Surprised that oly guys are so opposed to bands. I’d think you’d love them to accommodate resistance a bit in the second pull. I couldn’t imagine using bands on a snatch/clean/jerk, as the whole point of the movements is that the bar becomes weightless, though on pulls and deadlifts I’d think they could be quite useful. On squats I wouldn’t see any reason for them… The overloaded eccentrics alone would ruin the average person, and at the frequency you guys squat it could become counterproductive.
That being said, overspeed eccentrics could help the ‘bounce’ out of the hole. Though bands would be a little too aggressive, chains could be a possible happy medium. On the wide stance, he is of the opinion that wide builds close, there’s a video he did on it where he states that his guys out-squat olympic lifters narrow, while only training wide. Thanks for your time and consideration.
[quote]DallasV wrote:
On the wide stance, he is of the opinion that wide builds close, there’s a video he did on it where he states that his guys out-squat olympic lifters narrow, while only training wide.
[/quote]
Yeah I don’t think so either. xD But that’s what he said. His lifters can barley hit depth period.[/quote]
That is true. olympic flexibility means the bar goes at least a good 6 inches farther than the “deep squats” he counts. different standards. I think bands ruin the timing of the pull–that is a reason many are against them: timing is such a big deal and so finicky that ingraining the wrong timing with accomodating resistance is a very real possibility. that’s my 2 cents anyway. for non competitive lifters just doing pulls for hypertrophy and strength they may have some utility, depending on how you set them up. maybe. I know one of the guys on elitefts wss experimenting woth them.
Yeah I don’t think so either. xD But that’s what he said. His lifters can barley hit depth period.[/quote]
That is true. olympic flexibility means the bar goes at least a good 6 inches farther than the “deep squats” he counts. different standards. I think bands ruin the timing of the pull–that is a reason many are against them: timing is such a big deal and so finicky that ingraining the wrong timing with accomodating resistance is a very real possibility. that’s my 2 cents anyway. for non competitive lifters just doing pulls for hypertrophy and strength they may have some utility, depending on how you set them up. maybe. I know one of the guys on elitefts wss experimenting woth them.[/quote]
I think that was Travis Mash a few years back when he was training at the Olympic compound in Colorado. Since then I heard he got into bobsledding, then messed (broke??) his back in a kayaking accident. I could have my stories mixed up here though.
I’ve read Simmons reference his success with football players, specifically those training for the combine… Who are these players? I’ve never actually seen any names or accolades. I know he’s had success with the super geared up feds, but his claims about athletes and 40 times are total bullshit. He’s a salesman, plain and simple.
Yeah I don’t think so either. xD But that’s what he said. His lifters can barley hit depth period.[/quote]
That is true. olympic flexibility means the bar goes at least a good 6 inches farther than the “deep squats” he counts. different standards. I think bands ruin the timing of the pull–that is a reason many are against them: timing is such a big deal and so finicky that ingraining the wrong timing with accomodating resistance is a very real possibility. that’s my 2 cents anyway. for non competitive lifters just doing pulls for hypertrophy and strength they may have some utility, depending on how you set them up. maybe. I know one of the guys on elitefts wss experimenting woth them.[/quote]
That’s true! I’d never even thought of that. I must admit I’m used to simpler movements and moving the bar as fast as possible, but you’re 100% right. My lack of experience with the classical lifts is showing a little more than i’d like. But hey, for non-specific strength I don’t think there’s anything better than accommodating resistance. I just feel it’s more evenly distributed stress, uneven loading of course, but you’re working just as hard at the bottom as you are at the top, actual resistance notwithstanding. Thank you for your feedback.
Have talked to Louie in the past over the phone. Olympic weightlifting takes great coordination and flexibility. Charniga has stated that having a big squat well in excess of the C&J does not seem to help the lifts. If the ratios are correct (Squat to C&J) you would assume teaching these powerlifters to C&J and Snatch world records would be not “easy” but doable. But that’s not how it’s worked out.
Powerlifters who have converted to Oly lifting have a heck of a time with the coordination and flexibility that the Oly lifts demand. At least the ones that have tried to so far. I would like to see a lifter from Louie’s club attempt to let us say in a 1 year period see what he can do with the Oly lifts. They certainly have the jumping ability and absolute strength levels to give it a go.
Louie has said that box squatting is better for the front squat than front squatting. Bret Contreras(Glute guy) did do a study on Box squats and stated that they improve RFD (rate of force development) very well. Much more than expected.
I think the missing link here with these powerlifters converting to Olympic lifters is speed at the third pull. Look at most decent American Olympic weightlifters. A handful of them are fast under the bar, but most don’t get under it extremely quick. Compare it to weightlifters from other nations, especially the medalists. Illyin (I’m never sure if I’m spelling the name right) is under the bar in a split second and it looks as if he could get under anything he pulls to his navel. To be competitive you have to have the speed and flexibility to get under a bar you only pull to waist-navel height. It takes a great deal of time to get that quick.
