Love Handles w/ Low BF

doogie · May 15, 2006, 1:31am

[quote]
doogie wrote:
I don’t believe for a second that someone can put in 15 years of smart eating and exercising, and HONESTLY not get rid of the love handles.

vroom wrote:
It’s not a good idea to base your assumption of what works for other people based on your own experiences… as there are a lot of differences between people.

At the very least, issues such as insulin resistance, natural inclination to fat storage and base T levels (and the ability of these factors to adjust to dietary and exercise habits) all have an impact on body composition.

While I am sure that ANYONE can starve themselves and eventually achieve leanness, I am not sure of much else.[/quote]

First, if we don’t base our assumptions of what will work for other people on our own experiences (which includes all we’ve learned, all we’ve witnessed, and all we’ve done) what are we to base them on?

I’m not arguing that people aren’t all different or that all those issues you listed don’t make our individual outcomes unique when we do X,Y,and Z. That was my point (not expressed well, I admit).

What I am saying is that “smart eating and exercising” are relative terms. They are relative terms precisely BECAUSE of the issues you listed above. It’s only “smart eating and training” if you are getting closer to the outcome you are working toward. If your goal is to lose your love handles and you spend 15 years of “eating smart” and “bustin your ass in the gym” without losing the “spare tire around your gut”, the training and eating weren’t “smart” in relation to your goal.

Sure you may have been HARDCORE!!! That’s not the same as “smart.” You may have been super strict with your diet, and you may have worked 10 times as hard as anyone else ever has. But in the end, if you still have the same “spare tire around your gut” after you’ve dropped 20lbs and 2% bodyfat then your training and diet wasn’t “smart”. Rather than jumping to the assumption that “it’s genetics”, the first jump should be to step back and re-evaluate what you’ve been doing.

Use the numbers the original poster gave:

[quote]
I’m pretty lean (@ 12%BF) but still have this spare tire around my gut. Even when I was at 10%bf and 20lbs lighter my waist was the same. [/quote]

He didn’t list his height, weight, and he didn’t describe his workout or diet. What are the odds of someone on this site who is “eating and training smart” not laying that stuff out up front?

We can assign him a starting weight of 200lbs to make the math easy. Obviously his numbers would be different, but we get the idea.

200lbs at 12% bodyfat is 176lbs of lean mass and 24lbs of fat.

Weighing 20lbs less at 10% bodyfat as he stated would then break down to 180lbs with 162lbs. of lean mass and 18lbs of fat mass.

He would have lost 14 lbs of lean mass to drop 6 lbs of fat. That is not “eating and training smart”.

If he weighed less than 200 to start it was even worse than that. If he was more than 200 lbs to start, it would be a little better but he still wouldn’t have lost an equal amount of lean lbs/fat lbs unless he weighed 300lbs to start with.

We all have to find what works for us, as individuals. We can’t compare our level of effort to the anyone else or our diets to anyone else. Of course we work and eat better than 95% of the people in the world. Unfortunately we are only going to look better than 85% of the people, because there are those 10% of assholes who are just lucky and look good despite not exercising or dieting.

We just all have to find what keeps us moving closer to our goals.

(I’m sleep deprived, so if my math was wrong just call me an asshole.)

EDIT:

I just reread what he wrote, and now see that it says “even when I WAS at 10% bodyfat and 20lbs lighter.” So now he is 20 lbs. heavier and has 2% more bodyfat of then he did before (when he says his waist was the same). So instead of dropping the 20 lbs and 2% bodyfat but rather GAINED the 20 lbs and 2% bodyfat, while keeping his waist the same as before.

That would be a decent bulk (using the 200lbs assumption again, he would have gained nearly 14 lbs. lean mass and only 6 lbs of fat). Good job. Credit where credit is due.

HOWEVER, increasing your bodyfat percentage is NEVER going to get rid of love handles. That pretty much makes my point about “smart” being relative to your goals.

To post now complaining about genetics and love handles and spare tires, when you admittedly have INCREASED your bodyfat and aren’t in the best shape you could be makes no sense.

PGJ · May 15, 2006, 11:48am

[quote]

EDIT:

I just reread what he wrote, and now see that it says “even when I WAS at 10% bodyfat and 20lbs lighter.” So now he is 20 lbs. heavier and has 2% more bodyfat of then he did before (when he says his waist was the same). So instead of dropping the 20 lbs and 2% bodyfat but rather GAINED the 20 lbs and 2% bodyfat, while keeping his waist the same as before.

