think about it like this:
60 years ago, if you mentioned to someone that you were doing laundry, and they replied with “You shouldnt do that, its unmanly”, I’d be saying that person was sexist. Because the underlying message would be “You shouldnt do that, its unmanly because its a womans job.”
I’m saying many of the views expressed here are homophobic becaues the underlying message is “Men shouldnt do that because thats what homosexuals do.”
[/quote]
I get that they’re mocking those things as somewhat pointless aspects of being feminine, and therefore mock-worthy for men. That’s how they differ from teaching or tending children. Those things are easily justified as being purposeful no matter the gender.
I wear pink on occasion. It flatters my skin tone. But more than that, it makes me look feminine because it’s associated in our culture with femininity. As a result, I’m inclined to wear it rarely to work, and often around the house at night. I want my husband to view me as distinctly feminine. That’s not necessarily what I want to emphasize for the folks at work, though.
Eyeliner…I like it because it accents my feminity. I don’t wear it all the time. When I do, it’s all about the girl thing. And let’s face it, the girl thing is all about the sex thing.
Capris…I wear 'em, but I really don’t know why. They show my nicely shaved legs and womanly ankles, I suppose, but eh, they’re not really particularly feminine. The boys in the 'hood are wearing shorts as long as capris, and they don’t scream “girl!” So I dunno about capris in general. (I SUFFER CONFUSION.)
Barbies? So pretty! Who could resist sending them shopping and cutting their hair? Other than my bastard brother, that is, who had it in for them. And for me! Jerk.
On the other side you have the pointless things men do. Why would I want to stand around spitting? For what purpose, unless I have a bug in my mouth? (And even then I’d probably fish it out rather than risk slobbering all over myself.) Why would I want to put my Barbie on a table and then knock it off? I mean really, WTF? How is that fun? And what about dressing like an auto mechanic and buzzing my hair? How is that going to enhance me? It’s not. So why would I do it? Unless…unless I wanted to be sexually appealing, but in the manner of today’s male, rather than today’s female.
I do all kinds of other crossover stuff, but stuff that has an obvious point, so no one bats an eye. No one will call me a lesbian if I want to work to be financially independent. If I want to be able to build a book case or fix my own bicycle. It’s only when I decide to cross over for no purposeful reason whatsoever – when I’m wearing my mechanic’s clothes and buzz and spitting on the ground and announcing a crush on Rosie O’Donnell – that people question my sexuality. And rightly so. Because at that point I’m not trying to appeal to men.
But you know, not that there’s anything wrong with that. Truly. The article seemed to be saying it’s common. That’s what everyone seemed shocked about. Not that some guys wear pink. But that a supposedly het guy would want to display feminine traits.
When I do it it’s about being perceived as a sexually appealing female. Why do you wear your pink shirt and eyeliner to bed?
Your intolerating other people being homophobes. The intolerance your showing is the same intolerance other people have to gays. So basically your doing the same thing your telling other people not to do(critize men for being effeminate or gay). This is funny to me.
HaHa i laugh.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
“Yeah, I’m uncomfortable with it because I associate it with homosexuality and that makes me uncomfortable”[/quote]
I’ll do you the favor and tell you half of what you want to hear. I associate the man crush article with homosexuality, because quite frankly having a crush on someone of the same sex seems to me to be homosexual, im pretty sure its near the definition.
And i will tell you that homosexuality makes me uncomfortable, hardly anything disgusts me more than the thought of man on man sex, however i do not have anything against gay people because of this. The idea of it is just not something i “enjoy” i guess, it is not a pleasant image for me. Does that mean I’m homophobic?
Well, I think no, because i have nothing against people that are gay, it just isnt my thing as it is apparently yours (you said you were Bi i believe)
I however will not say what you really want to hear, that pink shirts aggravate me because they remind me of gay people, or other nonsense. Gay people do not bother me, I have no issues with homosexuals. And certainly the way someone dresses does not bother me because it makes me think they are gay, like i said, i have no problems with gay people (even though the act is not pleasant for me) It may bother me because it comes across as effeminate as to me it comes across as a sign of weakness in some cases (specifically referring to the “emo” genrge here)
So there is half of what you wanted to hear, The act of gay man on man sex is not a pleasant thought for me (girl on girl different story) and the 1st article resonates with homosexuality to me (man crush). However i will not tell you what you want to hear, that i hate the article or the trends in it because of the “homosexual” references they link to. I don’t hate them even, i just don’t embrace them because they are not my idea of what a man should act like.
