London Bombing

Griffindor · July 7, 2005, 12:12pm

It is a strange day today here in London. Most people tried to leave the campus as early as possible, as they tried to get home. All day you would get emails and phone calls if you were alright.

I was just in the area last night, but I’m at work and the campus is now quite calm. Some people might have to stay over night, as transport is down.

What struck me as strange, was that people were shocked, but not really surprised (and London has been used to terror attacks and bomb alerts for decades). For years now people tended to say “London will be next, because the UK is in Iraq”. And it was. We don’t know if that was the reason, but at least were I am, that tends to be the feeling.

Does that change my critical view on the “war on terror”? Do I want revenge?No, it actually cements my view: No liberal, no democrat, no conservative, no muslim, no christian can condone an act like this; and no on in their right mind does. And that goes for retalliation against any “muslim country”, or muslims in general. It might give a short-lived feeling that you are stomping out terrorism; until the next bomb hits. This is not a war you can win by bombing or invading countries - this “war on terrorism” you can only win by creating an as fair world as possible, fighting poverty, letting people decide for themselves, not supporting authoritarian regimes, and not conquering them with armies or ideas. Until we get to those conclusions, we will loose this “war on terror”, by giving in to fear and hatred.

I sat at lunch with some of my muslim and christian friends, all a bit quiet and shocked. A guy (muslim) who works here missed the blast just because he was called to work early. One of my (evangelical) christians hugged him. That’s what were supposed to do, not kill each other.

Makkun

Zap_Branigan · July 7, 2005, 12:17pm

[quote]battlelust wrote:
Zap,
I agree. I was specifically referencing the subtlety of bluey’s “Fuck Muslims.” Sure, we’re not at war with the IRA. Believe it or not, I kinda noticed that.

Without tangentially detailing the violent spread of Christianity, I will, however, say that it is unfortunate that many Americans view al-qaeda as representative of Islam.

This, as we have seen, strengthens the hand of al-qaeda. To defeat these bastards, we must show, again and again, that they are NOT Muslims and that the do NOT represent most Muslims.[/quote]

Battlelust, I don’t know bluey and I shouldn’t speak for him. I just saw an angry person responding to the bombings.

Hopefully he didn’t mean “Fuck all Muslims”. That is too easy to say and it is wrong.

It is also wrong not to recognize the deep problems with Islam. They are preaching hate in mosques and schools on a much larger scale than any of the crazy people that claim to be Christian.

The history of Christianity and other religions is full of atrocities. This does not excuse the atrocities done in the name of Islam.

Professor_X · July 7, 2005, 12:19pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Equating the attack in London which follows al-Qaedas template, has been claimed by a branch of al-Qaeda and in a time of war against al-Qaeda with the confusion that followed the bombing of OKC is a false analogy. The situation is quite different.[/quote]

It is only different because we now believe one story with regards to who was involved in the Oklahoma bombing, not for any other reason. Also, my statement was made before any news of who claimed responsibility was made…and that is the point. Don’t jump to conclusions before the facts are in. Period.

How is this deflecting the truth? I asked who sent those letters a few years ago that everyone was in fear of smallpox for. You know, the same letters that have changed the entire way some postal services sort their mail? Was that Al Qeada? I truly want to know the answer to this.

nabz · July 7, 2005, 12:28pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Leave it to the looney left to defend those guilty of these crimes.

It was claimed by “al-Qaida of Europe”, but it must have been the same guys that attacked Oklahoma City.

Pull your head out of your asses people!

This is a real war. Your opposition to the war only furthers our enemies goals.

I’m sorry, but who is defending Al qaida? Every terrorist attack from now until the end of time will not be by Al qaida. I am glad we apparently now know who is responsible, however, jumping to conclusions before facts are in is retarded. Who was responsible for those powdered letters mailed to politicians in Washington?

Professor X,

I will not apologize for my anger. We are currently at war with Islamic extremists that use terrorism as a tool to intimidate and subjugate. You are drawing false analogies to hide the truth. Just The Facts is setting up another one of his idiotic conspiracy theories. Soon he will be saying the CIA planted the bombs. This site has a number of lunatics that buy into the fantasy that the CIA and the Zionists destroyed the WTC.

Islam has been spread by the sword since its inception. If Muslims want their religion respected they must expel the extremists from the mosques and close the schools that perpetuate hate against the ?infidel.? Bluey is righteous in his anger against this religion that continually promotes this type of murder.

