Looking for Training Guidance

LondonBoxer123 · March 21, 2013, 7:07pm

[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:

[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
Hey everyone I just wanted to say, thank you very much for all the advice and great replies. I was suprised how cool everyone was to be honest.

I have decided to take the advice of sticking with one art and getting proficient in it. I am sticking with jiu jitsu and am about to start the one lift a day program while eating at a surplus on the crossfit football nutrition plan. Whole milk and cheese, dairy, veg, nuts , eggs and as much meat as I can eat with the occasional fruit snack.

I will keep a log on here and am looking forward to starting on monday. My training sessions will be as follows:

Monday: Bench Press

Tuesday: weighted chinups

Wednesday: Squat

Thursday: military press

Friday: Deadlifts

Or something similar.

I will be following the wave formatting so one week higher repetitions and or sets such as;

Week One: 7 sets of 5
Week Two: 6 sets of 3
Week Three: 5-3-2
Week Four: Off

I will aim for around 3,000 calories a day and at least 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight.

Once again thank you for the sincere advice people.[/quote]

The advice was sincere, because you stated the facts honestly. I’m not going to say you should change your weight training, you should do what works for you. However, if combat proficiency is your end goal, then you need to be practicing your combat more than stressing about weights and reps. If you believe that you can juggle a heavy weight programme AND serious BJJ training then kudos to you. personally, I am not certain when the world decided benching is more manly than wrenching your enemies limbs out of their sockets.

I will say one thing though, don’t injure yourself starting with weighted chin ups. Do body weight for a while and hone your form (no kipping) and maybe consider weighted chin ups when you can knock out bunches of chin ups. Like bunches and bunches.
[/quote]

Solid advice. I would twist Pidgeonkak’s words and say that I’m with him in thinking you might want to start out with JUST BJJ, until you get used to it. You seem like a decent lad, and it would be a shame if you tried to do everything all at once, got discouraged, and ended up doing nothing at all.

To give advice you haven’t actually asked for, I would eat as much good food as you can, as often as you are hungry, and train hard in BJJ. In a month or two, or three - six, add in some weights if you actually think you’d benefit. Also, a restrictive, or highly planned diet, if it is a new thing, doesn’t seem like a good idea to me either, at this point. Fighting is tough, psychologically as well as physically. Your first couple of months will be draining. Honestly, my advice would be focus on surviving long enough to get into it, make decent food choices as far as you can, and eat when you need to.

Also on weightlifting: I know a few guys who do BJJ or wrestle competitively, and it seems like the kind of sport where you can get more than strong enough by practising hard. I don’t know anyone who grapples in any form who isn’t fit and strong.

sharkOnesie · March 21, 2013, 9:07pm

Just to let everyone know I am really eager to start so I just ran to the gym and did a workout from the plan. I did the 7x5 week bench press workout. I got 60 kilograms for five repetitions every set. It felt heavy and I used perfect form each time. I weigh 76* kilograms as of right now. Does that make me strong or weak? Anyway I enjoyed it but it really did not last as long as expected. Maybe I could of gone heavier but I had no spotter and the gym was empty.

And I think I will take the chinup advice. I just tried as many as I could before leaving the gym and I got seven going all the way up and all the way down slowly. probably not a great idea to weight them as of now.

Sorry for another noob question here guys but when you bench where do you grip the bar? I have my hands super wide, is this optimal?

magick · March 21, 2013, 9:54pm

I would actually lift more than the sports training for a bit until you build a base of strength, provided that you are as untrained as you claim to be in the OP.

Just as an example, I was (still am, but not nearly as) rather slow on the ground game of judo, simply because I lacked the core and leg/arm strength required for the explosive movements required to throw someone off/shift position.

I also lacked the required flexibility and “bounce”, for a lack of a better term, that you need to execute many throws perfectly. I could do them with sheer momentum, but I simply lacked the strength to hold someone on my back or my hips while maintaining good balance.