That would be a decent bulk (using the 200lbs assumption again, he would have gained nearly 14 lbs. lean mass and only 6 lbs of fat). Good job. Credit where credit is due.

HOWEVER, increasing your bodyfat percentage is NEVER going to get rid of love handles. That pretty much makes my point about “smart” being relative to your goals.

To post now complaining about genetics and love handles and spare tires, when you admittedly have INCREASED your bodyfat and aren’t in the best shape you could be makes no sense. [/quote]

My point is that even at my leanest (10.1%bf, I still had handles).

Here’s my stats:

5’7"
started at 175lbs and 13.7%bf. LBM 151lbs.

got down to 166lbs, 10.1%bf, LBM 150lbs

now I’m at 185lbs, (probably around 12-13%bf).

Bodyfat calculated at a local wellness center by a professional therapist via skinfold.

My waist has basically remained the same (I didn’t have to buy new pants when I got down to 166lbs). No matter what I do, my waist remains around 34" complete with love handles. Flat from the side, but wide from the front and back.

Zap_Branigan · May 15, 2006, 12:50pm

[quote]AverageJay wrote:
…

Damn, that is harsh. A good example of how hard that fat can be to get rid of is Chuck Lidell. Some people just are gonna have em unless they get them removed. Look at a lot of fighters the night of weigh in and then the next day. They have no love handles the night before, then by the fight after eating a few carbs and drinking some water they are back. Clint Eastwood is another example of a lean dude with a wide waste.

The problem is we’ve let the pediphiles that run the media dictate what is ideal. And to them it’s the physique of a 15 year old boy that is ideal. Fuc that, sport your love handles with pride. They’re the sign of a sturdy core.[/quote]

Damn straight!

Don’t let the extreme example of the Men’s Health cover model type dictate how you think you should look.

Those guys diet down and shed water to look like that. They don’t walk around like that.

Of course you should not use this as an excuse to be a fat slob either.

osito · May 15, 2006, 8:23pm

Seems the handles are the last to go. I’m 38yo and had same problem. Diet down, get leaner, still love handles. Point is only you know what you’ve tried and how you trained. I’ve trained religously for 20 yrs and if I haven’t at least learned to train somewhat intelligently then whats the point?

I did manage to drop a very noticeable amount off the handles with a lower carb, moderate fat, High protein diet. After going from 215lbs to 187lbs, I still had some handles. I am not willing to go much lower than 187lb as I was lean and vascular everywhere else.

This is an over 35 forum and most of us don’t want to lose any hard earned muscle only to go to a smaller version of the same thing. A lot of us have worked hard and long to get in the shape were in now. If you have the funds and can eliminate only the fat-go for it.

tGunslinger · May 16, 2006, 1:59am

I’ve noticed that people tend to store fat in two distinct patterns.

1.) Layered Fat – People store fat in a thin, evenly spread layer over their entire bodies. Dave Gulledge’s “before” pic in the “Powerlifters are Fatties” thread is a good example of this. These people can hold relatively high BF%'s and still look okay. These are the people who can’t seem to understand that we can still have love handles even though our BF% is relatively low.

2.) LIFO Fat – “Last In First Out” storage. These people’s bodies store fat in problem areas, and these problem areas simply will not go away until the person has extremely low BF%. A person can be relatively lean, yet not look it because of noticeable pockets of fat hanging around their bodies. People with LIFO fat will have love handles unless they are really, really lean.

Frankly, I don’t see the problem with getting lipo to suck out the love handles. All you’re doing is using modern medicine to slightly alter and speed up the cutting process. Is it really that different from using AAS to slightly alter and speed up the muscle building process? I don’t think so. And is it really so awful for some of us to wish we could lose our love handles at a reasonable BF%? They really do seem to undermine our progress, and cutting down to 7% just to rid ourselves of them isn’t realistic.

to jsbrook “I’ve never seen anyone with love handles at 7% BF”: Uh, thanks. I’ll file this under “Blue, Sky is.”

doogie · May 16, 2006, 4:48am

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:

Frankly, I don’t see the problem with getting lipo to suck out the love handles. All you’re doing is using modern medicine to slightly alter and speed up the cutting process. Is it really that different from using AAS to slightly alter and speed up the muscle building process? I don’t think so. And is it really so awful for some of us to wish we could lose our love handles at a reasonable BF%? They really do seem to undermine our progress, and cutting down to 7% just to rid ourselves of them isn’t realistic.
[/quote]

I’m definitely familiar with “LIFO”. I compounded a family history of Type II diabetes and a predisposition to storing fat around my gut with years of alcohol abuse that ultimately packed in so much visceral fat that I couldn’t even suck in my gut 1/4". Having a protruding gut that is rock hard topped off with jiggly “love handles” is not a great look. It was a long road back from disgusting land, but ever step was worth it. The idea of getting lipo sickens me.

