London Bombing

http://www.sundayherald.com/25646

London has bombed itself before

Exclusive: confessions of a secret agent turned terrorist
By Neil Mackay

KEVIN Fulton is very clear about where the orders were coming from. ‘I was told that this was sanctioned right at the top,’ he says, sipping a Pepsi in the bar of a Glasgow hotel. 'I was told ‘there’ll be no medals for this, and no recognition, but this goes the whole way to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister knows what you are doing.’

This was 1980, and if Margaret Thatcher knew about the activities of military intelligence agents such as Fulton, then she was also aware her own military officers were planning to infiltrate British soldiers as ‘moles’ into the IRA. These moles were ordered by their handlers to carry out terrorist crimes in order to keep their cover within the Provos so they could feed information on other leading republicans back to security forces.

For almost two years the Sunday Herald has been investigating the activities of the FRU – the Force Research Unit, an ultra-secret wing of British military intelligence. Fulton worked for the FRU for much of his career as an IRA mole. This unit, which has been under investigation by Scotland Yard commissioner Sir John Stevens for more than a decade, was involved in the murder of civilians in Northern Ireland.

Nicholas Benwell, a detective sergeant formerly attached to the Stevens Inquiry, says the Scotland Yard team came to one conclusion: that military intelligence was colluding with terrorists to help them kill so-called ‘legitimate targets’ such as active republicans. FRU handlers passed documents and photographs to their agents operating within paramilitary groups detailing targets’ movements and the whereabouts of their homes. Pictures were also handed over to help gunmen identify their victims. But there was a problem. The targeting was far from professional and many of the victims of these government-backed hit squads were innocent civilians.

In 1989 the FRU passed information to the UDA which the loyalist gang used to murder the Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane, who was shot dead in front of his wife and children. Last week, Prime Minister Tony Blair pledged that the Government was determined to uncover the truth about Finucane’s murder. The Canadian judge Peter Cory who was called in by the government to investigate the case is expected to recommend a public inquiry. The Irish government is also pressing for an inquiry of its own.

So who was the overall controller of the FRU with its ‘licence to kill’ republicans? Until now it seemed that responsibility for the activities of the FRU rested on the shoulders of one man – Brigadier Gordon Kerr, the Scottish officer who led the unit and is now the British military attach? to Beijing. A two-part BBC Panorama programme, concluding tonight, much of it based on the Sunday Herald’s previous investigations, puts Kerr squarely in the frame.

But if Fulton’s claims are correct, then Kerr, soon to be questioned by the Stevens team, was just one link in a chain of command which went all the way to the cabinet and the Prime Minister. As Fulton says: ‘Kerr was just following orders. Soldiers don’t make up the rules, they just do as they’re told.’

Fulton’s story begins in 1979. He was 19, and had just enlisted in the First Battalion Royal Irish Rangers. Kevin Fulton isn’t his real name, but a pseudonym used to protect his identity since turning whistle-blower on the activities of the British military, the RUC and the security services in Ulster’s ‘dirty war’. His work for military intelligence has been confirmed by FRU sources.

Fulton’s military file quickly found its way onto the desks of the Intelligence Corps, the regiment which includes the FRU. It made interesting reading. Here was a Catholic from Newry, in the heart of a republican strong-hold, who seemed a loyal servant of the Crown. After only a few weeks in the army, Fulton’s staff sergeant approached him. ‘I was told that some guys from military intelligence wanted to speak to me,’ Fulton says. ‘They asked me if I’d like to work for them and I said ‘no’ as I wanted to remain in uniform. They told me to think about the offer. They added that I shouldn’t tell anyone about the visit and that if I was asked I should say they were from a military welfare group. The next time we met they asked me if I’d go to Newry with them. We looked through pictures of local characters and I put names to faces, saying if they had a republican background or not.’

The two FRU officers, one of whom was Scottish, continued to try and persuade him to work with them. ‘They confessed they needed guys like me – Catholics from that part of Northern Ireland – in order to get inside the Provos,’ he says.