After a year of lifting, I now have the strength to actually pull throws off without losing my balance, etc. My throws are much smoother; I have the core strength required to effectively pull someone; and I can now actually work on the ground without getting pinned every time someone somewhat heavier than me gets on top of me.

In short, I was terribly weak. Now I’m only sort of weak, and there is a world of difference in what I can do physically.

Just getting to the point where you do 5 reps of 1xbw squat, 1.5xbw dead-lift, .75xbw bench, .5xbw ohp and 10 chin/pull-ups without too much trouble is more than sufficient. Great strength is not required, but some strength is.

You will most certainly build strength while doing BJJ, but that takes a very long time, esp since you’re not doing it 5x a day for 2-3 hours a day. Lifting 3-4 times a week for an hour to two will make a great difference. Once your strength is where you want it to be, you can tone it down to 2-3 times week.

As for specific on weight-training. Why not just do Starting Strength or Stronglift 5x5? Less time is involved and it will get you stronger. You can’t build effective strength as a beginner just doing one main lift a week.

sharkOnesie · March 21, 2013, 10:49pm

[quote]magick wrote:
I would actually lift more than the sports training for a bit until you build a base of strength, provided that you are as untrained as you claim to be in the OP.

Just as an example, I was (still am, but not nearly as) rather slow on the ground game of judo, simply because I lacked the core and leg/arm strength required for the explosive movements required to throw someone off/shift position.

I also lacked the required flexibility and “bounce”, for a lack of a better term, that you need to execute many throws perfectly. I could do them with sheer momentum, but I simply lacked the strength to hold someone on my back or my hips while maintaining good balance.

After a year of lifting, I now have the strength to actually pull throws off without losing my balance, etc. My throws are much smoother; I have the core strength required to effectively pull someone; and I can now actually work on the ground without getting pinned every time someone somewhat heavier than me gets on top of me.

In short, I was terribly weak. Now I’m only sort of weak, and there is a world of difference in what I can do physically.

Just getting to the point where you do 5 reps of 1xbw squat, 1.5xbw dead-lift, .75xbw bench, .5xbw ohp and 10 chin/pull-ups without too much trouble is more than sufficient. Great strength is not required, but some strength is.

You will most certainly build strength while doing BJJ, but that takes a very long time, esp since you’re not doing it 5x a day for 2-3 hours a day. Lifting 3-4 times a week for an hour to two will make a great difference. Once your strength is where you want it to be, you can tone it down to 2-3 times week.

As for specific on weight-training. Why not just do Starting Strength or Stronglift 5x5? Less time is involved and it will get you stronger. You can’t build effective strength as a beginner just doing one main lift a week.[/quote]

Thanks for the advice. I have the exact same experience in BJJ. I have never been tapped by someone my size apart from one dude who is crazy good and freakishly strong for our size. The only other times I ever get tapped is by dudes about 2 or three stone heavier than me.
I feel like technique is good but if your opponent is just as technical as you but is far stronger you just end up being mauled and broken.

I am confused about your question. I am not doing one main lift a week am I?, I am lifting 5 times a week. One main compound lift a day

sharkOnesie · March 21, 2013, 10:53pm

[quote]MWP wrote:

[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:

I have decided to take the advice of sticking with one art and getting proficient in it. I am sticking with jiu jitsu and am about to start the one lift a day program while eating at a surplus on the crossfit football nutrition plan.[/quote]

If there is any advice I can give you in BJJ it’s work on your cardio. The biggest hurdle most people have starting out is their gas and the best way to accomplish this is actually the easiest to do, roll. You can run, swim, etc… but there is no substitute for the real thing. Roll as much as your instructor will let you, which will usually be after technique. Not only will this work on your cardio, it will probably get you promoted quicker.

Also, focus on your breathing. That’s another big hang-up that new white belts have besides just generally going 100% all the time. Slow down and breath.

