I personally see nothing wrong with the procedure. But people are acting like some people CAN’T get rid of their love handles without it. Maybe there really are some who can’t. But in fact said people have not yet really tried. They’ve never really gotten down to a low bodyfat. They’ve been too busy bulking. Which is absolutely fine. But everyone should put the same focus and hard work into dieting once they’ve reached their desired amount of muscle that they did with bulking before they conclude, ‘Oh, I was fat. I’m destined to have these fat deposits, I cannot get rid of without a procedure.’ I do in fact see it as the same as steroids in many few ways. Very few people reach/exhaust their genetic potential before turning to steroids of those who do. I have no problem with this either. But they should be aware of and acknowledge that they are hastening and making things easier, not that they couldn’t still get bigger and stronger on their own. The same here. There may come a point where people really can’t lose any more fat healthily. But I am sure that people do and will resort to means such this Ultrashape when they could still lose fat, in trouble areas as well, while getting adequate nutrients in the shorterm and losing little to no muscle.
Come on, does anyone believe a TV personality like Oprah doesn’t have chemical assistance or the will to have surgery whenever she feels she’d like to improve her appearance?
The thing that seems to come through in these self-righteous rants is the thought that people are gorging at McDonalds or otherwise actively earning having some stubborn fat areas.
Shit, most of us are not professionals, we don’t have the ability to dedicate our lives to the pursuit of our physical improvement. Going for some non-invasive procedure on stubborn areas does not have to be any type of rationalization for not working hard.
Sure, at the same time, it could be used as that.
Hell, under this extreme logic even taking supplements would be a rationalization, and come on, that’s a bit extreme.
[quote]Dandalex wrote:
Holy crap, you can actually see when the sleepaid started kicking in…
To be honest though, I’ve been following T-Nation/Testosterone since the beginning and I have never felt it to be a purely natural bodybuilder’s forums.[/quote]
It’s not a purely natural bodybuilder’s forum. In fact, the Testosterone mission statement included the promise to:[quote]
Talk openly about steroids and take a proactive stance toward legalizing doctor-supervised use of them.[/quote]
It also includes this sentence:[quote]
We’re going to pack this website with the best hardcore, renegade muscle-building, and [/quote]fat-burning[quote] information available.[/quote]
Fat-burning, not fat sucking.
T-Nation guidelines:
The title of this forum is “The Over 35 LIFTER.” Liposuction is not bodybuilding, and it sure as hell isn’t about lifting.
No arguement about any of those methods. They all still require some effort and knowledge, but lipo, implants, and synthol don’t.
To come to a site/forum dedicated to lifting and equate lipo, implants and synthol to busting ass in the gym and smart, disciplined dieting is obscene.
[quote]
As for liposuction or their derivatives, I remember and article on abdominal etching on the very page of Testosterone.com.[/quote]
They also had an article on bodybuilders sucking dick for steroid money. You want to jump on that bandwagon?
[quote]
Also, I don’t think anybody wants to decieve anyone into the whole ‘‘I’ve achieved X on my own’’.[/quote]
Do you think the guy getting laughed at by the girls in the office is going to tell them if he chose to get lipo? Hell no. If you think they were giggling before, just wait until the find out you dropped a few grand to have your love handles sucked out.
[quote]
As the whole thing being some for of cheating, I don’t really thing anybody cares. Just like I don’t care how the girl that’s doing eleptical cardio got that superb shape that she’s into (probably not by eating an balanced diet and busting ass).[/quote]
I’m not saying it’s cheating. I’m saying it’s lazy and that it does not inherently involve diet and exercise. Just like synthol and implants.
Therefore, it has not place on a forum about lifting. At a minimum it should be in the Off-Topic section, and then it should not be rationalized by blaming genetics or anything besides sloth.
[quote]
Moreover, while I applaud anyone who’s made genuine progress, like that fat chick at my gym who must have lost 60lbs of fat in the last year…I would still bone the first one and not touch the second one with a ten-foot pole.[/quote]
I RESPECT anyone who has made geniune progress.
Does boning either of them have anything to do with lifting weights?
[quote]
Some people might feel that there is some cheating involved, be it.