I’ve never used AAS, but I don’t really think the comparison to getting lipo is accurate. To get results from AAS still requires a certain level of discipline and hard work (and even education). Getting lipo is nothing like that. All it takes is a credit card and a lack of self-respect.

You ask, “is it really so awful for some of us to wish we could lose our love handles at a reasonable BF%?”

Is it really so awful for some of us to deceive people into believing we have achieved something we haven’t?

I can think of several things to compare getting lipo to that better reflect it’s nature.

It’s the spiritual equivalent of buying your own trophies to put in a display case in your living room, or running up hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt in order to buy bright shiny things so others will think you are more successful than you are.

Sure you could do those things, but I wouldn’t consider you a man if you did.
Lipo just reeks of effeminate narcissism and dishonesty.

This is definitely a time to stop and try to form a picture in your mind:

One of those heroes who stormed the beach at Normandy (maybe he was your grandfather) coming home, looking in the mirror, squeezing his love handles, sighing, asking his wife if he looks fat, and then deciding to get lipo.

Of course, in the end it is just personal choice. To me, I respect lifting more than that. It holds much more meaning to me than just how I look. I take genuine pride in every ounce I’m able to add to the bar and every centimeter I’m able to add to my arm. Sure I want to look good, but I wouldn’t get calf-implants or inject synthol in my biceps to achieve it. Every time someone commented on them it would be a stab in my chest. But that’s just me.

http://www.nyplasticsurg.com/out.html

MickeyG · May 16, 2006, 2:11pm

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
In response to doogie

2.) LIFO Fat – “Last In First Out” storage. These people’s bodies store fat in problem areas, and these problem areas simply will not go away until the person has extremely low BF%. A person can be relatively lean, yet not look it because of noticeable pockets of fat hanging around their bodies. People with LIFO fat will have love handles unless they are really, really lean. [/quote]

And this is the scenario where I think the whole biosignature modulation regional fat pattern storage might have validity (in a nutshell, hormonal imbalances are what cause site specific stubborn fat deposits).

Pec & Tri - androgen imbalance
Upper hips, lower back, obliques & upper lat - insulin resistance/carb intolerance
Lower lat/serratus - thyroid imbalance
Abdominal - cortisol imbalance
Quads/hams - high estrogen

You can likely figure out diet tweaks, and both OTC and prescription supplements that would aid in each particular condition.

MickeyG · May 16, 2006, 6:27pm

One other thing worth mentioning…stimulants (such as ephedra, caffeine, clen) are known to aggravate insulin resistance. For overall bodyfat loss they’re useful, but for stubborn oblique and lower back fat they might actually be a deterrent.

kung_fu_king · May 17, 2006, 3:00pm

[quote]MickeyG wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
In response to doogie

2.) LIFO Fat – “Last In First Out” storage. These people’s bodies store fat in problem areas, and these problem areas simply will not go away until the person has extremely low BF%. A person can be relatively lean, yet not look it because of noticeable pockets of fat hanging around their bodies. People with LIFO fat will have love handles unless they are really, really lean.

And this is the scenario where I think the whole biosignature modulation regional fat pattern storage might have validity (in a nutshell, hormonal imbalances are what cause site specific stubborn fat deposits).

Pec & Tri - androgen imbalance
Upper hips, lower back, obliques & upper lat - insulin resistance/carb intolerance
Lower lat/serratus - thyroid imbalance
Abdominal - cortisol imbalance
Quads/hams - high estrogen

You can likely figure out diet tweaks, and both OTC and prescription supplements that would aid in each particular condition.

[/quote]

Nice info. Do you have a reference for where you got this info from?

Does anyone have a reference for Poliquin’s study on insulin resistance?

MickeyG · May 17, 2006, 3:38pm

Bjorntorp P, Rosmond R.
Department of Heart and Lung Diseases, University of Goteborg, Sahlgren’s
Hospital, Sweden.

