Losing Size in Biceps?

Training Bodybuilding
61

[quote]MuscleSoup wrote:
Thanks to those who actually cared to give some insight. This is what i do on arm day usually, ive tried a few different ones but this is seems to really give me a decent pump.

I do standing ADB curls 4x6 45 lbs
standing BB curls 4x6 95 lbs
Incline curls 4x6 35 lbs
HAmmer curls 4x6 40lbs

[/quote]

try working in a higher rep range, like 10-12. Also don’t do all of what you wrote above in one workout, pick 2 lifts, then go from there. And eat alot more, especially since you’ve just begun doing squats. Oh, and you’d be amazed how much weight you can gain “naturally” by just eating alot. try it.

62

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Der Candy wrote:
There comes a point when you stop giving a shit about textbook form, and learn how to cheat ‘properly’ and pound the shit out of your muscles with those last few loose reps that you would not be able to do otherwise.

Some people act like extreme technical precision is what builds huge cannons. This is not an operation table, and the emphasis should be on making sure you are blasting your chosen muscles to oblivion. Safety shouldn’t even be an issue because I think after enough experience you know when to end a set and when the amount of cheating has reached ‘diminishing returns’ as far as stimulation and safety are concerned.

I never lock out my legs on squats (or db presses for that matter). I am sure most people would consider that a form of cheating especially with the sort of rhythm and ‘momentum’ you get going when you are deep into the set. However it feels the best this way and I feel far more in the right places due to this ‘cheating’.

Agreed. I don’t lock out when doing chest pressing movements. I also count every rep. If it didn’t work, my chest wouldn’t be this big without a major injury up to this point (knocking on wood).

Unless this is the beginner’s forum though, I don’t get why we have to even explain this shit over and over. There is a reason most of the biggest and strongest bodybuilders on the fucking planet also get accused of having loose form. If absolute perfect forum built muscles that big and strong, everyone would be training that way.[/quote]

It all goes back to experience. Beginners won’t get this. If, they even get to the point that they’ve been lifting for 5 or more years straight, they will figure this out, like we did.

63

[quote]matsm21 wrote:
MuscleSoup wrote:
Thanks to those who actually cared to give some insight. This is what i do on arm day usually, ive tried a few different ones but this is seems to really give me a decent pump.

I do standing ADB curls 4x6 45 lbs
standing BB curls 4x6 95 lbs
Incline curls 4x6 35 lbs
HAmmer curls 4x6 40lbs

try working in a higher rep range, like 10-12. Also don’t do all of what you wrote above in one workout, pick 2 lifts, then go from there. And eat alot more, especially since you’ve just begun doing squats. Oh, and you’d be amazed how much weight you can gain “naturally” by just eating alot. try it.
[/quote]

Thanks for your advice man, but what makes you think a higher rep range would work better? Also, why only the 2 lifts; it seems after the first two workouts my arms are just starting to get pumped. I know more isn’t always better, but that burn usually starts coming about halfway through my workout.

64

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Unless this is the beginner’s forum though, I don’t get why we have to even explain this shit over and over. [/quote]

This also poses the problem that if someone on here asks for help on some specific issue, you can’t just answer his question, that alone would not help at all because:

He usually doesn’t even have his diet etc down, all the basics… What matters in bodybuilding and so on. No use telling him how to get around plateaus when he doesn’t eat enough in the first place?

On a regular bb forum, bodybuilders post. Here we have weekend warriors who are mostly beginners. Nothing wrong with being a beginner or someone who doesn’t take this overly serious, but then why post in a bb forum (or worse, why give out advice on a bb forum if you have had little success/don’t care about/etc bodybuilding) ?

I’d love to help more people out, but it just takes too much time to explain the basics over and over again…

A little something to fix that is in the works… Takes time, though.

65

When I said “cheating like hell” I meant doing supinated-grip cleans with no negative, and calling them curls. It’s basic physics that you’re going to have to lean back once you get to a certain weight, or you’ll fall on your face. Likewise, not locking out a lift is only cheating if you’re in a competition that defines it that way.

I still maintain that if you curl 150lbs strict today, and cheat curl 160lbs two weeks from now, you haven’t necessarily progressed. But if you THINK you progressed, you won’t change what you’re doing.

And to the OP: Yes, you need to work in a higher rep range to see better gains in size.

66

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
When I said “cheating like hell” I meant doing supinated-grip cleans with no negative, and calling them curls. It’s basic physics that you’re going to have to lean back once you get to a certain weight, or you’ll fall on your face. Likewise, not locking out a lift is only cheating if you’re in a competition that defines it that way.

I still maintain that if you curl 150lbs strict today, and cheat curl 160lbs two weeks from now, you haven’t necessarily progressed. But if you THINK you progressed, you won’t change what you’re doing.