But people who have opinions that tend to border on yours are few and far between. Therefore as much I you might feel there is some form of cheating, underhandeness or plain decieving, most of us can’t percieve it that way at all.[/quote]
We aren’t in a contest. There aren’t rules on how you reach your goals. No one is talking about cheating. I’m just saying don’t pretend that liposuction is the only way you can achieve your goals, and don’t equate it to lifting and dieting.
No one is talking about lipo being “unnatural.” It’s just not lifting or dieting.
Also, there aren’t “natural” alternatives to botox and breast implants.
[quote]
I still don’t think self-righteousness in such a thread is warranted or wanted.
ALexH[/quote]
Self-righteousness? Where?
Could you exercise and diet and get rid of genuine gyno?
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
I personally see nothing wrong with the procedure. But people are acting like some people CAN’T get rid of their love handles without it. Maybe there really are some who can’t. But in fact said people have not yet really tried. They’ve never really gotten down to a low bodyfat. They’ve been too busy bulking. Which is absolutely fine. But everyone should put the same focus and hard work into dieting once they’ve reached their desired amount of muscle that they did with bulking before they conclude, ‘Oh, I was fat. I’m destined to have these fat deposits, I cannot get rid of without a procedure.’[/quote]
I agree with all of that.
[quote]
I do in fact see it as the same as steroids in many few ways. Very few people reach/exhaust their genetic potential before turning to steroids of those who do. I have no problem with this either. But they should be aware of and acknowledge that they are hastening and making things easier, not that they couldn’t still get bigger and stronger on their own. The same here.[/quote]
I agree with all of that, too. Take the steroids if you want, just don’t come here rationalizing it and saying you reached your limits without them.
[quote]
There may come a point where people really can’t lose any more fat healthily. But I am sure that people do and will resort to means such this Ultrashape when they could still lose fat, in trouble areas as well, while getting adequate nutrients in the shorterm and losing little to no muscle.[/quote]
I’m sure you are right, but I don’t even care. As long as they don’t PRETEND they can’t lose any more weight and rationalize the lipo, I couldn’t care less.
doogie, I don’t think anyone on here is claiming that they just can’t get rid of their love handles without lipo. Anyone can get lean; that’s not the issue here.
The issue is that some people are genetically predisposed to fat storage along their waistline; this point isn’t really debateable. In order for these people to get rid of their love handles, they may have to drop to very low BF%'s (< 10%), and then when their BF% rises even a little bit (up to 10%-12%) the love handles come back.
Now, two issues crop up right here:
1.) For endomorphic people, it can be extremely difficult to cut down to sub-10% BF. Their genetics just don’t want them to be lean, so their bodies will fight them every step of the way. Sub-10% BF is not impossible by any means, but for these people it may be pretty tough. Compound this with the fact that endomorphic people also tend to be the ones that store fat along their waistlines and you can see why some people might (wrongly) feel that it’s impossible to lose the spare tire without surgery.
2.) As vroom stated, most of us do not pursue our lifting and physique goals professionally. For these endomorphs, the margin of error in their Exercise-Diet-Recovery routine is miniscule when they’re trying to get down to extremely low BF%'s. That means, in layman’s terms, that an endo’s E-D-R routine must be closer to perfect than an ecto’s or meso’s routine must be if the endo wants to get very lean. These near-perfect routines are also near-impossible for people to follow when they’re balancing a career and family along with their E-D-R. Bottom line, most people (not just endo’s) settle for slightly higher BF%'s (say 12% instead of 8%) in exchange for a little more leeway in their E-D-R routines.
Well, for those endo’s who are genetically predisposed to waistline fat storage, 12% BF = Love Handles.
So what now? Should they be cursed with love handles forever? Apparently doogie thinks they should. But as it turns out, shaking their fist at the sky is not the only option.
doogie, nobody here is advocating lipo in lieu of diet and exercise. But some people’s genetics dictate that anything short of near-professional E-D-R will leave them with love handles, however small. Trouble is, we don’t want love handles PERIOD!
So again, is it so terrible for these people to take advantage of a safe medical procedure for a slight benefit? It’s not like lipo is taking these people from 25% to 12%. It’s taking them from 12% to a “love handle-less” 10%.