Fulton was still unsure, so the FRU asked him if he could help recruit a Catholic civilian in Newry who might be willing to go inside the IRA. He did. It was an old friend, who he refers to as Agent Washington. He and Fulton accompanied FRU members to the army training camp at Ballykinlar in County Down. ‘He was given weapons training. They taught him how to fire an M16, AK-47s, Remington wingmaster shotguns, Sterling sub-machine guns and a Browning 9mm,’ says Fulton. ‘Remember that this was a civilian going inside the IRA.’

Fulton finally decided he’d work with military intelligence. In 1981, he was officially given a compassionate discharge from his regiment on the fictitious grounds that his father was seriously ill. He also received papers claiming he’d been thrown out for republican sympathies – a great document to present to the IRA men he would soon befriend.

From then until 1995, Fulton remained on full army pay as he worked his way through the ranks of the IRA. He began drinking in republican bars in Dundalk and socialising with senior IRA officers, including Patrick Joseph Blair, who the Sunday Herald named this year as one of the men behind the Omagh bombing. Blair later went on to became Fulton’s ‘mentor’.

Not long after his discharge, he told one prominent IRA man that he wanted to join the organisation. He was taken to a room above a bar and confronted by a number of men in balaclavas. 'I’d told them that I’d been kicked out of the army and they started shouting at me saying ‘So you’re telling us you’d shoot your f***ing comrades if you saw them in Crossmaglen?’ I said ‘Yes, of course’.

'They started calling me a tout (republican slang for an informer) and saying they were going to shoot me. Eventually, they dragged me outside. They told me to kneel and say the Act of Contrition. I heard a huge bang behind me. It was them banging a big bit of wood on the ground to pretend to be a gunshot. They were testing me. They told me to come back when I was ready.

‘My handlers thought this was great. I offered my services to the IRA saying I’d help carry out robberies to fund them. This was all with the knowledge of my handlers in the FRU. I made pals with a prominent Sinn Fein councillor in Newry who suggested I hijack a lorry carrying TVs. I knew that this would give me credibility, so that’s what I did. I took a lorry in Belfast with about ?100,000 of TVs inside.’

Fulton was later arrested for the robbery and served a year in the Crumlin Road prison in Belfast. Because of his republican connections he was denied the usual privileges of an ODC – an ordinary decent criminal. This also gave him additional credibility with the IRA.

Fulton was released in 1986 and inducted straight into the IRA. 'My handlers told me to do anything to win their confidence. That’s what I did. My brief was that if I got into a situation where I couldn’t get to my handlers but I had to break the law, I was to try not to take a life. I was to shoot high or blow up a bomb prematurely. But that isn’t always possible. If I f***ed up all the time, then the IRA would shoot me. Don’t forget I also ran the risk of getting shot by the army and the police. I mixed explosive and I helped develop new types of bombs. I moved weapons. If you ask me, ‘Did I kill anyone?’ then I will say ‘no’. But if you ask me if the materials I handled killed anyone, then I will have to say that some of the things I helped develop did kill.

‘I reiterate, my handlers knew everything I did. I was never told not to do something that was discussed. How can you pretend to be a terrorist and not act like one? You can’t. You’ve got to do what they do. The people I was with were hard-hitters. They did a lot of murders. If I couldn’t be any good to them, then I was no use to the army either. I had to do what the man standing next to me did.’

This took an especially dark turn when Fulton became a member of the IRA’s ‘internal security squad’ – also know as the ‘torture unit’ – which interrogated and executed suspected informers. ‘I remember once when a guy had been questioned for three days in a safe-house in the Republic,’ says Fulton. ‘They eventually rolled out a sheet of plastic and decided we were going to ‘nut’ him. We drew straws to decide on who would do the shooting. Luckily, I didn’t draw the short straw.’

In 1992, Fulton told his handlers – this time in both the FRU and MI5, that his IRA mentor Blair was planning to use a horizontally-fired mortar for an attack on the police. His handlers did nothing. Within days, Blair fired the device at an armoured RUC Land Rover in Newry, in the process killing policewoman Colleen McMurray. Another RUC officer lost both his legs.