And to the OP: Yes, you need to work in a higher rep range to see better gains in size.
[/quote]

Why is that i always read that the best way to size gains are in the 4-8 range? I swear ive read that time and time again.

67

I can only hypothesize it is because those are the ranges usually associated with recruiting and developing more motor units which in turn allow you to lift heavier weights in the higher hypertrophy ranges at a later time therefore building more muscle. That’s my indirect guess anyway as to why that is thrown around a lot.

68

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
For the record, why is this board filled with so many beginners who won’t stay in the beginner forum?

Dunno… I actually have to start reading that section and see what they tell people there…

I’m just tired of the discussions here centering around someone experienced saying something like, “there’s nothing wrong with some cheating”…and then getting hammered by 15 newbies who have 14" arms as they all tell you that strict form is essential in their 20lbs dumbbell curls.

The debates never range above any of that bullshit yet everyone here seems to think they are so advanced that they need some hyper-technical over-analyzed super program made for Olympic gymnastics.[/quote]

Ignorant,just ignorant.

69

[quote]slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
For the record, why is this board filled with so many beginners who won’t stay in the beginner forum?

Dunno… I actually have to start reading that section and see what they tell people there…

I’m just tired of the discussions here centering around someone experienced saying something like, “there’s nothing wrong with some cheating”…and then getting hammered by 15 newbies who have 14" arms as they all tell you that strict form is essential in their 20lbs dumbbell curls.

The debates never range above any of that bullshit yet everyone here seems to think they are so advanced that they need some hyper-technical over-analyzed super program made for Olympic gymnastics.

Ignorant,just ignorant.[/quote]

Your one liners need work. I dare you to expand on your point of view with anything that indicates more than two brain cells were used in the process.

70

[quote]Professor X wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
For the record, why is this board filled with so many beginners who won’t stay in the beginner forum?

Dunno… I actually have to start reading that section and see what they tell people there…

I’m just tired of the discussions here centering around someone experienced saying something like, “there’s nothing wrong with some cheating”…and then getting hammered by 15 newbies who have 14" arms as they all tell you that strict form is essential in their 20lbs dumbbell curls.

The debates never range above any of that bullshit yet everyone here seems to think they are so advanced that they need some hyper-technical over-analyzed super program made for Olympic gymnastics.

Ignorant,just ignorant.

Your one liners need work. I dare you to expand on your point of view with anything that indicates more than two brain cells were used in the process.[/quote]

Simple. A trainee doesn’t need to ever cheat to get optimal growth. Practicing stellar form has never held back anyone’s gains. Improper technique better known as cheating is more than likely the root cause of most injuries. A doctor of sports medicine would never say to a patient “get in the gym and do some cheat curls” or “arch you back on the bench”. The only exception to this would be juicees. So cheat away.

71

[quote]slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
For the record, why is this board filled with so many beginners who won’t stay in the beginner forum?

Dunno… I actually have to start reading that section and see what they tell people there…

I’m just tired of the discussions here centering around someone experienced saying something like, “there’s nothing wrong with some cheating”…and then getting hammered by 15 newbies who have 14" arms as they all tell you that strict form is essential in their 20lbs dumbbell curls.

The debates never range above any of that bullshit yet everyone here seems to think they are so advanced that they need some hyper-technical over-analyzed super program made for Olympic gymnastics.

Ignorant,just ignorant.

Your one liners need work. I dare you to expand on your point of view with anything that indicates more than two brain cells were used in the process.

Simple. A trainee doesn’t need to ever cheat to get optimal growth. Practicing stellar form has never held back anyone’s gains. Improper technique better known as cheating is more than likely the root cause of most injuries. A doctor of sports medicine would never say to a patient “get in the gym and do some cheat curls” or “arch you back on the bench”. The only exception to this would be juicees. So cheat away.[/quote]

I am a doctor although not with a specialty in sports medicine. To reach the upper limits of human development, the weight used can often be more important than how perfect the form is. You can’t look at someone with 18+" arms who has had no significant injuries as they gained over 80lbs of body mass and claim they are training wrong.

72

[quote]slimthugger wrote:
Simple. A trainee doesn’t need to ever cheat to get optimal growth. Practicing stellar form has never held back anyone’s gains.[/quote]

Curious. Please post some pics of your development from your 100% adherence to strict form.

73

[quote]slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
For the record, why is this board filled with so many beginners who won’t stay in the beginner forum?

Dunno… I actually have to start reading that section and see what they tell people there…

I’m just tired of the discussions here centering around someone experienced saying something like, “there’s nothing wrong with some cheating”…and then getting hammered by 15 newbies who have 14" arms as they all tell you that strict form is essential in their 20lbs dumbbell curls.

The debates never range above any of that bullshit yet everyone here seems to think they are so advanced that they need some hyper-technical over-analyzed super program made for Olympic gymnastics.

