Lower Lumbar Stability

Training Powerlifting
1

I recently injured my L5-S1 disc. I feel like I have pretty good stabilization higher up in my lumbar spine, but once I get down to L5-S1, my stabilization seems poor. I’ve been doing a lot of spinal stabilization core work in my training like weighted planks, rollouts, and pallof isometrics, and I feel like my upper lumbar stabilization is good. I also have some anterior pelvic tilt that I’ve been trying to fix, which I think may have contributed to my chances of injury.

Is there any way I could specifically train lower lumbar stabilization? (Possibly with posterior pelvic tilting exercises like dead bugs?)

2

You need to know how to fire your transversus abdominus in order to effectively do the dead bug and its variants (or even to get the most out of all abdominal/core work).
You should be able to research information on how to tell if you are correctly firing it. It is extremely important for the stability of the lumbar spine.

3

Thanks for the input, that’s incredibly helpful.

I’ll re-read Paul Chek’s “Back Strong and Beltless” because I know he had a LOT to say about the TVA.

I’m not sure if I’m firing my TVA effectively. I do know that I get enough posterior tilt for my lumbar spine to be flat on the ground even with both feet fully extended and a couple inches off the ground. Is TVA activation correlated with the ability to keep the pelvis in posterior tilt?

4

You say L5-S1 is unstable, but in what regard? In what position?

You can’t throw specificity under the bus - if you train a movement or muscle lying down like a dead bug, then stand up and get in a completely different position, carryover is going to be limited.

As far as the TVA goes, I would say that most TVA exercises, like hollowing, or core exercise while hollowing, are a complete waste of time. When just the TVA is activated, your stomach hollows. This is a very unstable position and certainly would not train this way under load. I’m not sure what quality people think this can develop and what sort of carryover could even be justified.

When contracted with other abdominal muscles, the TVA helps develop intra-abdominal pressure, but that is only in concert with the rest of the core musculature. This is simple to do and something any decent lifter does before a big lift - big breath in with the stomach and contract the abdomen.

5

[quote]challer1 wrote:
You say L5-S1 is unstable, but in what regard? In what position?

You can’t throw specificity under the bus - if you train a movement or muscle lying down like a dead bug, then stand up and get in a completely different position, carryover is going to be limited.

As far as the TVA goes, I would say that most TVA exercises, like hollowing, or core exercise while hollowing, are a complete waste of time. When just the TVA is activated, your stomach hollows. This is a very unstable position and certainly would not train this way under load. I’m not sure what quality people think this can develop and what sort of carryover could even be justified.

When contracted with other abdominal muscles, the TVA helps develop intra-abdominal pressure, but that is only in concert with the rest of the core musculature. This is simple to do and something any decent lifter does before a big lift - big breath in with the stomach and contract the abdomen.[/quote]

TVA exercises are not a waste of time. It’s all about being able to control the TVA, not just hitting a vacuum pose. Hollowing in and of itself is not a particularly useful exercise, but being able to actually contract the TVA (as in ‘flex’ it), while moving your body is critical when it comes to lumbar stability. The point of doing the exercises on the ground is it puts you in a position to learn how to use it and what it feels like, so when you are under a bar you have that mind-muscle connection.

6

read all 3 articles,

7

^^ x2 its the best compilation…do check out the core training for smart folks by Robertson in that same compilation…

8

Find material by Stuart McGill PhD. The latest research indicates that chiller is right. Learning to fire the transverse abdominus isn’t very beneficial in lumbar stabilization. You are far better off training the core muscles as a unit. McGill describes it as “locking the rib cage to the pelvis.”

9

Find material by Stuart McGill PhD. The latest research is that learning to fire the TVA by itself isn’t that useful. You are much better off training the core muscles as a group. McGill describes it as “locking the rib cage to the pelvis.” This includes the rectus, the TVA, the obliques as well as the quadratus lumborum and even the lats!

10

[quote]utHAUS wrote:
challer1 wrote:
You say L5-S1 is unstable, but in what regard? In what position?

You can’t throw specificity under the bus - if you train a movement or muscle lying down like a dead bug, then stand up and get in a completely different position, carryover is going to be limited.

As far as the TVA goes, I would say that most TVA exercises, like hollowing, or core exercise while hollowing, are a complete waste of time. When just the TVA is activated, your stomach hollows. This is a very unstable position and certainly would not train this way under load. I’m not sure what quality people think this can develop and what sort of carryover could even be justified.

When contracted with other abdominal muscles, the TVA helps develop intra-abdominal pressure, but that is only in concert with the rest of the core musculature. This is simple to do and something any decent lifter does before a big lift - big breath in with the stomach and contract the abdomen.