No not the religion just a misguided few. You seem to forget in the traditional geography of the holy lands Christianity,Islam,and Judaism have lived historically side by side, sharing the same culture, customs and traditions.

As for Islam being spread by the sword,uhmm, no,the ottoman empire never forced anyone to change,as well as the Crusades, where Saladin granted free passage for Christians for pilgrimage as it is forbidden to force Islam on anyone

some points from the quran

Islam was sent as mercy to humanity (Quran 4:79).
Do not make mischief on the earth (Quran 29:36).
People, We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes that you might know one another. The noblest of you before God is the most righteous of you. (49:13)
There are among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) upstanding nations that recite the message of God and worship throughout the night, who believe in God, who order honor and forbid dishonor and race in good works. These are the righteous. (3:113-114).
It advocates plurality and moral equality of all faiths (Quran 2:62, 5:69).
The concept of war is mentioned in the Quran only six times.

a)First, God and his messenger declare a spiritual war on the rich who make money by unproductive financial transactions (interest, currency trade, stock market speculation, derivatives). He asks creditors to give debtors time, or better yet, to forgive the debt as charity. (Quran 2:278)

b)Second, after praising Abel for not fighting back when Cain murdered him, and decreeing that killing one soul is like killing all humanity, God condemns mass murder by gangs, calling it a war against law and order. The only exceptions are killing in self defense and court ordered execution of a murderer when the victim’s family does not forgive. (Quran 5:27)

c)Third, we learn that people in certain groups will keep trying to kindle a fire of war, and God promises to put it out. (Quran 5:64 )(remind you of someone?)

d)Fourth, God condemns nations that regularly violate international treaties and start wars. He requires other nations to prepare forces of deterrence against such war starters, but commands us to make peace with them whenever they are open to it. (Quran 8:56ff)

e)Fifth, the Quran tells us that warmongers will commit mass murder and falsely blame it on Muslims in an attempt to start a war against Muslims. Fortunately, the verses tell us that such plots are fragile, built on the crumbling edge of a mud hill, bound to collapse with the plotters into Hell. (Quran 9:107ff)

f)Finally, God tells us that when war is over, the killing must stop and prisoners must be exchanged or set free. (Quran 47:4)

7.Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and in the race for a garden wide as the heavens and the earth, prepared for the righteous- (the righteous are) those who spend whether in prosperity or adversity, who restrain anger and who pardon all people. For God loves those who do good. (Quran 3:133 ?134)

8.Invite all to the way of your God with wisdom and beautiful preaching. And argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious. For your God knows best who have strayed from his path and who receive guidance. And if you do respond to an attack, respond no worse than they did. But if you show patience, that is indeed the best course. Be patient- for your patience is from God . . . Indeed, God is with those who restrain themselves and those who do good. (Quran 16:125-128)

9.O You who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be against rich or poor, for God can best protect both. Follow not the cravings of your hearts, lest you swerve, and if you distort justice or decline to do justice, verily God is well acquainted with all that you do. (Quran 4:135)

10.To those who persevere in doing good is a reward more than in measure. No darkness nor shame shall cover their faces. They are companions of the garden where they will live forever. But those who have earned evil will have a reward like evil. Humiliation will cover their faces. They will have no defender from God. (Quran 10:26-27)

11.The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree), but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from God, for God does not love those who do wrong. But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong done to them, against such there is no cause of blame. The blame is only against those who oppress men with wrongdoing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice, for such there will be a penalty grievous. (Quran 42:40-43)

[/quote]
I read countless posts on this site condemning Christianity regarding gay marriage, yet these same people (Lothario excepted) that condemn Christianity are silent about Islamic atrocities. In fact they are quick to condemn our war efforts in Afghanistan, Iraq, domestically and at Gitmo.

silencer · July 7, 2005, 12:33pm

indra, i can safely say you are one of the most ignorant people i have ever come across. what you say is obviously just parroting what other idiots have said, because there is not a bit of truth to anything you say.

nabz · July 7, 2005, 12:35pm

[quote]Griffindor wrote:
It is a strange day today here in London. Most people tried to leave the campus as early as possible, as they tried to get home. All day you would get emails and phone calls if you were alright.

I was just in the area last night, but I’m at work and the campus is now quite calm. Some people might have to stay over night, as transport is down.