Fulton then travelled to the US and helped develop light-sensitive bombs, activated by photographic flashes, to overcome the problem of IRA remote-control devices having their detonation signal jammed by army radio units.

‘I broke the law seven days a week and my handlers knew that. They knew that I was making bombs and giving them to other members of the IRA and they did nothing about it. If everything I touched turned to shit then I would have been dead. The idea was that the only way to beat the enemy was to penetrate the enemy and be the enemy. At the time I’d no problem with this way of thinking.’

The claim that the cabinet and Thatcher knew of these types of operations is startling. Thatcher’s office has refused to comment on Fulton’s claims. It is known, though, that intelligence supplied by other British army moles inside the republican movement was being read at cabinet level. One such mole, Willie Carlin, was flown out of Northern Ireland in Thatcher’s Prime Ministerial jet in 1985 after his cover was blown. As chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee, which met weekly at Number 10, Thatcher was kept informed of FRU activities. Whether this ran to the day-to-day details of agent-handling is not known. Thatcher did grant the FRU extra funding to recruit agents in the wake of the IRA’s Remembrance Day bombing in Enniskillen.

Fulton split with both the IRA and military intelligence in the mid-1990s after a number of terrorist operations went disastrously wrong. Once his handlers told him to get a mobile phone and a car for a planned hit in 1994 on a senior RUC officer in Belfast. The IRA team was arrested on its way to carry out the murder.

Fulton believes his handlers thought he had outlived his usefulness and deliberately linked him to the operation before tipping off the police about the plan. By then, the army had secured a far more highly-placed mole within the IRA – a man still active and codenamed Stakeknife. Fulton is sure that he was compromised, so the IRA would kill him and believe they were free of informers, allowing Stakeknife to pass top-grade information to the military without risk of being detected. ‘If I was dead that would have been the end of it,’ he says. ‘There would have been no embarrassment to the army.’

From 1995 until now Fulton has been fighting the MoD – demanding they clear his criminal record, give him a new identity, a relocation package and provide a military pension. ‘If they hadn’t screwed me, then I wouldn’t be screwing them now,’ he says. ‘If the IRA ever find me I’m dead. I accept I’m a marked man, but I intend to take everyone down with me who was in on this – no matter how high up the stink goes.’

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=85346

Report: Israel Was Warned Ahead of First Blast
13:30 Jul 07, '05 / 30 Sivan 5765

(IsraelNN.com) Army Radio quoting unconfirmed reliable sources reported a short time ago that Scotland Yard had intelligence warnings of the attacks a short time before they occurred.

The Israeli Embassy in London was notified in advance, resulting in Finance Minister Binyamin Netanyahu remaining in his hotel room rather than make his way to the hotel adjacent to the site of the first explosion, a Liverpool Street train station, where he was to address and economic summit.

At present, train and bus service in London have been suspended following the series of attacks. No terrorist organization has claimed responsibility at this time.

Israeli officials stress the advanced Scotland Yard warning does not in any way indicate Israel was the target in the series of apparent terror attacks.

[quote]silencer wrote:
and no, Zap, Islam was not spread by the sword. The Muslims only took control of the governments of the other countries around them, but they did not force anyone to convert to islam, and in fact the majority of all these countries remained non-muslim for 200 years, out of contact with Muslims (except the ones living in the centers of bureaucracy) until they slowly started to convert to Islam on their own.
[/quote]

Well, let’s look at some examples.

In the Ottoman empire, Islamic armies conquered the countries around them, expelled the most troublesome religious minorites (i.e. Chaldeans), and DIDN’T GIVE RIGHTS TO NON-MUSLIMS (left that out, eh?)

So in the Ottoman Empire, for instance, you’re right, they didn’t HAVE to convert to Islam, at least at first. However, if they didn’t, they were barred from serving in many jobs, could not use many government services, faced a crippling yearly tax (the infidel tax) and were denied basic civil and human rights. Then in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the Ottomans did
in fact launch large campaigns of coerced conversion, sending in troops to areas of the non-believers (like Yugoslavia) that had largely refused the enormous pressure to convert and forcing conversion at gunpoint.