You can find a number of papers relating to these studies by the above authors. I think Poliquin probably based his theories on research and writings of the above and a few others. You can also Google ‘biosignature modulation’ to see some of Poliquin (and others) ideas.

vroom · May 17, 2006, 7:17pm

According to the product thread it may be worth trying the new HOT-ROX Extreme…

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1066793

Dandalex · May 17, 2006, 9:56pm

I understand the point of view of people who feel that training is a goal in itself and the activities that require no work to achieve results are decietful.

I however do not agree with this line of thought as I really don’t care by which means I accomplish my goal, unless my goal had be to be able to accomplish X without resorting to any ‘‘outside’’ help.

Hell, I’ve taken and still take stuff like Carbolin 19, HOT-ROX and remember fondly the Golden Age of MAG-10 and wouldn’t mind taking DNP if it weren’t so illegal and dangerous to achieve my goals of leaness as the goal for me is leanesss, not leaness achieved without help.

Surgery sounds drastic, be cause it is invasive, but what about the Ultrashape device for example, people used to rumb Yombine HCl creams for topical fatloss or inject components in the fat tissue to get fat spot reduction (LipodissolveTM), but now how bat is it to have your abdomen rubbed for 15 minutes with a machine and get out of there losing about 1.5 inch during the comming weeks.

And here you have a proceedure that can be repeated every month, removing about 500 ccs of fat cells to achieve wath many poster boys have achieves simply through genetics, flat absk and low subcutaneous fat deposits.

Hell if I owned one of these, I’d rumb myself every 4 weeks like clock work all the will cutting.

Some people need to realize that their values and ideals are hardly incompressible for some other individuals.

For example, talking to me about keeping my honnor when I’m being insulted doesn’t ring a bell with me, it means nothing to me. I am not a samourai. For a friend of mind from France that was a hard thing to understand,You say f’'ck you Mother, I’ll say fuck my mother.

People have different views and personnaly cannot see how somebody who looks good because of surgery is a bad thing. And hard work must be credited, but the question is what’s the point, most people what the results, not the journey.

THe line is going to be blurred to the extend that we won’t see aline amymore. Topical machines that make you loose fat, Intramuscular injection of gene-altering compounds…the mice they tried it on had awesome legs.

An as more inexepensive and safe these procedures become, the rest of us guys will still be using HRextrem, SC Alpha Male, and ZMA to improve but the available, easy and silver bullet threatments will be used.

Not a rabbling, but people who want these procedures generally ming ‘‘cheating’’ on the whole training-diet complex, its just something to ad on to to healp reache the ultimage goal of looking good Neekid.

As a appart? a was doing some pre-clerschip retoations in a dermation clinic at the Hospital and the Doc there now uses the Ultrashape manchine and said that he had good results with the procedures, slowy taking inches of people.

The price is still a little to high, but the future is coming.

AlexH.

doogie · May 17, 2006, 11:12pm

[quote]Dandalex wrote:
I understand the point of view of people who feel that training is a goal in itself and the activities that require no work to achieve results are decietful.

I however do not agree with this line of thought as I really don’t care by which means I accomplish my goal, unless my goal had be to be able to accomplish X without resorting to any ‘‘outside’’ help.
[/quote]

I’m not aiming my response at you, but more at some of the statements that have been made rationalizing lipo on this thread.

Everyone’s goals are their own.

It’s fine if your goals do not inherently involve weightlifting/dieting/working out, but rationalizing getting liposuction has no place on a weightlifting forum. It is wrong to compare it to using AAS (which still requires work and education), and it is wrong to pretend you’ve eaten and trained smart for 15 years and still just can’t lose those love handles.

If your goals have nothing to do with weightlifting, don’t come to a weightlifting thread to rationalize getting lipo. That’s just as dumb as going to a “natural bodybuilder” forum and starting trying to rationalize your use of steroids or going to the AA website and trying to rationalize drinking once a week.

