London Bombing

"Zap, look at your anger for these bombings in London which otherwise don’t affect your day to day life. You will still go to work today come home talk to your kids and wife and eat a nice dinner.

I would bet this is a similar scenario for 9/11 understandably anger producing, but not affecting your day to day life significantly.

Now put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi or Afghani who would otherwise not give two shits about America how they feel after a 500 pound bomb drops on the block or village they live in wiping out every single member of their family children, wife, mother, father!

Imagine if you were a Palestinian who at one time in his life was rounded up by Israeli intelligence and tortured or had family killed.

Do you think for poor impoverished people that don’t have tanks, fighter jets, warships, or 1000 pounds bombs, they may think we are the terrorists when are power is brought to bear on them sometimes unjustly?

I feel the terrorists are our enemy, but I also think it’s the height of arrogance and ignorance to always act so pure and virginal when were attacked as if we have never through our policies and actions hurt other peoples in this world and are partly responsible for the hatred and violence directed at us.

I also think America has been a very positive force and helped many people the world over, but to take the line that some of the right wing extremist nutjobs do is IMO irrational, immature, and does nothing to help or stop the problem… it just creates more. "

Very good post.

I feel for the families of those injured or killed. I am glad my relatives were fine although one was very lucky. Getting into another argument about Islam and the war on terror so soon after this has happened.

I also notice someone keeps talking about ‘our’ brethren. People living in New York and London. Yes it hurts more because it strikes close to home for me and some Americans may have relatives there, but I guarantee if it was Paris you would not be saying those same things. We are all people, all human beings. Any atrocity such as this is horrific, no matter who did it to who. Its time the world moved on from having such narrow borders and small groups of allies hating everyone else. We are citizens of the world, we are all human beings, we must do our best at all times to remember that when you start hating a whole religion. So hypocritical to talk about the hate of Islam when you clearly hate it so much in turn yourself.

Terrorism isn’t necassrily the answer but I do not think you can lump everything into that same basket of ‘terrorism’. At times it is necessary. When you talk about the IRA, whilst you and I disagree with the continuation of the military organization, you surely understand the need for it at one point in time? If there was no IRA then there would never have been a Republic of Ireland. 6 counties remain under british control, obviously some agree with this, some don’t, but at the current point in time there is no solution. This is why terrorist organizations exist, to protect there way of life and their country. Americans need to remember this when they invade another country, you are creating as many terrorists as you stop, you cannot force your way of life on another nation.


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[quote]JeffR wrote:
Just wanted to let you know that you can kiss my ass. “It’s our fault” bullshit has no place in the discussion. al qaeda needs the Ditch.

JeffR
[/quote]
In some countries there is no such thing as no-fault accidents–for instance in Okinawa if you are responsible for a car crash (which is very easy because the roads are so narrow) or if you are unlucky enough to be the victim of someone else’s negligence–oh well, too bad; you are at least 50% at fault for getting in the car.

What is my point in making this analogy? To insist that we are innocent and undeserving of such brutal behavior is ignorant. I will quote something I often heard at the family dinner table while growing up at the end of the Vietnam War era, “there is no such thing as innocent victims, there are no civilians in war.” I often though of this a some cold-hearted way of slugging off responsibility for the deaths of women and children, but now I see it as partial truth. We are in an un-winnable war against ideals. We insist that we are mighty and in the right–they insist otherwise. We want to enforce the ideals that we grew up with and know (those being of the Judeo-Christian faiths and democracy)–they insist theirs is the only way. How many bombs will it take before either side is convinced we are all at fault?

Sorry, if I have offended. It is not my intention to make light of the death of others–just trying to understand why…?

bikejames read my response in the previous page.and btw your history is flawed Muslims gave Christians safe passage to the Holy Lands during the Crusades, whereas the Christians gave them none, then with France they found it too cold, but look at Spain at the Al-Ahambra mosque where muslims ruled for 200 years peacefully

nabz, I have no hate for you or for peaceful Muslims. I truly do not understand how you could believe that.

I have tried to make it very clear that I understand that while these murderers do their work under the guise of Islam, not all Muslims support it. For the last 25 years of my life of have seen Muslims around the world march through the streets and chant “Death to America”. In order to fix the problems this has to stop.