Now, let’s not argue history. Let’s keep it modern.

Some examples are just too obvious, like Saudi Arabia, where worshipping other religions besides a very specific brand of Islam is a punishable crime.

We turn to the Sudan, where the refusal to accept Sharia law, imposed by the Arab dictator in 1989, has led to the death of 2 000 000 Christians and animists during the ensuing civil war.

One of the worst cases of forced conversion to Islam is taking place in Nigeria. A brutal campaign has been waged by the Muslim minority to impose Islam and Sharia law upon the non-Muslim majority. Several Nigerian states have voted to impose Sharia law across their jurisdictions, with the predictable results for non-believers – burnt Christian churches, riots, relgious violence, and violent forced conversion. Civil war between the Muslims and the infidels coming soon to a Nigeria near you!

In the Moluccas, Indonesian troops have been tacitly allowing violent, forced conversion of thousands of Christians living in the area. The radicals responsible have made the famous comment that no church bells will ring at Christmas in the Moluccas when they are done.

In modern-day Egypt, which has an ancient and sizeable Christian minority (the Coptics), there are gangs who abduct people and force them to convert. There have been hundreds of documented cases in the last decade and more than a few riots by the Coptics, and little interference from the government.

Let’s move to Iran, whose Islamic history has been filled with both tremendous pressure to convert and centuries of outright forced conversion of all other religions. While for a while, they had the same non-violent pressure tactics (brutal infidel’s tax, witholding of civil and human rights, etc.) from non-Muslims, eventually they decided to start with the sword again. This eased during the first part of the last century, but since the Revolution the country has been governed by Sharia law. Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians are now allowed a single delegate to the religious government, among hundreds of Muslim clerics. Non-Muslims are forbidden from working for the government, and are closely monitored by the government.

So to say that Islam is really pleasant and tolerant, historically, is not supportable. You can of course, say that about other religions historically, and you would be correct. Various sects of Christianity and indeed, many religions have relied on violence to spread the Word.

But there’s a key Difference. It’s 2005, and in many countries “jihad” STILL means forceable conversion or destruction of non-believers. The last crusade wrapped up 776 years ago, the Inquisition officially threw in the towel centuries ago. The Buddhists are moaning and generally letting shit flow. The Big-time Persecutions via Guns era is over everywhere else.

This goes back to my previous post: I WONDER WHY TERRORISM HAS SUCH AN EASY TIME GROWING IN VIBRANT TOLERANT FREEDOM-FILLED GARDENS? At least Dubya has the courage to take on SOME of these guys. We won’t elect many more Dubyas, though. We’ll elect a chirac or a clinton who will make us feel really good without confronting ANY of the world’s problems.

You are comparing apples to oranges here. The overwhelming majority of these international terrorists didn’t have their families killed by a 500 pound American bomb. Most of them come from countries outside Iraq and Afghanistan. Their lives were as “unaffected” by American hostilities as any American’s was by the London bombings.

[quote]Watson2K5 wrote:

Thinking about this alone is what has made me change my mind(some) about Bush’s plan for the middle east, these dictators have to be removed, I only wish he had the same feelings about Saudi Arabia and Pakistan as he does towards Iraq and Iran.[/quote]

100% agree.

Makkun,

I’m glad to see you are alive and well. You were one of the first people I thought of.

e-hater, I deal with the threat of terrorism every day. We game plan against it every day.

What happens to our brethren in New York and England AFFECTS us all.

I’ve been to the area in London that was attacked.

Just wanted to let you know that you can kiss my ass. “It’s our fault” bullshit has no place in the discussion. al qaeda needs the Ditch.

JeffR

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
nabz wrote:
A bunch of stuff from the Koran.

The good words in the Koran are outweighed by the actions of these murderers on a day like today.

True Muslims have to unite and kick these people out. I do not see enough of this happening.

There are not enough Muslim voices against the terrorism. Muslims danced in the street after 9/11. Where was the outcry against these actions?

Your quotations were hollow words in the light of these actions. You should be making strong condemnations against those hijacking the Islam faith.