Good choice on picking BJJ and good luck. It’s a journey. [/quote]

Thats what my coach tells me all the time; “slow the fuck down, slow the fuck down and breath, you look fucking nuts”

magick · March 21, 2013, 11:19pm

Sorry, I meant to say doing that particular lift only once a week.

That’s simply not enough stimulus to actually create any relevant strength.

sharkOnesie · March 22, 2013, 12:40am

[quote]magick wrote:
Sorry, I meant to say doing that particular lift only once a week.

That’s simply not enough stimulus to actually create any relevant strength.[/quote]

I thought it would be a good routine because it is the one the dude who wins the highland games, Dan John recommends. Plus there are tonnes of success stories online. Maybe I won’t use the wave and just go to complete faliure each lift, high volume with lower repetition ranges?

I was thinking about the strong lifts or starting strength programs but all the before and after shots seem terrible and I can’t see squatting multiple times a week heavy going with 3 hours grappling every day once I resume my jiujitsu training.

I have no knowledge whatsoever though in regards to strength training and my true recovery times post heavy squatting and so forth.

I think what attracts me to this is also the simplicity, one lift per day, heavy weights and short intense workouts.

magick · March 22, 2013, 3:34am

One main lift a day is fine if you’re already a trained individual. In fact, one or two days a week is best if you’re a trained individual. 3x a week is overkill if you’re squatting 300+, benching 250+, deadlifting 400+, what have you. That’s what makes stuff like 5/3/1 great as a strength program.

But since you’re not a trained individual, sheer volume and repetition is more important than the amount of weight you’re moving each rep. Those reps don’t, and really shouldn’t, be heavy, since BJJ is going to be a big part of your training.

You can be lifting at 50% of your 1rm for squat and deadlift and only increasing 5 or 10lb a week, and that’ll still be sufficient. You just need to get a good amount of reps in. Iirc, it’s really more of getting your body adapted to the very act of moving loads that is important, not that you’re lifting heavy shit. Your body will build lean mass to adapt and deal with the movements themselves, and these mass contribute to better body movement. This in turn helps with the rigors of training.

Once your strength is at a good level, then you should move onto stuff that has fewer volume and more intensity.

This all being said, if you’re doing 3hr of BJJ everyday, then it’s a whole different story. In that case, I’d really just go with 2 days of lifting and with an A/B split and just see how it goes.

Pigeonkak · March 23, 2013, 7:11am

[quote]magick wrote:
One main lift a day is fine if you’re already a trained individual. In fact, one or two days a week is best if you’re a trained individual. 3x a week is overkill if you’re squatting 300+, benching 250+, deadlifting 400+, what have you. That’s what makes stuff like 5/3/1 great as a strength program.

But since you’re not a trained individual, sheer volume and repetition is more important than the amount of weight you’re moving each rep. Those reps don’t, and really shouldn’t, be heavy, since BJJ is going to be a big part of your training.

You can be lifting at 50% of your 1rm for squat and deadlift and only increasing 5 or 10lb a week, and that’ll still be sufficient. You just need to get a good amount of reps in. Iirc, it’s really more of getting your body adapted to the very act of moving loads that is important, not that you’re lifting heavy shit. Your body will build lean mass to adapt and deal with the movements themselves, and these mass contribute to better body movement. This in turn helps with the rigors of training.

Once your strength is at a good level, then you should move onto stuff that has fewer volume and more intensity.

This all being said, if you’re doing 3hr of BJJ everyday, then it’s a whole different story. In that case, I’d really just go with 2 days of lifting and with an A/B split and just see how it goes.[/quote]

What Magick is saying all makes sense.

Before you take any advice from any of us sit down and meditate on what you want to ACHIEVE and what you want to DO. Because they are two different things. The ideal situation is to do the thing that progressively gets you closer to what you want to ultimately achieve.

They don’t always synergise like that though, this is especially true of weight training and MA. As for form advice, go to the TNATION archive of exercise videos and see Christian Thibaudeau’s advice.