Now maybe you’re half happy, i dont know, you seem to take this all way too personally in my opinion, the article is not about you, grow some thicker skin if you want to hang around a place that regularly discusses cultural subjects.
Manliness is what most of us agree upon. You disagree with OUR view, therefore you are wrong because WE SAY SO.
We simply don’t have any interest in your views of emasculated men. You clearly have low testosterone and/or psychological issues.
There are other places on the internet for you to indulge in your perverted views withy like-minded people.
Comprende?
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Do you agree or disagree that being uncomfortable with guys wearing eyeliner is rooted in homophobia because wearing eyeliner is assoicated with gays?
[/quote]
Disagree vehemently, I am uncomfortable with it because I do not like the fact that many seem to need to make a statement about sensitivity through cosmetic methods when the real way to show how you truly are is through actions in your daily life.
Things such as eye liner on men come across (to me) as pointless forms of self expression of femininity that do not need to be showcased (in my opinion) because as I stated, your actions speak more volumes than your clothing style or eye liner or hair or anything.
It has nothing to do with the culture that you seem to think typically displays these things (when i think eyeliner on men i think “emo” kids before homosexuals) It has to do with the act itself being a completely pointless (in my opinion, maybe its your only way to express yourself, if so get help) way to express yourself when there are so many other options.
Most of this is in fact rooted in homophobia, in my opinion of course. What’s wrong with being homophobic? Being afraid of things that are not normal is in fact normal.
And despite whatever your opinion on homosexuality is, the truth is it is still abnormal in this world. So just let everyone avoid making politically incorrect statements, as you obviously are aware this conversation is steeped in homophobia.
Is it so hard to understand some people might not be comfortable saying politically incorrect things amd therefore mask it with the masculine argument. This is of course my opinion on this conversation, not anyone elses.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
vermilion wrote:
Professor X wrote:
…
You’re so vain…I bet you think this post is about you.
Don’t you?
You know how I know you’re gay? You quote Carly Simon lyrics.
Janet Jackson remade that song.
Everybody liked Janet Jackson.
You’re gay for knowing the original artist…and typing it correctly.[/quote]
Carly Simon is awesome.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
baretta wrote:
cough…closet homosexual…cough
-1 Man crush
Well, playing with dolls will probably make the french more manly anyways.
+1 french sissies
Third post of the thread.
So, to all of you who said the issue of homosexuality never came up in the thread till I brought it up…
I guess you were wrong, huh?[/quote]
I calls em like I see em
DAMMIT I thought “man crush” was going to be about a man who fell into an auto wreckers and got crushed. Or something similar. I was, of course, hoping he somehow survived.
Instead this rant has gone on for 5 pages and I dunno what it is about.
Transformers were after my time, I believe after that came the dino-robot things. Then pokemon - wtf is that all about? pokemon sounds as gay as possible. I hope it isn’t a verb.
If I had my time again I would have bought 4 of every toy and kept 3 in storage. Man I’d be rich today.
Hey I have seen those pink things
I think this whole argument is about the word CRUSH.
Man crush to hetero guy = man getting crushed somehow
man crush to closet gay guy = quite fancies the guy but won’t admit it. Someone not in closet doesn’t say man crush, but says, hot piece of ass.
great bloke or “me mate” is what hetero guy says about another guy INSTEAD of “man crush”
Author of article is obviously in the closet
nothing wrong with that just don’t go saying everyone else must be in the closet too
I miss my childhood toys. I had a robot that drove a car and the car had a winch and could go up walls, or you could put the winch on the robot and he had like a batman climbing cord thingy and could go up walls. It doesn’t get better than that.
[quote]baretta wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
baretta wrote:
cough…closet homosexual…cough
-1 Man crush
Well, playing with dolls will probably make the french more manly anyways.
+1 french sissies
Third post of the thread.
So, to all of you who said the issue of homosexuality never came up in the thread till I brought it up…
I guess you were wrong, huh?
I calls em like I see em[/quote]
I wasn’t trying to argue against your point. I quoted your post only because it was the first mention of homosexuality in the thread (proving those who claimed that I was the first one to mention it factually inaccurate).
I’m sorry if it seemed otherwise.
[quote]m0dd3r wrote:
I honestly don’t know what to say about this one other that to express my deepest sympathies to the author’s wife.
“Summer sizzles for Man Crushes – and there’s nothing wrong with that”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/06/08/POP.TMP?g=true
From the Article:
“If God didn’t want us to have crushes on other men, why did he make Derek Jeter so freaking cool?”
Also thought this was rather ridiculous:
“Playing with Dolls is good for young boys.”