Hate is being preached in mosques and schools. Direct your energy to stopping that.

[/quote]

I can’t when people like you add to their hate. Honestly, people do speak out,just because it isn’t shown in the media doesn’t mean its not happening, just two days ago’s there was an Islam for Peace conference,where over a 180 scholars from over 44 muslim countries,were coming up with strategies how to combat it. Sure in some schools and some mosques there is hate being preached but thats in places where literacy is extremely low,as high as upto 88% of people being uneducated and mindless, the situation those Muslims are going through is similar to those in the 18th century Europe where people thought the King was divine,seriously thats how backwards they are.

These people weren’t like this,in the 50s when the major powers where decolonizing,it was thought Arab countries would do much better than their East Asian counterparts,but ever since the Six day war with Israel, people felt that their governments have been failing,and the Arab world has gone through every single western form of governance,but each time it has failed,people are angry at the west for putting them in this situation when really they should be amgry at their own rulers for the failure of society.

Now people think that some how fundamentalism is going to be the answer to all their problems when its not, they need to internalize that its not going to solve their problems, when they see another Muslim country do well, economically,places such as Dubai (which has been called the safest country in the world), because above all material prosperity overrides any other aspect of life,once people have prosperity and security it will end.

Another thing you say about Muslims and hate,and how we should unite and retaliate, thats the biggest problem most muslims aren’t united,there are 72 sects in Islam, and there isnt a central mosque to revolt against. Christianity had the Vatican which Martin Luther protested against the Vatican’s corruption and bending of religion.But Islam doesn’t have this,nor does it have a head priest to say this is wrong and this is right,any Tom Dick and Harry can become a religious authority,hell you could by making ficticious quotes and the illiterate will believe you if you bring false promises of heavens waiting for you,for betterment for your family,etc.In short I dont believe violence solves anything,it continues the cycle. If the war on terrorism is to be won, its through winning the hearts and minds of the poor, in the respective countries by bringing genuine betterment rather than a promise for one.It should be won through economics and education.Us in the west should rise above the behaviour of the terrorists rather than becoming one.

Putin bombed himself before

Secret at the heart of Putin’s rise to power
By Julius Strauss in Ryazan
(Filed: 13/03/2004)

By rights Tatyana ought not to be alive today. Along with the other residents of the red-brick housing block on Novosyolov Street in the Russian city of Ryazan, she should have died with husband and son on Sept 23, 1999.

Mr Putin: likely to remain president of Russia

At 5.30 that morning three sacks of high explosive hidden in the basement of their building were set to blow up. The explosion would have brought down the block.

“Of course we’re lucky to be here,” said Tatyana, 39, in the hallway of her building this week. She was too scared to give her surname.

“They had decided to blow up the building and we would all have died. Even today I shiver when I think about it.”

More than 240 other Russians were less fortunate. They died that autumn in a wave of bombings that destroyed three blocks of flats, two in Moscow and one in the town of Volgodonsk.

The Russian authorities were swift to lay the blame at the door of Chechen separatists. But no supporting evidence has emerged. Two men from the Caucasus were convicted of involvement after a closed trial this year, but it was widely denounced as a charade.

Instead a growing body of proof has surfaced that links the bombings, and the Ryazan incident in particular, to the FSB - the revamped KGB. Independent investigators, including several MPs, who have sought to look into the case have been intimidated, arrested or beaten.

Analysts and investigators claim that President Vladimir Putin, who was FSB chief until August of that year and subsequently prime minister, must know the truth.

Lilia Shevtsova, a senior associate with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said: “He would know not just what happened but who the suspects were. The truth will not damage him because it won’t be told until after he is gone.”

The 1999 bombings proved to be Mr Putin’s political making. He positioned himself as a strongman who would crush the Chechen rebels and restore order to the ailing country.

Riding a wave of nationalist fervour, in eight months he went from being a virtual political unknown to winning the presidency by an easy margin. Now, after winning nearly complete control over parliament in December and installing a loyal new cabinet days before tomorrow’s presidential election, Mr Putin is poised to seal another four years at Russia’s helm.