If you think that’s a cheap cop-out, then fine; that’s your perogative. But if you’re going to claim that this is cop-out, then you’d better be following a near-perfect routine yourself.
While I’m sure he doesn’t need me to defend him:
Doogie said nothing about liposuction other than the fact that it is the lazy way to get to the end of “the race” as it were. There is no problem getting the procedure, just don’t fool yourself and tell others “It couldnt be done any other way. I was shredded with love handles”. Don’t try to rationalize the procedure is all he was saying.
By the way… I probably wouldn’t tell the chicks at the office I got the procedure.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Come on, does anyone believe a TV personality like Oprah doesn’t have chemical assistance or the will to have surgery whenever she feels she’d like to improve her appearance?[/quote]
I don’t know if she has or hasn’t, but she seems to have more self-respect than to take the easy way out.
Have you ever read or seen a report that she has? Run a google search. There is has only been one published accusation in the 20 years she’s been on the air (as far as I can tell):
http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/winfrey%20denies%20plastic%20surgery
She doesn’t seem timid about portraying liposuction in a negative light:
http://www.oprah.com/health/beauty/slide/slide_beauty_fake_06.jhtml
http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200502/20050208/slide_20050208_105.jhtml
A quote from her website (from her trainer):
http://www.oprah.com/health/bob/qa/alternatives/health_qaalt_19980826.jhtml
“There is virtually always a way to accomplish your goals without surgery. However, for many people, losing that final problem area represents an amount of work and discipline that they feel is unreasonable.”
[quote]
The thing that seems to come through in these self-righteous rants is the thought that people are gorging at McDonalds or otherwise actively earning having some stubborn fat areas.[/quote]
YOU acknowledged people are actively earning have some stubborn fat areas and that they take the easy way to skinny. Read what you’ve written in this thread.
You justified needing liposuction earlier by saying it was because you were a former fat bastard saying, “due to the past your body won’t cooperate.” You even said that maybe with “serious effort” you might be able to get rid of the love handles.
I don’t know how fat you were. I do know you have to get REALLY fat in order to actually produce new fat cells after puberty. If you got that fat, you ACTIVELY earned some stubborn fat areas and you were lazy.
If you weren’t fat enough to make new fat cells, then it eventually comes down to burning the calories that are stored in your love handles.
Do you feel the same about 25" arms and synthol?
20" calfs and implants?
“Excuses are like assholes” and all that.
Just don’t pretend you couldn’t do it any other way because of your genetics, and don’t pretend it has anything to do with lifting.
Say, “I don’t want to spend that much time and effort on looking good so I’m going to get lipo. I realize this has absolutely nothing to do with lifting or dieting or dedicating myself to self-improvement.”
Non-invasive?
According to the FDA, a survey conducted by the American Society of Plastic Surgeons (ASPS) of more than 1,500 plastic and reconstructive surgeons in January 1999, there was an unexpected high death rate of one in every 5,000 (or 20 out of 100,000) liposuction patients between 1994 and 1998
The original poster asked, “are some people just genetically predisposed to have fat around the belly, regardless of bodyfat measurement?”
Sure some people are just predisposed to storing fat in their love handles and they are going to have to get really lean to lose it. We call those people “men.”
The answer to the question is “No.” Find a picture of someone at 7% bodyfat sporting love handles. You ain’t gonna do it.
Sure it’s hard work, but you can lose it. It might involve putting on a lot more muscle than you have now, it might involve planning everything your eat and every workout for the next two year, but it can be done.
You aren’t going to do it by getting down to 10% bodyfat and giving up.
You aren’t going to get there by worrying about other people in the gym:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1063200
Or making excuses for failure:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1042083&pageNo=0#1045318
[quote]
It’s like my body is telling me “you’re not allowed to bench over 225lbs or squat over 250, or grow arms over 16 inches”. My heart and mind are willing, but my body is holding me back. Overall, I’m in fantastic shape, but everything seems to hurt.[/quote]
or by not knowing what the benefits of fishoil are:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1042083&pageNo=0#1045318
[quote]
So what exactly does fish oil do?[/quote]
or poo-pooing advice:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1042083&pageNo=0#1045318
You aren’t going to do it if after a month on this site the best recommendation you can give a fatty for cutting is to do the “kick ass” body-for-life workout.