[quote]
Hell, I’ve taken and still take stuff like Carbolin 19, HOT-ROX and remember fondly the Golden Age of MAG-10 and wouldn’t mind taking DNP if it weren’t so illegal and dangerous to achieve my goals of leaness as the goal for me is leanesss, not leaness achieved without help.[/quote]

That’s fine. Talk about lipo on Skinnyboz.com

[quote]
Surgery sounds drastic, be cause it is invasive, but what about the Ultrashape device for example, people used to rumb Yombine HCl creams for topical fatloss or inject components in the fat tissue to get fat spot reduction (LipodissolveTM), but now how bat is it to have your abdomen rubbed for 15 minutes with a machine and get out of there losing about 1.5 inch during the comming weeks. [/quote]

Nothing is wrong with it, just like their is nothing wrong with getting calf implants or injecting synthol. Just don’t pretend you are doing it because of your bad genetics, and don’t post about it on a weightlifting website. It has nothing to do with lifting.

Again, do what you want. Just don’t rationalize it. Don’t pretend you’ve done everything within your power to lose the love handles without liposuction. Don’t pretend you care about lifting and dieting and hard work and discipline if all that matters to you is not getting giggled at by the girls in the office.

[quote]
People have different views and personnaly cannot see how somebody who looks good because of surgery is a bad thing. And hard work must be credited, but the question is what’s the point, most people what the results, not the journey.[/quote]

Most people are lazy douchebags. If you don’t mind being one of them, nothing is wrong with that. Just don’t pretend like you DO care about the journey (by posting here) when all you care about is the results.

I’m going to have to ask for a translation here.

vroom · May 18, 2006, 12:10am

Doogie,

I think you might be a little out on the extreme end of this.

What about people taking AAS in order to get extra levels of musculature and leanness?

People employ all kinds of strategies and only a very few of the top examples of physiques that many aspire to are actually natural.

I agree this isn’t a dieting and leanness site, but busting ass, putting on fifty pounds of muscle and then looking like crap without dieting enough to take it back off isn’t something that people have to accept anymore.

Nobody has to like it if someone else is willing to make choices that they personally wouldn’t.

I don’t however see extreme measures of removing fat the same as I see extreme measures of gaining muscle or appearing to have gained muscle. By that I mean cheating on the size seems worse than cheating on revealing what you have… that said I’d do AAS but not synthol or implants.

doogie · May 18, 2006, 3:39am

[quote]vroom wrote:
Doogie,

I think you might be a little out on the extreme end of this.

What about people taking AAS in order to get extra levels of musculature and leanness?

People employ all kinds of strategies and only a very few of the top examples of physiques that many aspire to are actually natural.
[/quote]

I already addressed that at least twice. Getting great results from AAS still requires effort and some education. You can’t just take AAS, not workout, and achieve “extra levels of musculature and leanness.” You can’t compare that to liposuction.

Liposuction doesn’t require you to lift, it doesn’t require dedication or sacrifice. I just takes a credit card–just like synthol and calf implants. None of the three has any place on this site.

[quote]
I agree this isn’t a dieting and leanness site, but busting ass, putting on fifty pounds of muscle and then looking like crap without dieting enough to take it back off isn’t something that people have to accept anymore.[/quote]

I don’t really get your point. I’m not Prof. X scolding people for wanting to be skinny and look pretty. I don’t give a crap what other peoples’ goals are.

If their goals are to get lean, fine. If they want to post about their starvation diet and retarded workouts, fine. This is a weightlifting forum, though. As long as the topic somehow involves using weightlifting/dieting to achieve your goals, I don’t care. My issue is that liposuction does not involve dieting or exercise any more than gastric bypass does.

People never had to accept “busting ass, putting on fifty pounds of muscle and then looking like crap without dieting enough to take it back off.” If you don’t have the discipline to do a clean bulk, fine. Just don’t pretend like you HAD to put on a ton of fat and look like crap. Don’t come here acting like your genetics stuffed the McDonald’s down your lazy throat.

[quote]
Nobody has to like it if someone else is willing to make choices that they personally wouldn’t.[/quote]

I agree. Just like Prof. X doesn’t have to like the 140lbs kids cutting, I don’t have to like people who come to a weightlifting site and rationalize liposuction.

It disrespects the hard work and effort of the people who DO care about the journey. Post it on skinnyboyz.com, but not here.

I wouldn’t go on a site about training for marathons and try to rationalize taking a cab in the NY City Marathon.

I wouldn’t explain about how I just care about getting 26 miles from point A to point B.

I wouldn’t try to justify it by saying lots of people don’t care about how they get there, they just want to get there.

I wouldn’t say I worked real hard for 15 years and still couldn’t run 26 miles (must be because of my hormones).

I wouldn’t tell the other posters that with all the modern advancements, soon people will be able to travel 26 miles in just a few minutes.