In Novosyolov Street the day before the bomb was due to detonate, residents noticed a white Lada parked with a man sitting in the back and a woman standing nervously by the front door. Then another man emerged from the cellar and the three drove away. The residents called the police who found the bomb - three sacks of hexogene, a military explosive used in the other attacks that autumn.

The railway station and airport were cordoned off and roadblocks set up. To general approval, Mr Putin announced that Russian planes had begun strafing Grozny, the Chechen capital.

That evening the bombers made a mistake. Using a public telephone one of them called a number in Moscow for instructions, saying it was impossible to leave the city undetected. An operator traced the call. The number called belonged to the FSB.

Shortly afterwards the two men were arrested. Each produced documents showing that he worked for the FSB. Later an order came down from Moscow ordering the local police release them.

The next day Nikolai Patrushev, the head of the FSB, announced that the entire thing had been a training drill to raise public awareness. The white substance was not hexogene, he said, but sugar. The residents who called the police and the telephone operator were each given a colour television to reward them for their vigilance.

For a while the controversy refused to die down. Boris Berezovsky, the exiled tycoon and a bitter enemy of Mr Putin, sponsored a film and a book about the incident but both were confiscated by Russian authorities.

A human rights activist, Veniamin Ioffe, who tried to show the film in St Petersburg was beaten up and later died.

In 2002 several liberals, including the MPs Ivan Rybakin and Sergei Yushenkov, set up a citizens’ commission to investigate the bombings.

On April 17 last year, Mr Yushenkov was shot dead outside his home. In July, another MP and commission member died mysteriously after alleged food poisoning. A third commission member was beaten unconscious in the lift of his building.

Last December, Mr Rybakin lost his seat in the State Duma. He has now all but given up on the investigation.

“The men behind this were definitely FSB employees,” he told the Telegraph. "Whether they got their orders from the very top, or were a criminal grouping inside the organisation, is impossible to say.

“Since they are guarding this so carefully I am afraid there is something really horrible there. As for Putin, its possible he didn’t know at the time. But he certainly knows the truth now, better than anyone.”

Tatyana said: “We still don’t know who is guilty. We probably never will. Life is hard here and after a while we stopped asking. I’m sorry to say it, but that’s the Russian way.”

Wait a second, I have to add the most important news of the day: chirac is with us!!!

(At least until we go after terrorists or ask for money).

Then the new york times will ask, “What happened to all the good-will?”

I am going to fly my British flag in honor of our brothers in England.

God Bless them!!!

JeffR

P.S. spain sucks.

Elk,

I agree with you, it is a shitty deal for the average Iraqi or Afghani. They have had a shitty deal for decades. We are now trying to give them a better deal by setting up schools that don’t preach hate, setting up an electrical grid, setting up water treatment, etc. Their own citizenry is trying to blow this stuff up and murder innocents all in the name of Islam.

Also remember 9/11 happened before we invaded Afghanistan or Iraq. They threw the first punch.

http://avantgo.thetimes.co.uk/services/avantgo/article/0,,1150429,00.html

Madrid Bombers Linked to Spanish Security Service

Bomb squad link in Spanish blasts

From Edward Owen in Madrid

THE man accused of supplying the dynamite used in the al-Qaeda train bombings in Madrid was in possession of the private telephone number of the head of Spain?s Civil Guard bomb squad, it emerged yesterday.

Emilio Su?rez Trashorras, who is alleged to have supplied 200kg of dynamite used in the bombs, had obtained the number of Juan Jes?s S?nchez Manzano, the head of Tedax.

The revelation has raised fresh concerns in Madrid about links between those held responsible for the March bombings, which killed 190 people, and Spain?s security services, and shortcomings in the police investigation. Se?or Su?rez Trashorras and two other men implicated in the bombings have already been identified as police informers. Other members of the group had evaded police surveillance, despite concerns within the security services about their activities and evidence of their association with al-Qaeda.

