I need some help to figure out how to get from where I am to where I want to be. I’m trying to understand the long term strategy.
Where I am:
I’m 28yo, 5’11", 143ish lbs. I used to be a distance runner: thin, long legs, long arms, a fairly average torso length, and a high metabolism.
Plus a tiny bone structure… 5.5" wrists.
(Measurements are slightly outdated, but close enough.)
What I’m doing:
I just started the 20-rep squat program per Stuart McRobert: 20rep squats + 20rep pullovers + 15rep SDLs with floor press, overhead press, and barbell rows. With GOMAD. Previously I’d done 6wks of starting strength with GOMAD too, but stopped for about 9 months
Where I want to be:
I’m training predominately for aesthetics, but not to compete either in bb or pl. I want to train in the direction of the golden age lifters… the classic physique with arms = neck = calves, wide shoulders, narrow waist, and everything nicely balanced in between.
The general gist I’ve gotten here is 1) get big, 2) get bigger, 3) sculpt it.
However, I’m having some trouble quantifying what that means for me. It leaves me with some questions.
How much mass should I put on before I really think about focusing on proportions?
Does it make any sense to focus on proportions now? Sticking with McCallum’s calculations, that means to get arms, calves and chest up to a certain point… just so I have a certain amount of proportion now.
How easy is it to permanently screw up proportions by, say, getting too thick of a waist?
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’m trying to understand the long term strategy.
…
I’m 28yo, 5’11", 143ish lbs.
…
I’m training predominately for aesthetics, but not to compete either in bb or pl. I want to train in the direction of the golden age lifters… the classic physique with arms = neck = calves, wide shoulders, narrow waist, and everything nicely balanced in between.[/quote]
The long term strategy to reach these goals will be to build you up to a pretty lean 200-ish pounds while significantly increasing strength in the basic lifts along the way.
What, exactly, did you eat yesterday?
Out of curiosity, what weights are you using for the squat and stiff leg deadlift?
Did you stop for a particular reason (injury, relocation, etc.), or do you just fizzle out?
That’s like asking how much meat should I make a hamburger with before I start focusing on the seasonings. They go hand in hand, to an extent.
One of the big criticisms of Starting Strength, for example, is a lack of direct arm work which can, sometimes, lead to lagging arms down the road. For 100% maximum and complete development, there’s usually little reason to avoid some kind of training for every muscle group.
Even before the Golden Age that you were talking about, one of the first “20 rep squat” plans from the '30s used the squat, pullover, overhead press, and barbell curl.
You’re starting from such a place of underdevelopment (no offense), that everything needs some attention. Fortunately, once you give your body the nutrition it craves and the weight training-stimulus to build size, you should get a pretty serious boost all around. So there’s no major need to over-focus on “building proportion” before we even lay a solid foundation. Lift consistently for two months, gain strength, eat well and gain bodyweight, then reassess.
For the majority of people, it’s very hard to screw things up that badly. For people with no intentions of competing (and thus, different standards), it’s even harder. Getting your squat or deadlift up to 405 will not make your waist “too wide.”
Depends on whether you quit after 6 weeks again. (I kid, I kid. Sorta.)
Had a long work day, so not as much food and not as healthily:
1 gallon whole milk throughout the day. 16oz OJ for breakfast. A regular Quizno’s Lobster and Seafood sub on white bread for lunch, with a Sobe Citrus Energy to drink. Didn’t get any dinner in.
I used my starting strength levels for my 5RM, subtracted 90, then bumped it up a bit. I’ve been going up ~10#/workout so far. I’m going to keep doing that until I can’t, and then drop to 5#. SS started things off so low, but I had nothing else to go by.
Did you stop for a particular reason (injury, relocation, etc.), or do you just fizzle out?[/quote]
I went on vacation, and subsequently tore some lower abdomen fascia while white water rafting in Denver. When I healed, I tried to get back into it but it never happened. I screwed around here and there, with sporadic entries in my log, but didn’t start taking things seriously again until a few weeks ago.
As far as my experience with SS… I work out at home and I’m a little ADD (clinically, not just per popular usage) so the rest periods for 5x5 were killing me; it’s really hard to just sit around and wait. 20 straight reps is much “easier”, mentally. I can concentrate the whole time.
That’s been kind of my impression with SS and 20rep squats. Basically, do the program… but if you want to work on something specific AFTER doing all of that, go ahead. I think Pavel said something like that too in PTP.
You’re starting from such a place of underdevelopment (no offense), that everything needs some attention. Fortunately, once you give your body the nutrition it craves and the weight training-stimulus to build size, you should get a pretty serious boost all around. So there’s no major need to over-focus on “building proportion” before we even lay a solid foundation. Lift consistently for two months, gain strength, eat well and gain bodyweight, then reassess.[/quote]
That’s kind of what I was thinking. Somewhere I’d read to focus on proportions first, and then try to grow and stay in proportion. But as I learned more, that doesn’t seem to make so much sense… at least not until I have some growth to begin with.
Oh, and no offense taken. I know this is going to be a long journey, and I’m not as genetically gifted for this as I was for running.
Depends on whether you quit after 6 weeks again. (I kid, I kid. Sorta.)[/quote]
Honestly, right now (2 weeks in) I’m going to see if I can run “squats and milk” for 12 or more weeks with a deload week around week 7 or 8. After that? Dunno. I’ll worry about that then.
[quote]chobbs wrote:
How are you liking GOMAD? Do you just sip it throughout the day or break it up through the day?[/quote]
He is not doing GOMAD.