[quote]amayakyrol wrote:
I think the missing link here with these powerlifters converting to Olympic lifters is speed at the third pull. Look at most decent American Olympic weightlifters. A handful of them are fast under the bar, but most don’t get under it extremely quick. Compare it to weightlifters from other nations, especially the medalists. Illyin (I’m never sure if I’m spelling the name right) is under the bar in a split second and it looks as if he could get under anything he pulls to his navel. To be competitive you have to have the speed and flexibility to get under a bar you only pull to waist-navel height. It takes a great deal of time to get that quick.[/quote]
I’d suggest watching Mike Szela, Ian Wilson, even Caine Wilkes. They are all very fast. And you can’t compare decent American lifters to the 1 of a kind lifters like Ilin (or Ilyin) or Dimas or Suleymanoglu. Of course they’re slower.
Ian Wilson is one of the very few that are fast. That’s not really the point though. The point is a powerlifter just now transitioning into Olympic lifting is going to be too slow. I’m sure someone DLing 900 could clean pull somewhere around 225-250kg to navel height, but they sure as hell aren’t getting under it without years of training.
Then look at James Tatum. That guy is fearless when getting under weights. He was a pretty good powerlifter from what I remember.And he’s only been lifting a few years. Or Shane Hamman, or Travis Mash.
[quote]amayakyrol wrote:
I’m sure someone DLing 900 could clean pull somewhere around 225-250kg to navel height, but they sure as hell aren’t getting under it without years of training.[/quote]
Yeah, but getting lots of bar height is the easy part, the hard part is putting the bar in a spot that allows you to quickly and efficiently get underneath it.
[quote]amayakyrol wrote:
I’m sure someone DLing 900 could clean pull somewhere around 225-250kg to navel height, but they sure as hell aren’t getting under it without years of training.[/quote]
Yeah, but getting lots of bar height is the easy part, the hard part is putting the bar in a spot that allows you to quickly and efficiently get underneath it.[/quote]
Exactly. A power clean at say a 120 degree angle is a great measurement of power. Once you go into full cleans technique becomes absolutely critical.
There are plenty of American lifters as powerful as the best Olympic lifters, but their technique is years apart.
I find it interesting that it always seems to be non-Olympic lifting coaches that have something to say about how Oly lifters can improve their sport. The reverse doesn’t seem to be true, nor do you seem to find it in other sports - don’t hear of too many football coaches telling baseball players how to train, I mean both sports play on a field and use a ball that one guy throws. Right similarity ends there. It’s like assuming that a guy that can hit tons of home runs should also be great at golf or cricket, for that matter.
Olympic lifting is (to quote I forgot who) a 300lb golf swing. That to me is the most pithy description of our sport I’ve ever heard and it’s how I describe it people who are curious about Oly.
It’d probably help things if we changed the name from Olympic lifting to Olympic Yeilding or something. As others have noted it’s about getting under the bar, more than lifting it. I think I read of Rip writing someting about if you want to clean more then just raise your deadlift. Well when I started Oly I could barely clean 50% of deadlift. I had the strength, I didn’t have the technique. It’s technique that allows some to clean a higher and higher % of their deadlift or for that matter clean and jerk as much or more than they front squat.
You can’t ONLY be strong in Oly. Another thing I think people forget about this sport is we are limited by time (PL is not). It’s why squatting 900lbs doesn’t mean you’re going to clean and jerk almost 700 (assuming the 900lb squat is Oly style). It’s becasue there isn’t enough time for the nervous system to realize that strength potential. The Russian sports scientist wrote about this back in the 70’s (read about it in a Charniga article).
In PL the only thing limiting you ultimately is how strong you can get and how long you can fight (grind) on the lift to make it.
In Oly, eventually you’re fighting time. If we could grind up Snatches & Cleans & Jerks then having 1000lb squat or 1000lb pull, and JUST getting stronger well then it’d be a different ball game.
Simmons does well for his own brand of what looks like powerlifting. It’s been clear for a long time that when he talks about weightlifting he just doesn’t have a clue.
[quote]Howard Roark wrote:
I find it interesting that it always seems to be non-Olympic lifting coaches that have something to say about how Oly lifters can improve their sport. The reverse doesn’t seem to be true, nor do you seem to find it in other sports - don’t hear of too many football coaches telling baseball players how to train[/quote]
Totally false…I’ve seen coaches from every sport help others in areas there sports specialize in. A midlevel baseball pitching coach has, had great success using helping football qb’s. Plenty of wide receivers have learned hand eye coordination from baseball. Baseball players have learned lateral quickness from Tennis players. Oly coaches are some of the biggest culprits to the point it became a fad in the last decade.
Experimenting, learning from others are all part of growing.
Louie is the man when it comes to powerlifting. But when it comes to weightlifting, he needs to leave it to the weightlifters. Bands alter the mechanics of the lift too much. And besides, thats fuckin dangerous. Its essentially a giant slingshot
On the wide stance, he is of the opinion that wide builds close, there’s a video he did on it where he states that his guys out-squat olympic lifters narrow, while only training wide. Thanks for your time and consideration.