The telephone number of Se?or S?nchez Manzano was contained in a Civil Guard dossier handed to Juan del Olmo, the investigating judge, at the National Court in Madrid. The number was written on a piece of paper found in the possession of Carmen Toro, the wife of Se?or Su?rez Trashorras. Both are in custody accused of supplying dynamite used in the Madrid bombs.

.

FLASHBACK!

Times of India
March 13. 2004

NEW DELHI: Put it down to freak coincidence or the subtle imprimatur of al-Qaeda, but the devastating bomb blasts which shook Madrid on Thursday came exactly 911 days after the 9/11 terrorist strikes on the World Trade Centre.

As the death toll from Thursday’s outrages rose to 199, the Spanish authorities said they were still probing the possibility of the Basque separatist group ETA being involved.

However, a London-based Arabic newspaper al-Quds al Arabiya said on Friday that it had received a letter from a group called The Brigades of Abu Hafs al-Masri - a self-proclaimed affiliate of al-Qaeda - taking responsibility for the bombings.

Chillingly for India, the group links Kashmir to the three pet Islamist causes of Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Describing Spain as part of the ‘Crusader Alliance’ led by the US, the letter says: “Is it OK for them to kill our women, children and men in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine and Kashmir, while we should refrain from killing them?”

Spain vowed on Friday to hunt down the train bombers as all Europe waited on edge for word of whether Basque or Muslim militants were behind the attack.


Terror: 911 days after 9/11

AFP
March 12, 2004

Madrid - Spanish officials, stunned by co-ordinated bomb blasts in Madrid on Thursday that killed 192 people and wounded more than 1 400, said they were keeping their lines of investigation open after clues emerged possibly implicating Basque or Islamic militants.

The atrocity, which Spanish media and officials described as “our own September 11”, came exactly two and a half years after the attacks in New York and Washington, or 911 days, and just three days before general elections that the ruling conservative Popular Party is widely expected to win.

The carnage, carried out in four trains and three railway stations in the southeast of the capital in morning rush-hour, was the worst terror attack in Europe since the 1988 Lockerbie bombing that killed 270 people.

Spanish King Juan Carlos said in a televised address to the people after visiting survivors in one of the city’s hospitals, “A nightmare has struck showing terrorism’s cruel face.”

“Your king is suffering with all of you and shares your indignation.”

The news of possible al-Qaeda involvement sent stock markets and the US dollar plummeting.

The Dow Jones index in New York slid more than one percent, following European indices down. The dollar weakened against the euro, which went from 1.2222 dollars late on Wednesday to 1.2352 on Thursday.

[quote]jayhawk1 wrote:

Zap, look at your anger for these bombings in London which otherwise don’t affect your day to day life. You will still go to work today come home talk to your kids and wife and eat a nice dinner.

I would bet this is a similar scenario for 9/11 understandably anger producing, but not affecting your day to day life significantly.

Now put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi or Afghani who would otherwise not give two shits about America how they feel after a 500 pound bomb drops on the block or village they live in wiping out every single member of their family children, wife, mother, father!

Imagine if you were a Palestinian who at one time in his life was rounded up by Israeli intelligence and tortured or had family killed.

You are comparing apples to oranges here. The overwhelming majority of these international terrorists didn’t have their families killed by a 500 pound American bomb. Most of them come from countries outside Iraq and Afghanistan. Their lives were as “unaffected” by American hostilities as any American’s was by the London bombings. [/quote]

jayhawk, how do you know that? And if someone actually had members of his family killed by a bomb that fell out of an american airplane would he have the right to be angry?

Would he be justified to try to retaliate? And if he has no planes to drop bombs out of, is it justified to deliver them any way he can?

cream, excellent post.

To deny is Islam was spread by the sword is either ignorant or deceitful.
It is still being spread by force today. That is what is driving all of these problems.

Of course Christianity was spread by the sword too, but there is no major force trying to do this today.

AL-CIADA STRIKES AGAIN…

This is from Tim Worstall a British economic writer.

I don’t think the British spirit of resilience will be bent by the likes of these thugs.