You can’t claim 15 years of smart eating and training yet not know anything about fish oil and come up with this workout to get you back to 10% bodyfat:
[quote]
Lift 2X’s week (full body), cardio 2-3 times 20 mins on non-lift days.
Main exercises per body part (only one exercise per bodypart per day):
CHest - Bench press and decline DB (did incline for years, trying to mix it up), 2 working sets.
Back - Bent BB rows and underhand weighted pull-ups (2 sets).
Shoulders - standing BB press and Arnold presses (2 sets).
Bicep - Machine preachers (only thing my elbow will tolerate right now), 3 sets.
Triceps - CG bench and skull crushers (3 sets).
Legs - Squats (20 reps), leg ext/leg curl.
Overall - Deadlifts for 8-10 reps (1 set).
I usually pick one exercize per bodypart and do 2-3 working sets. Next workout I do a different exercise. I have recently gotten rid of my heavy days as well as my 3rd day of lifting in order to let my body recover. Right now I keep the reps in the 8-12 range. For cardio I do 20 miuntes of HIIT on a treadmill then abs. Just started taking Fish Oil and Glucosamine. I’m 36, 5’8" and 180lbs with about 12% bodyfat.[/quote]
3 sets each of bis/tris vs. 1 set each of squat and dead?
That should pretty much put this thread to bed.
Doogie,
Quit being such an ornery bastard.
If you haven’t noticed, I’m not even discussing liposuction, because there is in fact a new and non-invasive procedure out there.
When you’ve caught up with the times, come back and let us know how you feel about options available from this millenium.
Really, it’s none of your business what people decide to do or what people decide to discuss. You don’t like it. You think people are taking a shortcut. Cry me a river.
I don’t like it that some people are stuck with low T, that some people take AAS, I like it less when people use synthol or get implants.
Everyone has their goals and their reasons. The fact I’m willing to consider a non-invasive procedure to reduce the love handle area is simply no concern of yours.
If I choose to discuss it on this forum, where I also happen to discuss my lifting habits, nutritional habits, politics and whatever else, you can live with it, ignore it, or leave.
That’s generally what you are implying right, that people discussing such things have no place here? This is the over 35 forum, I think we are old enoug to make our own decisions without your understanding or approval.
I have no issues when a hard training, disciplined person resorts to surgery or similar to get rid of the last remnants of stubborn fat. It’s when the no-training, no-disciplined fatty uses this as an easy way out. That DOES irritate me.
I’ve checked out their site (ultrashape.com) and the before/after pics aren’t that impressive. If it actually does produce results similar to liposuction without the sometimes dangerous surgery, it could be huge. Too bad they’re a private company…I’d invest in this. Seriously.
Here are some pictures of me at my leanest (10.1%bf). Note the handles. I’m about 166lbs here at 5’7". I’m now at 183lbs and still wearing the same pants. No matter how mu weight changes, my waist stays the same.
Not sure if it has been covered, but it also depends on your oblique development. So, the bigger your obliques are, they will make you appear fatter than what you really are, hence the reason you have to get real lean.
And as previously stated the best diets for this are the low-carb.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Same boat here. I’m probably at around 10% body fat and my love handles are still pretty big. I am still really young (21) and am convinced that I can lose them with a strict diet for 12 weeks at some point in the future. I don’t carry as much LBM as I want to so I don’t want to diet down that far just yet.
I did look into the liposuction just in case I ever decided to take route. I think it is perfectly acceptable to do.
One night I went out with a couple of girls from work. My uniform is long-sleeved white shirt that I wear a wife beater under, so I just took the work shirt off. Since I’m kind of known as the guy who works out and eats right, the girls were all laughing at my handles…Not a good time. My girlfriend doesn’t mind them though (too much…)[/quote]
Usually, I don’t give a rat’s ass about what women think of me. However, if someone questions my efforts I’m happy to show off a little. Just challenge them to do 1 repetition of something you can do many of. For example, just challenge them to do 1 dip, 1 pull-up, 1 hand-stand push-up, etc. If they can barely get 1 off, congratulate them… if not… they get the picture.
Regardless, bang off a dozen without breaking a sweat and since they’ve tried to do it and failed horribly, they’ll respect you a little more despite the handles. Most people are pretty smart / forgiving when they feel inferior. Show off just enough strength to get the point accross but don’t rub it in.