Ignorant,just ignorant.

Your one liners need work. I dare you to expand on your point of view with anything that indicates more than two brain cells were used in the process.

Simple. A trainee doesn’t need to ever cheat to get optimal growth. Practicing stellar form has never held back anyone’s gains. Improper technique better known as cheating is more than likely the root cause of most injuries. A doctor of sports medicine would never say to a patient “get in the gym and do some cheat curls” or “arch you back on the bench”. The only exception to this would be juicees. So cheat away.[/quote]

I have never used steroids, but holy crap am I sick of people pointing fingers and saying ‘it doesn’t count because he’s using AAS!’. This is an intellectually bankrupt argument, and in no way furthers the discussion at hand. Second, cheat curls are frequently recommended by Olympic lifters and coaches I have known and whose work I have read. Olympic lifters are athletes who are arguably the most functional, for those of you that like to throw that word around. Secondly, arching your back on the bench is not cheating, it is proper form. Speaking as a doctor (although like X not an MD), I’ll further say that if I had to choose between trusting a doctor of sports medicine, or an experienced coach/big strong fucker, I’ll choose the later every time.

74

[quote]Professor X wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
For the record, why is this board filled with so many beginners who won’t stay in the beginner forum?

Dunno… I actually have to start reading that section and see what they tell people there…

I’m just tired of the discussions here centering around someone experienced saying something like, “there’s nothing wrong with some cheating”…and then getting hammered by 15 newbies who have 14" arms as they all tell you that strict form is essential in their 20lbs dumbbell curls.

The debates never range above any of that bullshit yet everyone here seems to think they are so advanced that they need some hyper-technical over-analyzed super program made for Olympic gymnastics.

Ignorant,just ignorant.

Your one liners need work. I dare you to expand on your point of view with anything that indicates more than two brain cells were used in the process.

Simple. A trainee doesn’t need to ever cheat to get optimal growth. Practicing stellar form has never held back anyone’s gains. Improper technique better known as cheating is more than likely the root cause of most injuries. A doctor of sports medicine would never say to a patient “get in the gym and do some cheat curls” or “arch you back on the bench”. The only exception to this would be juicees. So cheat away.

I am a doctor although not with a specialty in sports medicine. To reach the upper limits of human development, the weight used can often be more important than how perfect the form is. You can’t look at someone with 18+" arms who has had no significant injuries as they gained over 100lbs and claim they are training wrong.[/quote]

Doc. The simple fact remains. Cheating IS NOT essential to reach maximal growth. Can some do it and get by? Yes, under aforementioned circumstances. Again, a natural trainee with lacking gains can NEVER say “my arms aren’t big because I don’t cheat enough”. If that was the case every bonehead in my gym would be in the Mr. Olympia because just about all of the lifters there cheat. Steller physiques are built with steller form. Off topic-- I wouldn’t want a doctor operating on me if I KNEW he cheating his way through med school. Good grief charlie brown!

75

[quote]slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
For the record, why is this board filled with so many beginners who won’t stay in the beginner forum?

Dunno… I actually have to start reading that section and see what they tell people there…

I’m just tired of the discussions here centering around someone experienced saying something like, “there’s nothing wrong with some cheating”…and then getting hammered by 15 newbies who have 14" arms as they all tell you that strict form is essential in their 20lbs dumbbell curls.

The debates never range above any of that bullshit yet everyone here seems to think they are so advanced that they need some hyper-technical over-analyzed super program made for Olympic gymnastics.

Ignorant,just ignorant.

Your one liners need work. I dare you to expand on your point of view with anything that indicates more than two brain cells were used in the process.

Simple. A trainee doesn’t need to ever cheat to get optimal growth. Practicing stellar form has never held back anyone’s gains. Improper technique better known as cheating is more than likely the root cause of most injuries. A doctor of sports medicine would never say to a patient “get in the gym and do some cheat curls” or “arch you back on the bench”. The only exception to this would be juicees. So cheat away.[/quote]

And you have the nerve to call us ignorant?

76

[quote]slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
For the record, why is this board filled with so many beginners who won’t stay in the beginner forum?

Dunno… I actually have to start reading that section and see what they tell people there…

I’m just tired of the discussions here centering around someone experienced saying something like, “there’s nothing wrong with some cheating”…and then getting hammered by 15 newbies who have 14" arms as they all tell you that strict form is essential in their 20lbs dumbbell curls.

The debates never range above any of that bullshit yet everyone here seems to think they are so advanced that they need some hyper-technical over-analyzed super program made for Olympic gymnastics.

Ignorant,just ignorant.

Your one liners need work. I dare you to expand on your point of view with anything that indicates more than two brain cells were used in the process.