"Many thanks for the kind words and to those who have emailed offering condolences and prayers. I have a prediction to make, that tomorrow we?ll find out whether Britons are, still, in fact, Britons. Many years ago I was working in The City and there were two events that made travel into work almost impossible.

The first was a series of storms that brought down power lines, blocked train routes and so on. Not surprisingly, the place was empty the next day. Why bother to struggle through?

The other event was an IRA bomb which caused massive damage and loss of life. Trains were disrupted, travel to work the next day was horribly difficult and yet there were more people at work than on a normal day. There was no co-ordination to this, no instructions went out, but it appeared that people were crawling off their sick beds in order to be there at work the next day, thrusting their mewling and pewling infants into the arms of anyone at all so that they could be there.

Yes, we?ll take an excuse for a day off, throw a sickie. But you threaten us, try to kill us? Kill and injure some of us?

Fuck you, sunshine.

We?ll not be having that.

No grand demonstrations, few warlike chants, a desire for revenge, of course, but the reaction of the average man and woman in the street? Yes, you?ve tried it now bugger off. We?re not scared, no, you won?t change us. Even if we are scared, you can still bugger off."

Well said!

I noticed that no one answered the questioned posed several posts ago - “Why are there no million muslim marches condemning the terrorosts.” I’ve often wondered that. If some wacko Christian group was doing the crap the Al-Quacko terrorists are doing there would be no end to the marches, religious leaders and the like condeming their actions. We get nothing from the Muslims.

With so many Muslim’s on this planet surely someone on this board must be one, so why can’t they let us know why the masses and their religious leaders are silent. Hell, we saw far more activity out of Muslims celebrating the WTC attacks than we’ve seen condeming any of the terrorist actions.

And to whoever tried to tell us that Islam has not been spread by the sword - read a history book. You know that thing called The Crusades? You probably think that was instigated by the Christians against the poor Muslims, huh? Wrong…the Muslims came to the Holy Lands and took them over by force, driving the non-Muslims out and purposefully constructing several Mosques over the old temple grounds and other Jewish holy sights. The Crusades were an attempt by Europe to reclaim the Holy Lands. And you do know that the Muslim invaders at one time had pushed as far north as France before being driven back down to the Middle East, right? No, your liberal history teacher never taught you that?

And more recently we should all remeber how respectfully the Taliban treated the ancient Budha statues in Afganistan. Oh that’s right, they were so respectful of other’s religious beliefs they blew them up.

This is a bunch of crap…this is like trying to differentiate between whether we were fighting Germany or the Nazi’s in WWII. Just like that scenario the Nazi’s were a small portion of the whole nation but unfortunately they were the shepard leading the herd, and we all know that in every group/ nation the vast majority of people are sheep following the herd. Only by recognizing that you have to replace the shepard can you win.

Unfortunately that would require super aggressive action that we don’t have the stomach for. Remove the Saudi leaders funding this crap through Mosques, remove the leaders of any nation that supports these radicals, publically call out Al-Jazeera on their support of radical propoganda, bomb the living crap out of the Suni Triangle and basically let these guys know we mean business. Stop worrying about what the “Muslim’s on the street” think about us, they need to worry what we think about them.

Anyways, this is way longer than I planned, I just get so sick of hearing any excuses for this crap. There are none, and Muslims need to start doing a better job speaking up to condemn this crap or policing themselves to prevent it in the first place. But, just like WWII, by the time we figure out that ain’t gonna happen and that we have to get more ruthless than the oposition it may be too late.

An observation: It’s really amazing that alot of T-members on the forums here are SO detailed and “broad minded” when it comes to building a better body. You make sure you are fully informed on the right eating program, trying the latest training program and exquisitely informed on supplement protocols (Is it ok to take HOT-ROX…Alpha Male…Carbolin 19 etc, while taking a piss?..breathing O2 or drinking H2O??..) yet your thinking on terrorism, the Middle East and the strategies to succeed are SO myopic!

It’s a parody that is lost on me…

Don…

JeffR,

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Makkun,

I’m glad to see you are alive and well. You were one of the first people I thought of.[/quote]

Thanks. That’s really nice.

Makkun