If you’re the strong guy, most peoples physiques are inferior. Those who have achieved more than you deserve respect… those that haven’t should respect you.
About love handles… I’m not a competative bodybuilder. They’re there and I feel great and am always getting stronger and healthier. If they don’t go away on their own (which they won’t), I prefer to love them instead of hating them. Girlfriend, family, friends… I get nothing but congratulations for my efforts.
I don’t surround myself with those that are condescending. Perhaps it’s better to spend your efforts surrounding yourself with people you love and love you than working on the love handles when you’re already at a nice 10% (I’m actually around 8%)… at least that’s the case for me.
Dont forget metafomin significantly inhibits Testosterone production. One study I read showed that LH, T and free T were significantly decreased.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Doogie,
Quit being such an ornery bastard. [/quote]
But it’s entertaining.
[quote]
If you haven’t noticed, I’m not even discussing liposuction, because there is in fact a new and non-invasive procedure out there.[/quote]
If you haven’t noticed, I am talking about liposuction. However, other than the list of risks that I posted, all of my thoughts are the same about the ultra-sound crap.
Unlike you, I’m not a little teenie-bopper who is a slave to the lastest trends 
I don’t base my judgements on right and wrong on what is available to me. What kind of man would say something is wrong only until it becomes convenient for them to take the opposite stance?
The fact that some douches in 2006 think it is acceptable to pop their collars doesn’t make it right.
The fact that in 2006 some “less than manly” people see nothing wrong with tweezing eyebrows, highlighting their hair, wearing makeup, or eating quiche doesn’t make any of those things right.
Remember this:
Effiminate vanity will never be a masculine trait.
[quote]
Really, it’s none of your business what people decide to do or what people decide to discuss. You don’t like it. You think people are taking a shortcut. Cry me a river.[/quote]
I went back and reread the original post, and I can’t see where it says “Please only post opinions on liposuction that make me feel all warm and fuzzy.”
In fact, it specifically asks for opinions on the statement that “said some people can never get rid of the handles no matter how lean without surgery. It’s a genetic thing.”
The problem is that what he meant to write is, “I’m too lazy to educate myself about diet and exercise and then combine that knowledge with discipline to lower my bodyfat to a level where my love handles disappear and I retain an acceptable level of muscle. Post your statements of agreement below.”
You don’t like me giving my opinion on a thread that specifically asked for opinions? “Tough titty” said the kitty when the milk went dry.
You don’t like me telling you that making excuses for why you can’t do this or that makes you a woman? Cry me a river.
[quote]
I don’t like it that some people are stuck with low T, that some people take AAS, I like it less when people use synthol or get implants.[/quote]
Judgemental bastard.
[quote]
Everyone has their goals and their reasons. The fact I’m willing to consider a non-invasive procedure to reduce the love handle area is simply no concern of yours.[/quote]
YOU posted about it on a thread asking for people’s opinions on whether for some people getting surgery was the only way to get rid of their love handles. Don’t start the whiney little girl crap when you don’t like my opinion.
[quote]
If I choose to discuss it on this forum, where I also happen to discuss my lifting habits, nutritional habits, politics and whatever else, you can live with it, ignore it, or leave.[/quote]
I stayed on the topic of the forum “The Over 35 LIFTER”, and of the specific thread. I gave my opion that saying you can’t lose the love handles is complete bullshit. If you don’t like my opinion–that people like you who admit that with “serious effort” they might be able to lose the love handles–are willing to get ultrasound treatment then you can live with it, ignore it, or leave.
You seem to have hoped the thread would turn into a fat-guy circle jerk with everyone telling each other that it’s not their fault. When that didn’t happen you act like I’m the one who got off-topic.
[quote]
That’s generally what you are implying right, that people discussing such things have no place here? This is the over 35 forum, I think we are old enoug to make our own decisions without your understanding or approval.[/quote]
I’m not implying anything. I’m saying it in clear English.
Making excuses for taking shortcuts has no place in ANY man’s life, even less so on a website called Testosterone, and even less yet on a forum called “The Over 35 LIFTER”.