Simple. A trainee doesn’t need to ever cheat to get optimal growth. Practicing stellar form has never held back anyone’s gains. Improper technique better known as cheating is more than likely the root cause of most injuries. A doctor of sports medicine would never say to a patient “get in the gym and do some cheat curls” or “arch you back on the bench”. The only exception to this would be juicees. So cheat away.

I am a doctor although not with a specialty in sports medicine. To reach the upper limits of human development, the weight used can often be more important than how perfect the form is. You can’t look at someone with 18+" arms who has had no significant injuries as they gained over 100lbs and claim they are training wrong.

Doc. The simple fact remains. Cheating IS NOT essential to reach maximal growth. Can some do it and get by? Yes, under aforementioned circumstances. Again, a natural trainee with lacking gains can NEVER say “my arms aren’t big because I don’t cheat enough”. If that was the case every bonehead in my gym would be in the Mr. Olympia because just about all of the lifters there cheat. Steller physiques are built with steller form. Off topic-- I wouldn’t want a doctor operating on me if I KNEW he cheating his way through med school. Good grief charlie brown![/quote]

What are you talking about?

First, who is telling people that they aren’t big because they don’t cheat enough?

Does this mean cheating the weight isn’t a great way to make continual progress assuming you understand what good form is and aren’t promoting an injury? Of course not.

77

[quote]slimthugger wrote:
Again, a natural trainee with lacking gains can NEVER say “my arms aren’t big because I don’t cheat enough”. If that was the case every bonehead in my gym would be in the Mr. Olympia because just about all of the lifters there cheat. Steller physiques are built with steller form. [/quote]

Is it therefore safe to assume that your adherence to stellar form has resulted in a stellar physique? Unlike those boneheads in your gym, will your stellar form be taking you to the O next year? Or ever?

78

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Simple. A trainee doesn’t need to ever cheat to get optimal growth. Practicing stellar form has never held back anyone’s gains.

Curious. Please post some pics of your development from your 100% adherence to strict form.
[/quote]

Not necessary to prove my point. Which you quoted above. I’ve taken myself from 165lbs to 225lbs body weight over the years and I practice good form. There IS a right way to lift, believe it or not.

79

[quote]slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
For the record, why is this board filled with so many beginners who won’t stay in the beginner forum?

Dunno… I actually have to start reading that section and see what they tell people there…

I’m just tired of the discussions here centering around someone experienced saying something like, “there’s nothing wrong with some cheating”…and then getting hammered by 15 newbies who have 14" arms as they all tell you that strict form is essential in their 20lbs dumbbell curls.

The debates never range above any of that bullshit yet everyone here seems to think they are so advanced that they need some hyper-technical over-analyzed super program made for Olympic gymnastics.

Ignorant,just ignorant.

Your one liners need work. I dare you to expand on your point of view with anything that indicates more than two brain cells were used in the process.

Simple. A trainee doesn’t need to ever cheat to get optimal growth. Practicing stellar form has never held back anyone’s gains. Improper technique better known as cheating is more than likely the root cause of most injuries. A doctor of sports medicine would never say to a patient “get in the gym and do some cheat curls” or “arch you back on the bench”. The only exception to this would be juicees. So cheat away.

I am a doctor although not with a specialty in sports medicine. To reach the upper limits of human development, the weight used can often be more important than how perfect the form is. You can’t look at someone with 18+" arms who has had no significant injuries as they gained over 100lbs and claim they are training wrong.

Doc. The simple fact remains. Cheating IS NOT essential to reach maximal growth. Can some do it and get by? Yes, under aforementioned circumstances. Again, a natural trainee with lacking gains can NEVER say “my arms aren’t big because I don’t cheat enough”. If that was the case every bonehead in my gym would be in the Mr. Olympia because just about all of the lifters there cheat. Steller physiques are built with steller form. Off topic-- I wouldn’t want a doctor operating on me if I KNEW he cheating his way through med school. Good grief charlie brown![/quote]

Dude how slow are you? The difference between some moron cheating his ass off on curls and a big dude using loose form has been discussed how many times now?
Are you one of those natural “bodybuilders” who claims that you can only grow so and so much muscle per unit of time?

Do you also think that doing half reps in the top part of ROM on Backwidth exercises is cheating?

And how would you know that “cheating” is not essential to reach maximal growth? How the hell would you know what maximal growth looks like?

80

[quote]Yossarian wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Again, a natural trainee with lacking gains can NEVER say “my arms aren’t big because I don’t cheat enough”. If that was the case every bonehead in my gym would be in the Mr. Olympia because just about all of the lifters there cheat. Steller physiques are built with steller form.

Is it therefore safe to assume that your adherence to stellar form has resulted in a stellar physique? Unlike those boneheads in your gym, will your stellar form be taking you to the O next year? Or ever? [/quote]

Yes. and to answer you next question. NO!