TVA exercises are not a waste of time. It’s all about being able to control the TVA, not just hitting a vacuum pose. Hollowing in and of itself is not a particularly useful exercise, but being able to actually contract the TVA (as in ‘flex’ it), while moving your body is critical when it comes to lumbar stability. The point of doing the exercises on the ground is it puts you in a position to learn how to use it and what it feels like, so when you are under a bar you have that mind-muscle connection.[/quote]

Maybe we are thinking of different drills? When you “flex” the tva alone, you hollow out. When you tighten up under the bar (or lying down, or wherever) and get really stiff, more than just the TVA is firing. Everything is.

The way the core musculature weaves together is not unlike the way a bulletproof vest functions. When you contract a single muscle alone it does not create much stiffness at all. The sum is greater than the parts. As Dr J mentioned, McGill has written about this extensively and calls it super-stiffness. Here is an article on the topic:

11

A quote the article outlining the way McGill recommends to rehabilitate backs and create stability:

Stage 1. Groove motion patterns, motor patterns with corrective exercise

  • basic movement patterns through to complex activity specific patterns
  • basic balance challenges through to complex balance specific environments

This is a point I’ve made on here plenty of times. Rehabilitation will never be complete if movement is not improved. Basic movement patterns must be progressed to “complex, activity specific patterns” - in other words, if you truly want to improve motor coordination, it must be specific to the task at hand.

You may start out on the ground, but eventually you must progress to the position where you are having your problems. Rarely is doing a drill on the ground going to fix a problem you have during squatting. Often times you need to start on the ground, but at some point there needs to be some sort of integration into wherever you are having the movement problem.

12

[quote]challer1 wrote:
utHAUS wrote:
challer1 wrote:
You say L5-S1 is unstable, but in what regard? In what position?

You can’t throw specificity under the bus - if you train a movement or muscle lying down like a dead bug, then stand up and get in a completely different position, carryover is going to be limited.

As far as the TVA goes, I would say that most TVA exercises, like hollowing, or core exercise while hollowing, are a complete waste of time. When just the TVA is activated, your stomach hollows. This is a very unstable position and certainly would not train this way under load. I’m not sure what quality people think this can develop and what sort of carryover could even be justified.

When contracted with other abdominal muscles, the TVA helps develop intra-abdominal pressure, but that is only in concert with the rest of the core musculature. This is simple to do and something any decent lifter does before a big lift - big breath in with the stomach and contract the abdomen.

TVA exercises are not a waste of time. It’s all about being able to control the TVA, not just hitting a vacuum pose. Hollowing in and of itself is not a particularly useful exercise, but being able to actually contract the TVA (as in ‘flex’ it), while moving your body is critical when it comes to lumbar stability. The point of doing the exercises on the ground is it puts you in a position to learn how to use it and what it feels like, so when you are under a bar you have that mind-muscle connection.

Maybe we are thinking of different drills? When you “flex” the tva alone, you hollow out. When you tighten up under the bar (or lying down, or wherever) and get really stiff, more than just the TVA is firing. Everything is.

The way the core musculature weaves together is not unlike the way a bulletproof vest functions. When you contract a single muscle alone it does not create much stiffness at all. The sum is greater than the parts. As Dr J mentioned, McGill has written about this extensively and calls it super-stiffness. Here is an article on the topic:

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/326/[/quote]

I should have been a little more specific. We seem to be in violent agreement. What I’m saying is that you do need to figure out how to fire the TVA alone first, figure out how it feels, and then learn to include it when locking up all the core musculature. I agree with every point you’ve made except that isolated TVA training is worthless. It is useful, but not to be used alone.

13

Nice to see so much advice and debate! Thanks everyone for posting.

Challer, you make a very relevant point about position. When I injured my L5-S1, I was doing suspended Good Mornings. So in order to be more specific, it’s likely my L5-S1 is weak when I’m in maximal hip flexion.

In terms of the TVA and intra-abdominal pressure, I’d been doing a LOT of work for a couple of months preceding my injury on maintaining my intra-abdominal pressure and preventing unwanted spinal motion. I started with planks, side planks, and pallof isometrics, and progressed to rollouts on a pool ball, side planks with feet suspended, and eventually weighted planks and rollouts. Upon recording my squat and deadlift form, I found I could maintain neutral spinal position to the extent that my lower back looked naturally arched.

I’m curious if it’s possible that my anterior pelvic tilt is causing me to lack stabilization and force too much motion where my hips meet my lumbar spine (i.e. L5-S1), and whether or not fixing my hip force couples would help prevent injury.

Would this be an appropriate process to follow in order to help me fix my issue?:
Address particular imbalances between muscles and force couples
Address mobility issues in t-spine and particularly hips
Learn to stabilize the spine during simple movements
Eventually apply this spinal stabilization to complex and dynamic movements

14

The Stuart McGill article was pretty helpful in terms of how the core works. It is, however, much more broad than my issue. For my purposes, is it feasable to be trying to segment the issue and just look at stability at the lumbosacral joint? Or would I be just as well off trying to apply the same concepts without the same degree of “specificity?”