I’m not offering you my understanding or approval. I’m responding to the topic of the thread. It hurt your delicate, former fat bastard feelings and now you want to cry foul. I don’t care, fatty. Get your lipo or ultrasound or vaginal tightening. Just don’t cry when I voice my opinion on thread that is ASKING for opinions on the topic.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
Here are some pictures of me at my leanest (10.1%bf). Note the handles. I’m about 166lbs here at 5’7". I’m now at 183lbs and still wearing the same pants. No matter how mu weight changes, my waist stays the same.
[/quote]
At the risk of sounding condescending, I’d say your bf testing is innaccurate. Whilst you do have a blocky waist the top row of abs should be clearly visible at this level of bf.
That said, the distribution of your body fat - as some posters have alluded to - suggests you’ve got some hormonal issues going on. Don Alessi and Charles Poliquin have written quite extensively on the subect.
There’s an article of Alessi’s floating around that calls for high density/volume training along with substantially increasing your intake of fibrous veg and healthy fats that I think would be of interest to you. I’ll search around and post the link.
Cheers J.
It’s hard to tell from those pictures if you have love handles or just thick oblique development. I’d be more concerned about the fact that you look like Chuy The Mexican Wolf Boy 
[quote]PGJ wrote:
Here are some pictures of me at my leanest (10.1%bf). Note the handles. I’m about 166lbs here at 5’7". I’m now at 183lbs and still wearing the same pants. No matter how mu weight changes, my waist stays the same.
[/quote]
10.1%?
Not in your wildest dreams.
Even if your were at 10.1%, though, you could still get a LOT leaner.
Up top is a picture of a guy at 5’10" 188lbs at 10%
Same guy at 5’10" 192lbs 10%
[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
doogie, I don’t think anyone on here is claiming that they just can’t get rid of their love handles without lipo. Anyone can get lean; that’s not the issue here.[/quote]
“I’m getting really frustrated with the love handles. I’m pretty lean (@ 12%BF) but still have this spare tire around my gut. Even when I was at 10%bf and 20lbs lighter my waist was the same. I saw a show on TV (one of those makeover shows) and a doctor said some people can never get rid of the handles no matter how lean without surgery. It’s a genetic thing.”
“But back to the original question…are some people just genetically predisposed to have fat around the belly, regardless of bodyfat measurement?”
“No matter what I do, my waist remains around 34” complete with love handles."
He started the thread to hear people tell him it isn’t his fault he can’t lose the love handles.
[quote]
The issue is that some people are genetically predisposed to fat storage along their waistline; this point isn’t really debateable. In order for these people to get rid of their love handles, they may have to drop to very low BF%'s (< 10%), and then when their BF% rises even a little bit (up to 10%-12%) the love handles come back.
Now, two issues crop up right here:
1.) For endomorphic people, it can be extremely difficult to cut down to sub-10% BF. Their genetics just don’t want them to be lean, so their bodies will fight them every step of the way. Sub-10% BF is not impossible by any means, but for these people it may be pretty tough. Compound this with the fact that endomorphic people also tend to be the ones that store fat along their waistlines and you can see why some people might (wrongly) feel that it’s impossible to lose the spare tire without surgery.[/quote]
[quote]
…It’s so hard for fatties…
So what now? Should they be cursed with love handles forever? Apparently doogie thinks they should. But as it turns out, shaking their fist at the sky is not the only option.[/quote]
PGJ still hasn’t acknowledged that he COULD do it if he had a decent exercise, diet, and supplementation plan. He didn’t know what the benefits of fish oil are.
Life’s a bitch for some people, and we could all rationalize all kinds of things. It is the message that “I can’t do it any other way” that is disgusting to me.
[quote]
If you think that’s a cheap cop-out, then fine; that’s your perogative. But if you’re going to claim that this is cop-out, then you’d better be following a near-perfect routine yourself.[/quote]
How about I don’t blame my genetics for the outcome of my efforts? How about instead of justifying my failure, I recognize I should adjust what I’m doing?
At what point do you think it is acceptable for someone to inject synthol into their biceps? After they have 16" arms? 18" inch? If they’ve worked to build them up to there, is there any difference between injecting synthol to get 22" arms and a guy who is clearly NOT at 10% getting his fat sucked out?