I wish we would hear more about things such as the meeting you described. It seems they are aware of the problems with factions in Islam and are trying to do something about it. I wish them all the luck in the world.

It is very frustrating not to see more signs of peace from the Islamic world.

What truly pisses me off are these nutjob asshole conspiracy fools that blame our governments for the terrorist attacks against us.

The Islamic extremists are the enemy. The way to end this war is to stop them, not shift blame.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
For the last 25 years of my life of have seen Muslims around the world march through the streets and chant “Death to America”. In order to fix the problems this has to stop.
[/quote]

These are the same people that marched through the streets and chanted “long live saddam”…most of the times these protests aren’t people organizing to chant things like “Death to America”, “long live saddam” etc of their own free will. These are organized my local governments who force people to go and do this.

The flaw in your arguement is that you assume that the people of the middle east are free as we are and are creating these demonstrations because they want to, not because they’re forced to.

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
.[/quote]

Troll.

I just heard from a friend who almost got wiped out by some debris… luckily hes fine although he did say something amazing:

‘I helped a few people up and away, phoned work to tell them I was going to be late, and brushed myself down… it’s chaos down here but everything has been dealt with great. Gotta go, the boss is coming down soon, you know what hes like with us lot using the internet.’

That isnt word for word, but it is almost exactly what he said. Talk about taking things in your stride.

Everyone I have talked to that I know in london have been very cool about it - not very emotional or anything, just to the point. A family member of mine is getting a life home from a friend with a motorbike etc, and they’re just getting along.

Props to the ambulance, police and fire brigade. BIG props.

Watson has put it well Zap. Also there are loads of seminars against terrorism but unfortunately these never get highlighted as they lack the funds to become prevalent. If you can search for Dr.Zakir Naik on the net,Yusuf Islam, and go to www.islamfortoday.com for examples of muslims speaking out,and just a general understanding of true islam

Ok.
Seriously, let’s stop waving flags and holy books in each other’s faces for long enough to a) consider everyone who is being effected by the “war on terror” i.e. those poor, apolitical saps trying to get to work on time in London or Baghdad who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and b) consider how well our “strategy” for dealing with islamo-facism is working.

If al-qaeda is successfully blowing up London and Madrid commuters, then we’re failing at beating them. If Iraq went from a country without appreciable al-qaeda presence (due to Saddam’s ruthless persecution) to being a hotbed of amatuer beheading videos, then something isn’t working right.

I’ve never been convinced that the US or UK or even our “allies” Israel are responsible for the September 11th or July 7th attacks, but the only people profitting from the “war on terror” are the weapons industry, al-qaeda, and the status quo in the West. While our leaders sit comfortably behind a wall of security (or in a jail cell like Saddam) and discuss what is to be done, us lowly “citizens” get killed.

Why? Are we supposed to take comfort in the promises of “more to come:” more suffering, more restriction, more war, more terrorism, and more death for the American, British, Iraqi, Palestinian, Spanish, Israeli, etc. people?

Sounds great. Let’s just keep doing what we’re doing. It obviously works. Why fix something that isn’t broken? More government and more war can solve any problem.

LIFTICUSMAXIMUS,

“How many bombs will it take before either side is convinced we are all at fault?”

A possible strong word?

Makkun

[quote]bluey wrote:
Islam is peace? yeah right![/quote]

What about Christianty Punk Ass after what Timothy McVeigh did? Is that Peace? Go suck a nut ass hole and leave religion and God out of this.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
For the last 25 years of my life of have seen Muslims around the world march through the streets and chant “Death to America”. [/quote]

well maybe if America stops meddling around with their affairs they would stop… after all, these terrorists didnt just blow things up without giving warning long ago… they said it themselves in the video, that they warned the UK to pull out of Afhganistan and Iraq and to stop fucking around with other people’s lives, and that if they didnt, they will be bombed… maybe they should have listened. i still condemn the attacks and i still think they are absolutely anti-islamic and against all humanity, but if you wanna know the reason behind this hatred then its because the US and the UK are still controling the affairs of others for their own benefit…