The reason I ask is because I’d been applying those concepts and principles to my training. Before applying those principles, my ENTIRE lumbar spine would round on squats and deadlifts. Now, my lumbar spine looks pretty neutral. Here’s an example (please excuse the shirtlessness, I thought it would help me see what was going on in my back):

This was from about two months ago.

And about a month later. (Granted, I also fixed a lot of setup related issues as well.)
(If any of you can tell if I have poor or adequate L5-S1 stabilization in this video that would be tremendously helpful.)

As you can see, in the second video my lumbar stabilization is a lot better. I thought I’d fixed all of my problems. But on the same day as the second video, I injured my L5-S1 disc.

15

[quote]utHAUS wrote:
challer1 wrote:
utHAUS wrote:
challer1 wrote:
You say L5-S1 is unstable, but in what regard? In what position?

You can’t throw specificity under the bus - if you train a movement or muscle lying down like a dead bug, then stand up and get in a completely different position, carryover is going to be limited.

As far as the TVA goes, I would say that most TVA exercises, like hollowing, or core exercise while hollowing, are a complete waste of time. When just the TVA is activated, your stomach hollows. This is a very unstable position and certainly would not train this way under load. I’m not sure what quality people think this can develop and what sort of carryover could even be justified.

When contracted with other abdominal muscles, the TVA helps develop intra-abdominal pressure, but that is only in concert with the rest of the core musculature. This is simple to do and something any decent lifter does before a big lift - big breath in with the stomach and contract the abdomen.

TVA exercises are not a waste of time. It’s all about being able to control the TVA, not just hitting a vacuum pose. Hollowing in and of itself is not a particularly useful exercise, but being able to actually contract the TVA (as in ‘flex’ it), while moving your body is critical when it comes to lumbar stability. The point of doing the exercises on the ground is it puts you in a position to learn how to use it and what it feels like, so when you are under a bar you have that mind-muscle connection.

Maybe we are thinking of different drills? When you “flex” the tva alone, you hollow out. When you tighten up under the bar (or lying down, or wherever) and get really stiff, more than just the TVA is firing. Everything is.

The way the core musculature weaves together is not unlike the way a bulletproof vest functions. When you contract a single muscle alone it does not create much stiffness at all. The sum is greater than the parts. As Dr J mentioned, McGill has written about this extensively and calls it super-stiffness. Here is an article on the topic:

I should have been a little more specific. We seem to be in violent agreement. What I’m saying is that you do need to figure out how to fire the TVA alone first, figure out how it feels, and then learn to include it when locking up all the core musculature. I agree with every point you’ve made except that isolated TVA training is worthless. It is useful, but not to be used alone.[/quote]

Fair enough!

16

Planks(all variations), Turkish getups, and lots of glute bridges will keep your back stable and healthy.

17

[quote]Benway wrote:
Nice to see so much advice and debate! Thanks everyone for posting.

Challer, you make a very relevant point about position. When I injured my L5-S1, I was doing suspended Good Mornings. So in order to be more specific, it’s likely my L5-S1 is weak when I’m in maximal hip flexion.

In terms of the TVA and intra-abdominal pressure, I’d been doing a LOT of work for a couple of months preceding my injury on maintaining my intra-abdominal pressure and preventing unwanted spinal motion. I started with planks, side planks, and pallof isometrics, and progressed to rollouts on a pool ball, side planks with feet suspended, and eventually weighted planks and rollouts. Upon recording my squat and deadlift form, I found I could maintain neutral spinal position to the extent that my lower back looked naturally arched.

I’m curious if it’s possible that my anterior pelvic tilt is causing me to lack stabilization and force too much motion where my hips meet my lumbar spine (i.e. L5-S1), and whether or not fixing my hip force couples would help prevent injury.

Would this be an appropriate process to follow in order to help me fix my issue?:
Address particular imbalances between muscles and force couples
Address mobility issues in t-spine and particularly hips
Learn to stabilize the spine during simple movements
Eventually apply this spinal stabilization to complex and dynamic movements[/quote]

Been meaning to reply to this…

First off, I can’t give you a solid answer without more information. what type of injury did you have? Could you elaborate on ‘injury of the disc’. Full herniation or…?

In response to your pitched appropriate process, and the rest of the posts in general:

I’m trying to understand the way you think of your spine, your body, pain and injury in your brain. Your thought patterns are a bit confusing. You seem to think of “stability” and “stabilization” as a tangible. It’s an idea, not a quality we can see in a video. Your deadlift definitely looks 100x better from one video to the next, but simply because you lift with good form does not mean you’re risk free of injury.