Magick is right, strength helps. Analyse whatever plan you choose to take every 6 weeks. If you are not noticing improvements in areas of coordination, mobility, basic strength and perhaps speed (depending on your training objectives) then switch things up. Dan John’s whole concept is that of simplicity, which is the real lesson you should take from the programme you’re looking at doing. Keep it simple, but always know what you want to achieve and do what achieves that.

Having said that, full body training may be more appropriate for BJJ. But it’s all up to you, because when you’re attempting to escape an armbar soon none of us will be there to help.

sharkOnesie · March 23, 2013, 8:24pm

Just thought I would let everyone know that I have decided on this routine following OLAD:

MONDAY:CHINUPS
TUESDAY:BENCH
WEDNESDAY:SQUAT
THURSDAY: REST
FRIDAY:DIPS
SATURDAY:DEADLIFT
SUNDAY:OVERHEAD PRESS

I will be consuming around 3 to 4 thousand calories a day. with at least half a gallon of whole milk and lots of chicken steak and vegetables.

I will do no cardio apart from 10 minutes warm up and warm down each workout of jumping rope at a slow steady pace.

Once I am back to jiujitsu I will drop down my routine to

A.DEADLIFT AND CHINUP

B.SQUAT AND BENCH PRESS

I will also drop the volume and repetitions and will be going for triples, doubles and singles to avoid the lactic acid and soreness while focusing on strength and explosiveness. I will up my calories by around a thousand and a half a day more to stop weight loss from the 2-3 hours of rolling a day.

I have bought a pad and will be recording my nutrition and workouts and am going to start my log on Tnation on monday.

I won’t really be posting that much on the forums apart from the log so just wanted to say I am thankful for all the great advice and kind words.

I have taken some before pictures and recorded my current lifting numbers and after six months of the log will compare them for all to see. Motivation to stay focused.

magick · March 23, 2013, 11:55pm

Honestly, I’m confused. You’re eating a bulking diet when athleticism and strength are your primary goals. And you’re using what seems like, to the best of my knowledge, an intermediate or above lifting plan when you’re, at least given the info you gave, a beginner at best in strength.

And I guarantee you, you will not lose weight even if you do BJJ 2-3 hours a day. In fact, you’ll gain weight if you’re eating 4k+ a day. A lot of those will be fat.

While it’s possible to gain mass and strength while doing a sport, it won’t be optimal. But it doesn’t have to be. Obviously your goal is BJJ, and as such you should focus on it. It’s only natural.

But my experience tells me that it’s absolutely critical that you build a solid base of strength before you can become serious in a combat sport. Maybe judo and bjj is different in this regard because you don’t have to occasionally lift 200+lb men onto your back. Maybe not. In any case, I can tell you definitively that my judo skills became considerably better when I chose to build strength, and virtually no one will tell a beginner to only do a main lift only once a day. It’s simply not enough stimulus.

But whatever floats your boat. Best of luck with your future endeavors.

sharkOnesie · March 24, 2013, 12:20am

[quote]magick wrote:
Honestly, I’m confused. You’re eating a bulking diet when athleticism and strength are your primary goals. And you’re using what seems like, to the best of my knowledge, an intermediate or above lifting plan when you’re, at least given the info you gave, a beginner at best in strength.

And I guarantee you, you will not lose weight even if you do BJJ 2-3 hours a day. In fact, you’ll gain weight if you’re eating 4k+ a day. A lot of those will be fat.

While it’s possible to gain mass and strength while doing a sport, it won’t be optimal. But it doesn’t have to be. Obviously your goal is BJJ, and as such you should focus on it. It’s only natural.

But my experience tells me that it’s absolutely critical that you build a solid base of strength before you can become serious in a combat sport. Maybe judo and bjj is different in this regard because you don’t have to occasionally lift 200+lb men onto your back. Maybe not. In any case, I can tell you definitively that my judo skills became considerably better when I chose to build strength, and virtually no one will tell a beginner to only do a main lift only once a day. It’s simply not enough stimulus.