and you blaming the horrible “undemocratic” rulers of the arab or muslim world is naive, because the only reason these rulers are there is that America wants them there… America can never allow for a completely free democratic election in the important countries of the Arab world like Egypt or Iraq because in completely free elections anyone can win (including those who are not controlled by the U.S govt)… whereas nowadays the American govt has the Arab rulers in their pockets. They WANT these rulers to stay. They cannot afford to allow the Arabs any democracy because then you never know if they can control the next person who is elected. every single Arab knows this, and so do millions of europians and asians and non-americans. you Americans can live out your fantasy lives that you are trying to spread democracy in the world. But maybe if you just pull out of other countries and stop messing around with people’s lives and affairs, there would be no more hatred and no more bombings. But of course you won’t, because America has a huge budget deficit, a lot of debts to settle, and scarce resources left… so they need to be in other countries, “protecting the world from evil” and securing some resources to keep the country going.

[quote]nabz wrote:
Watson has put it well Zap. Also there are loads of seminars against terrorism but unfortunately these never get highlighted as they lack the funds to become prevalent. If you can search for Dr.Zakir Naik on the net,Yusuf Islam, and go to www.islamfortoday.com for examples of muslims speaking out,and just a general understanding of true islam
[/quote]

I will check it out.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Leave it to the looney left to defend those guilty of these crimes.

It was claimed by “al-Qaida of Europe”, but it must have been the same guys that attacked Oklahoma City.

Pull your head out of your asses people!

This is a real war. Your opposition to the war only furthers our enemies goals.[/quote]

ZB-

The news story posted online at 8:00 AM (ET) confirms that al qaida is responsible.

The libs post were before this time.

I knew it was al qaida as soon as I heard about this which was later than 8 AM.

You must have read something different than I did or are you trying to be funny.

No one insinuated that ‘American Taliban’ performed the bombings much like Oklahoma City fiasco.

I am angry too but lashing out at people because you misread something does not make any sense.

Proceed with your angry tirade…

[quote]FCFighter wrote:
Not all Muslims are terrorists, but almost all terrorists are Muslims. [/quote]

Hahahaha.

That was a great one. I guess all the terrorism in Ireland, in the ex USSR regions, phillipines, korea, etc is done by muslims as well.

Get your head out of your ass. War on terrorism is not a religious war, the more ignorance you show towards their religion the easier it becomes for the moronic extremists to recruit confused people and brain wash them with nothing but hate against you.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I do not condemn Islam because I do not know enough about it. I do know hate is being spead in the name of Islam and it is wrong.[/quote]

America needs to put more pressure on dictatorships that push Muslim extremism as a way to control their people (Saudi Arabia).

When we support these dictators we support Muslim extremism.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
nabz wrote:
A bunch of stuff from the Koran.

The good words in the Koran are outweighed by the actions of these murderers on a day like today.

True Muslims have to unite and kick these people out. I do not see enough of this happening.

There are not enough Muslim voices against the terrorism. Muslims danced in the street after 9/11. Where was the outcry against these actions?

Your quotations were hollow words in the light of these actions. You should be making strong condemnations against those hijacking the Islam faith.

Hate is being preached in mosques and schools. Direct your energy to stopping that.

[/quote]

I dont agree with a few of your points. But your point on muslim countries not doing enough is the best point anyone made in the whole thread. No muslim country helped in the afghanistan situation besides its direct neighbour pakistan to some extend. But the sources of funds isnt pakistan. The terrorist are funded by very wealthy people and parties, Pakistan as such is a poor country compared to Saudia, UAE, Kuwait etc. Why didnt those countries freeze the accounts of the people funding terrorists? Why didn’t they arrest anyone?

I hate terrorists and its a combo of cultural and religous factors:

REligous: In muslim society it is a positive thing to get revenge on " outside opppressors " in a violent way. Suicide bombings if done against these outside oppressors will bring a muslim to heaven bc he is " protecting " his homeland.

Cultural - This is a result of america and europeans involvement in Iraq plain and simple if we weren’t there they would leave us alone. This is why I have been against the conflict in iraq from day one, bc it angers the arabs and angry arabs apparantly take revenge

[quote]hedo wrote:
jlesk68 wrote:
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Troll.

[/quote]

hedo bud, the proper term is Tube Steak Boogie. Please get it right next time.

V