A sub and a gallon of milk is breakfast and lunch.[/quote]
Yeah. That wasn’t GOMAD there. A gallon of milk a day, sure, but not GOMAD… kind of in the same way as doing 20 reps of squats isn’t the same as a 20 rep squat program.
That being said…
I just keep a disposable cup on my desk at the office and bring a gallon in in the morning. I drink a cup and keep refilling it throughout the day. It provides a nice constant source of energy from the sugars that way. When I first started, I had to force myself to drink it, but eventually my body just started craving it. “Craving” might be a little too strong; it’s just that there’s a desire for it, like how people snack on something if it’s sitting next to them.
If I’m not done with the gallon by the end of the day, I force myself to drink the rest before I leave. Hell, right now, I just left the bar where I was playing pool and came back to the office to finish the gallon before I go home.
I seem to be one of those 15% or so of people who actually tolerate lactose. While there’s a lot of clearly lactose intolerant people, many others are still partially intolerant.
It probably took me a week or so to work up to it. Mostly I just learned not to down a huge glass in one sitting. Hope that helps.
Had a long work day, so not as much food and not as healthily:[/quote]
This is absolutely 100% why I asked.
Not to single you out, but when I ask people this question after they say how they’re trying to gain size, a reliable 75% of the time they have some excuse as to why yesterday was “just some special/unexpected case of lousy eating” even though it won’t get them closer to their goals.
Just saying, you have to plan ahead and keep an eye on what you eat or else you’ll end up having more and more days like this without realizing it, and three month from now, you’ll be wondering why your progress hasn’t been nearly as good as it could’ve been.
I hear ya. When you do the 20 rep sets, are you knocking out 10 in a row and then breathing deep between the subsequent reps? I ran a high rep squat program myself earlier this year and felt better taking two or three breaths between every rep starting from the first. Not too big a deal though.
[quote]Honestly, right now (2 weeks in) I’m going to see if I can run “squats and milk” for 12 or more weeks with a deload week around week 7 or 8. After that? Dunno. I’ll worry about that then.
But first, I need to make it to 6 weeks…[/quote]
Ha, exactly. Let’s get to that 6 or 8 week mark first and check the strength and bodyweight gains before we start counting on a deload.
Not to single you out, but when I ask people this question after they say how they’re trying to gain size, a reliable 75% of the time they have some excuse as to why yesterday was “just some special/unexpected case of lousy eating” even though it won’t get them closer to their goals.[/quote]
Somewhat related:
Awhile ago, I finally learned the lesson about being honest with this stuff. Truth is, most of us are here because we’re not entirely satisfied with where we are right now. There’s no point deceiving anyone that we’re doing better than we really are, because that’s not going to get us the help we need.
Now when you’re gambling… that’s whole 'nother story.
I’m a little iffy on nutritional advice these days. There’s too much noise. Clearly the 6 meals a day + workout shakes + supplement approach works for people, so I’m not discounting that.
When I first heard about GOMAD, I did more research into it, and found an interesting book about the “Milk Diet”. Early 20th century, doctors were curing bedridden patients on a diet of pure milk and fresh air. Even the Mayo Institute (precursor to the Mayo Clinic) endorsed the treatment.
So, of course, I’m like “I wonder if I can live off of just milk?” And I tried it myself and it turns out you definitely can live just fine off of 4-6 quarts a day. That, and a multivitamin. At an average of $2.87 a gallon pre-tax, it’s a pretty cheap way to live fairly healthily.
I still had “real” meals with my girlfriend and coworkers or whenever I just had a craving for something, but milk became my primary food source. The simple carbs just require you keep a constant influx of it, which is not a problem with the office fridge across the hall.
Around February or so, I lost 8 pounds due to illness, and I hit 129 at the low point there. With a combination of milk, food, and minimal exercise, I worked myself up to 139 with effectively no fat gain. I just decided I wanted to be better off than that, and started looking into options: 20rep squats + pullovers + milk seemed to be the best bet at this point.
And that’s where I am. I went from 139 two weeks ago, to 144 this morning.
My food choices might not be perfect, but I’m pretty sure I’m eating better than Arthur Saxon did. I drink about 99 less bottles of beer per day than he did.
I pretty much stay away from HFCS, hydrogenated oils and foods with questionable ingredient lists (how much filler really is in a mcdonald’s burger?). Otherwise, I generally lean toward higher protein, lower starch foods (I avoid potatoes). I just don’t cook much for myself anymore.
It’s an interesting read, just take it with a grain of salt. But that’s like anything.
I’ve really just been waiting until I needed it, around 12 breaths or so. I’ve gotten fairly confused as to the ideal way to do it. I’ve been doing squats, not “breathing squats”.
My best guess, if there’s any truth to the whole ribcage expansion idea, is that it should be 3-5 deep chest-stretching breaths between every rep, starting from rep 1. I’ll start doing that starting today.
As for the pullovers, I’m doing them pretty much as Calvert described in Super Strength. Deep breath, straight arms, lower and raise slowly and make sure the chest gets stretched. Also a deep breath in and out at the top. “Breathing” pullovers.
I don’t know if it works, Calvert’s writing was pretty convincing though. There is an observable difference in the actual chest arch of the earlier builders, in the sense that it points more upwards rather than forward/down. I prefer that raised chest look.
If Calvert, Jowett (at least I think it was him), and many others are correct, and there’s some truth to the whole rib-box expansion theory, then pullovers are probably the key to that look.