You can still generate tons of compressive force even with good form, especially on good mornings. From a pure biomechanics perspective(and that’s just a part of the picture), if you’re not used to that kind of loading, if you have not made the soft tissue adaptations necessary to support a ton of weight, you could hurt yourself even with perfect form.

Speaking of biomechanics, your action plan seems to be heavily biomechanics oriented, which does not make sense to me. You have already stated you’ve been working pretty hard on fixing your mechanics and your form looks a looooot better, yet you still got hurt. Why would you repeat this process and expect a different outcome?

What’s your end game? Does it still hurt? In what way? When doing what? These are the kinds of questions you need to ask yourself. You have already stated that you have a feeling your hips do not like maximal flexion - you hurt your back in that position and you don’t feel strong there. Why not? How long has that been going on? What’s your injury history, and how could this relate to your recent injury?

That’s a place to start. Getting rid of back pain isn’t always (or even usually) as easy as stretching what’s tight (or doing dynamic stretching) and strengthening what’s weak. It is not that that’s a bad idea, it’s just that if it was that simple, 80-90% of the population wouldn’t be having bouts of lower back pain.

18

Thanks for the detailed response challer.

First off, I should have elaborated much more on my injury. Right now, I can’t afford any medical expenses. However, I’m very confident that this wasn’t a full herniation. I think the annulus fibrosis is just protruding but not actually ruptured, and it’s hitting my sciatic nerve.

What you said about soft tissue adaptations makes a lot of sense. While I was working on my biomechanics issues, I wasn’t doing much spinal loading, and the majority of it was pretty light. In fact, I’d probably only loaded my spine with as much weight as I used on good mornings a few times in the past 4 or 5 months, and it was never in the hips fully flexed position.

You’re right that I’m very biomechanically oriented. When I was trying to fix my movement problems, I read a lot of stuff about biomechanics from guys like Eric Cressey, Mike Robertson, Stuart McGill, etc. Another factor is the fact that I’m relatively ignorant - I’m just a kid, and I haven’t been exposed to very much information aside from what I’ve been able to find. My perspective is limited to my narrow range of experience. I realize that it makes little sense to expect different results from trying the same thing again, which is why I’m seeking advice.

The way I think about stability is the ability to resist motion, which is why I posted those videos. I realize that it involves things you can’t see like muscular co-contraction. Is this the way in which you view stabilization, or do you think my view is overly simplistic?

Your response has really helped me think about my injury in other ways, and you’ve given me a lot of good things to think about. Actually, I had experienced some Femoral Anterior Glide in my left hip about 8 and a half months ago, and it’s my left sciatic nerve that’s being pinched from doing a hip extension movement. That might point to something like a unilateral hip imbalance. Without your response, I never would have thought to think about the relationship between my current injury and that previous one, and what it might mean, so thank you again for all of your help and advice.

19

No problem.

[quote]Benway wrote:
The way I think about stability is the ability to resist motion, which is why I posted those videos. I realize that it involves things you can’t see like muscular co-contraction. Is this the way in which you view stabilization, or do you think my view is overly simplistic?
[/quote]

That’s a fine definition for stability, it’s more of just what contributes to stability (and pain). Muscular activity is neurally regulated, so you’ll never get the whole picture thinking (or studying) in terms of push vs pull, tight vs lengthened, strong vs weak. The only problem is people aren’t machines, we don’t see the world as numbers and math (except maybe this savant: The boy with the Incredible brain.... Savant autism Clip 1 - YouTube ). Everything stimulus we experience is interpreted by the brain (including pain).

As far as my approach to LBP goes:

Biomechanics is very important, don’t get me wrong. I used to have a lot of issues with LBP/SI pain and I’ve worked with a lot of people who have had those issues before as well. I quasi-periodize training load - I’m in a pretty good spot right now in terms of no LBP - but just to be safe across a 4 week cycle, if I deadlift or rack pull for my first three weeks, I’ll still minimize compressive force on the deload week. I also front squat and trap bar deadlift much more often. I rarely back squat.

Someone who’s not in such a great spot I’d make minimizing compressive load a priority (all single leg work, bar rarely on the back, either opt for dumbbells or front squat position depending on injury) and continuously cycle through movements to share load across a variety of tissues. After they start moving better and feeling better, we’d work into rack pulls or a trap bar deadlift (and swap one for the other at the end of a 4 week training cycle to share load better).

However, anyone that wants to lift heavy and is dealing with chronic LBP needs to address neural factors or sooner or later they’re going to be back to chugging NSAIDs / getting surgery.

For that I make heavy use of dynamic joint mobility, which makes up the majority of my warm-up and a bit of my cooldown (z-health, which I wholeheartedly recommend anyone to pick up the r-phase dvd), pnf stretching (which I do after each training session), and eccentric-quasi isometrics (which I also do a few times a week after training sessions - read about them in one of CT’s books).