There ya go boys, have at it.[/quote]
I haven’t looked at it or read responses yet, but this damn well better link to footage of males being the targets for anvils dropped from 20 stories.
[quote]Magnate wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
“Yeah, I’m uncomfortable with it because I associate it with homosexuality and that makes me uncomfortable”
I’ll do you the favor and tell you half of what you want to hear. I associate the man crush article with homosexuality, because quite frankly having a crush on someone of the same sex seems to me to be homosexual, im pretty sure its near the definition.
And i will tell you that homosexuality makes me uncomfortable, hardly anything disgusts me more than the thought of man on man sex, however i do not have anything against gay people because of this. The idea of it is just not something i “enjoy” i guess, it is not a pleasant image for me. Does that mean I’m homophobic?
Well, I think no, because i have nothing against people that are gay, it just isnt my thing as it is apparently yours (you said you were Bi i believe)
I however will not say what you really want to hear, that pink shirts aggravate me because they remind me of gay people, or other nonsense. Gay people do not bother me, I have no issues with homosexuals. And certainly the way someone dresses does not bother me because it makes me think they are gay, like i said, i have no problems with gay people (even though the act is not pleasant for me) It may bother me because it comes across as effeminate as to me it comes across as a sign of weakness in some cases (specifically referring to the “emo” genrge here)
So there is half of what you wanted to hear, The act of gay man on man sex is not a pleasant thought for me (girl on girl different story) and the 1st article resonates with homosexuality to me (man crush). However i will not tell you what you want to hear, that i hate the article or the trends in it because of the “homosexual” references they link to. I don’t hate them even, i just don’t embrace them because they are not my idea of what a man should act like.
Now maybe you’re half happy, i dont know, you seem to take this all way too personally in my opinion, the article is not about you, grow some thicker skin if you want to hang around a place that regularly discusses cultural subjects.[/quote]
Now, I dont mean this as an attack, at all, just a question: Do you think its possible that your discomfort with the idea of gay sex causes you to be uncomfortable with guys “seeming gay”? I’m not asking this to insinuate that you hate anyone or anything like that.
To be honest, it seems to me like you genuinely dont want to have any issues with gay people, but are still uncomfortable because them being gay naturally brings up the issue of gay sex (the idea of which you find unpleasant).
I think the whole point is that there is nothing wrong with not liking men to wear eyeliner because it is feminine,in this culture, not gay. Just because men don’t like other men to look feminine doesn’t mean they hate fags.
Why does (man wears eyeliner and another man doesn’t like it’ = ‘the second man believes the first wants it in the butt.’
I don’t like the fact that some guys dye their hair green. This makes me uncomfortable. Not because the green haired dude tosses another guy’s salad, but because it is so far from the cultural standard (which tends to exist for good reason) that it just makes me feel like it isn’t right. That doesn’t mean that it is or it isn’t “right,” either. But it also doesn’t mean that I suddenly hate punks, or gays, or guys with hairy backs, or any other social group.
You are the only one that seems completely determined to attach homosexuals to femininity.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Listen, I’m not looking for a fight, or an argument, or to start insulting each other. Just an answer: Do you agree or disagree that being uncomfortable with guys wearing eyeliner is rooted in homophobia because wearing eyeliner is assoicated with gays?
I already said I shouldnt have accused anyone of being (a) homophobe. I already apologized to the one poster that I did.
[/quote]
[quote]Gianacakos wrote:
Most of this is in fact rooted in homophobia, in my opinion of course. What’s wrong with being homophobic? Being afraid of things that are not normal is in fact normal.
And despite whatever your opinion on homosexuality is, the truth is it is still abnormal in this world. So just let everyone avoid making politically incorrect statements, as you obviously are aware this conversation is steeped in homophobia.
Is it so hard to understand some people might not be comfortable saying politically incorrect things amd therefore mask it with the masculine argument. This is of course my opinion on this conversation, not anyone elses.
[/quote]
I’ve already admitted to being out of line by accusing another poster of being a homophobe, and I apologized.
One of the problems here, IMO, is that many are afraid to even entertain the thought that homophobia may play a part in their opinons; to do so would risk “being a homophobe” and therefore a terrible, evil person.
I dont think its impossible for a person to be well meaning, good, and decent but have some views that are not. I dont think a person having a racist opinion automatically makes them the next grand wizard; likewise, if someone does have an opinion stemming from homophobia, it doesn’t make them a gay basher.
This whole thread, though, hasn’t even been about homophobia; its been about the issue of if homophobia is even present.
Perhaps the truth is neither side is completely right: that homophobia does play a small part, but I have been oversensitive about the issue.