But whatever floats your boat. Best of luck with your future endeavors.[/quote]

Hey man thanks.

I thought eating at a surplus was necessary to get stronger?

sharkOnesie · March 24, 2013, 2:40am

There are so many, which would be best for my goals in your opinion magick, you seem knowledgeable on the subject.

sharkOnesie · March 24, 2013, 4:13pm

Fuck it going to take your advice dude. Going to do SS until I can’t progress any further.

magick · March 24, 2013, 4:46pm

Strength=/=Mass. Conversely, getting stronger=/=getting bigger, and getting bigger=/=getting stronger. Blasphemy on a website like T-Nation? Maybe, but thankfully we’re in the combat section.

Physical strength is a combination of motor function(or whichever better term to explain that it’s your neurological to tell your muscle to do X or Y and having your muscles actually do it), muscle mass, and sheer willpower. Given that you have people who weight 140 or 150 dead-lifting 500+lb, I’d say that muscle mass has less to do with it than motor function and sheer willpower. That’s why it’s imperative that you do a lot of repetitions. It’s literally practice and strengthening your body’s ability to tell muscle X to do this or that moreso than the stress and all the micro-tears and crap. At least when it comes to getting stronger. That’s why it’s certainly possible to get stronger by just doing 50-60% of your 1rm, and in fact is more preferable to do it in that fashion for most people.

This should hold true moreso for people who are practicing combat sports. Why do you practice a technique over and over until it becomes ingrained into your body? Muscle memory, right? What is muscle memory? Basically the ability to perform an action with no actual effort required to tell your muscles to do X or Y. You think it, and it happens.

That’s why that sweep or hold seems so complicated the first time you see it and try it, but after doing it constantly for a year or two it becomes easy to just get into it. Your muscles have become so used to your brain’s commands that it requires no effort.

But imagine if you don’t even have the experience at telling your muscles to do X or Y. Then obviously training in itself will be difficult, ya? The purpose of strength training is so that you already have the act of telling your muscles and body-parts to do X or Y before you start with complicated techniques. Doing both at the same time sucks.

Here’s a personal story (I’m sorry, I love them too much)- Before I started squatting, I never actually did the whole squat movement until I started judo. It was hard. My body was not used to the movement of just squatting down, and a good number of judo throws require you to be able to squat. So, I basically had to teach my muscles how to squat while simutaneously handling a good 150+lb suddenly on the back when that never occurred before along with all the foot and hand movements. It doesn’t work very well, esp since my muscles were simply not used to bearing any weight whatsoever. End result- I had a difficult time just executing the movements.

Then I graduated from college and began lifting and started judo again a year after starting lifting. Now I can throw a man who looks to be at least 190lb without any trouble whatsoever. This after over a year of not even doing judo. In fact, my form is better than it ever has been. And the best I could squat at that point was 5x of 205. My 1rm was 235 or something like that.

That’s why it’s important to think of lifting as more of training your motor function than just putting on muscle. Muscle is important, but for a combat sport practitioner the improvement of the motor function and general flexibility is more important. Mass is not.

And you simply cannot train motor function if you give a main lift only 20-30 min of practice a week. That’s like saying you can get better at the seoinage (a judo throw) by just practicing it 20-30 min a week. No. Not going to happen.

Do not think like a body-building/power-lifter. You’re neither. Do any program that has you doing the big movements at least 2-3x a week. You can increase in weights 5lb a week and you’re still going to be good. The very act of doing the movements is what matters, not how much weight you’re moving.

sharkOnesie · March 24, 2013, 6:10pm

[quote]magick wrote:
Strength=/=Mass. Conversely, getting stronger=/=getting bigger, and getting bigger=/=getting stronger. Blasphemy on a website like T-Nation? Maybe, but thankfully we’re in the combat section.