For the most part all of those statements are true. Yet while the other posters on the forum and I share a common goal (traveling 26 miles), it would be disrespectful to go there, ask for their opinions on cabbing the race, and then try to justify my reasons taking the cab. It’s a running site, not a travel 26 miles however you want site.

[quote]
I don’t however see extreme measures of removing fat the same as I see extreme measures of gaining muscle or appearing to have gained muscle. By that I mean cheating on the size seems worse than cheating on revealing what you have… that said I’d do AAS but not synthol or implants.[/quote]

Why not? They’re both routes taken by those who want an easy way. Neither one requires any work. If anything, you’d need to put in more effort not to look totally retarded before getting the fake calfs or synthol injections than you would before the lipo. You can’t just stick big ass calfs or 20 inch arms on a skinny guy without it being totally obvious and goofy looking. In contrast, fat ass ladies all over America get lipo everyday without once stepping into a gym or sticking to a diet, and come out looking 1000% better.

(Pics that follow are not safe for work)

I’m sure this cow worked her ass off before finally deciding to get lipo:

This
http://www.smartplasticsurgery.com/boston/liposuctionbefore1.jpg
to this
http://www.smartplasticsurgery.com/boston/liposuctionafter1.jpg

This elephant, also:

This
http://smartplasticsurgery.com/plastic_surgeons/lipo_before1a.jpg
to this
http://smartplasticsurgery.com/plastic_surgeons/lipo_after1a.jpg

I’m sure both of them have been eating and training smart for 15 years. I’m sure if you asked this guy, he’d tell you he busts his ass in the gym 7 days a week:

http://smartplasticsurgery.com/images/metznerlipobefore3.jpg
to this
http://smartplasticsurgery.com/images/metznerlipoafter3.jpg

In summary, if you don’t give a crap about weightlifting or dieting and the things you learn about yourself while struggling under the bar or drinking you millionth chocolate-fucking-shake, fine. If all that you care about is looking pretty for the girls in your office, fine. Just don’t come here and rationalize it. Admit you don’t have the discipline to lose the fat, or post elsewhere about it. This forum is about lifting/dieting.

T_Ham · May 18, 2006, 4:22am

Are you then saying, that after at least 5 years of busting ass in the gym and nutritonally and with suplements (acual busting ass, not just perceived busting ass) that lypo is still not justified?

I don’t think many people on these boards would consider lypo before a solid and concerted effort to avoid it.

Lonnie123 · May 18, 2006, 5:15am

Well… I’m convinced. Thanks to Doogie I will now make damn sure I put in the necessary work. It CAN be done and I WILL do it.

doogie · May 18, 2006, 5:30am

[quote]Nomancer wrote:
Are you then saying, that after at least 5 years of busting ass in the gym and nutritonally and with suplements (acual busting ass, not just perceived busting ass) that lypo is still not justified?

I don’t think many people on these boards would consider lypo before a solid and concerted effort to avoid it.[/quote]

It doesn’t need justification. That’s what I’m saying. If you want it, do it.

What I’m against is mixing your lack of self-discipline and determination into the weightlifting/dieting discussions.

Don’t delude yourself into believing that getting your fat sucked out has anything to do with a lifting forum.

Don’t come here and pretend you have anything in common with people like these:

http://www.naturalphysiques.com/gallery/jeremytransform
http://www.naturalphysiques.com/gallery/Success?page=1
www.gettinglean.com/trans.htm

For fucks sake, even Oprah has enough self-respect to want to earn it on her own. She sure as hell could afford lipo.

“Busting ass” is always going to be relative. It’s a meaningless term. “Busting ass” for 5 years in a manner that doesn’t get you consistently closer to your goals is stupid, but it doesn’t mean your genetics won’t let you lose the love handles and that lipo is the answer. That’s bullshit. It just means you aren’t doing something right. Probably a lot of things.

The type of whiney, spineless person who needs the approval of annonymous people on the internet is most likely not the type of person who has trained and dieted smartly for even a month. Especially when the only description they have given of their diet and training is to call it smart.

I don’t CARE one way or the other if someone wants to get lipo, but don’t come here trying to justify it.

slt · May 18, 2006, 7:12am

I believe Oprah also encourages this non-invasive procedure.

Dandalex · May 18, 2006, 9:33am

[quote]doogie wrote:
Dandalex wrote:
I understand the point of view of people who feel that training is a goal in itself and the activities that require no work to achieve results are decietful.