What struck me as strange, was that people were shocked, but not really surprised (and London has been used to terror attacks and bomb alerts for decades). For years now people tended to say “London will be next, because the UK is in Iraq”. And it was. We don’t know if that was the reason, but at least were I am, that tends to be the feeling.

Does that change my critical view on the “war on terror”? Do I want revenge?No, it actually cements my view: No liberal, no democrat, no conservative, no muslim, no christian can condone an act like this; and no on in their right mind does. And that goes for retalliation against any “muslim country”, or muslims in general. It might give a short-lived feeling that you are stomping out terrorism; until the next bomb hits. This is not a war you can win by bombing or invading countries - this “war on terrorism” you can only win by creating an as fair world as possible, fighting poverty, letting people decide for themselves, not supporting authoritarian regimes, and not conquering them with armies or ideas. Until we get to those conclusions, we will loose this “war on terror”, by giving in to fear and hatred.

I sat at lunch with some of my muslim and christian friends, all a bit quiet and shocked. A guy (muslim) who works here missed the blast just because he was called to work early. One of my (evangelical) christians hugged him. That’s what were supposed to do, not kill each other.

Makkun[/quote]

Finally another Londoner, mate I hope you’re ok and anyone else you know, one of my mates was caught up at Edgware Road, luckily he’s fine. Its reassuring to hear these words from you mate, Im on holidays at the the moment, and I’m absolutely gutted that this happened, Im a thousand miles away, and this has happened, I feel so helpless.Again I hope that any of your families or friends were not hurt. We’ll be ok, Londoners need to be strong now.

orion · July 7, 2005, 12:41pm

bluey,

you might want to google what an alewite is.

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS · July 7, 2005, 12:41pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The history of Christianity and other religions is full of atrocities. This does not excuse the atrocities done in the name of Islam.
[/quote]
I’m not sure if the crimes committed today were done in the name of Islam or just used as a means to brainwash those involved. I personally feel those at the top use religious faith as a means to “stir the pot”. I don’t believe violence and subjugation are fundamental beliefs of any religion. Those in positions of authority have used it as a motivator of fear and compliance and I don’t think any true person of spirituality believes this is right and just behavior.

silencer · July 7, 2005, 12:46pm

and no, Zap, Islam was not spread by the sword. The Muslims only took control of the governments of the other countries around them, but they did not force anyone to convert to islam, and in fact the majority of all these countries remained non-muslim for 200 years, out of contact with Muslims (except the ones living in the centers of bureaucracy) until they slowly started to convert to Islam on their own. And in one of the most unique cases of history, when the Mongols ravaged the Islamic world, and settled there, they themselves, the conquerors, converted to Islam instead of destroying Islam or converting the Muslims. so you can see, those who live among the Muslims usually convert to Islam on their own, and no force is used.

Yes, war is acceptable in Islam under certain conditions. It is only in order to defend against oppression, when no other way is possible. There are very strict rules that no children, women, animals, or plants are harmed in war. When the oppressing enemy stops fighting, they may not be touched. Oh and a Muslim may never take his own life under any circumstances. (you can see how these terrorists broke most of these rules of combat, if not all).

Inscribed on the hilt of the Prophet’s sword:

‘Forgive him who wrongs you; join him who cuts you off; do good to him who does evil to you, and speak the truth although it be against yourself.’

you are right that the Muslim world is very wong in not standing up against these terrorists the way they should, for the Prophet said:

"Assist your brother or sister Muslim, whether he be an oppressor or an oppressed. " He was asked, “But how shall we do it when someone is an oppressor?” So he said, “Assisting an oppressor is by forbidding and withholding that person from oppression”.

And so Muslims have a duty to stop these terrorists, for the Prophet said:

“Whoever sees a wrong, and is able to put it right with his hand, let him do so; if he can’t, then with his tongue; if he can’t, then in his heart, and that is the bare minimum of faith”.

But know however that Islam is a religion of peace.
These terrorists have nothing to do with Islam. In fact, al Qaeda recently tried to kill 80,000 Muslims in Jordan. It is very clear in Islam that killing a Muslim automatically makes you a non-Muslim. Therefore these terrorists cannot be called Islamic extremists.

lt_Ben_gt · July 7, 2005, 12:49pm

Certainly a hot topic.

I’m not going to speculate about anything. Civilians die in iraq and eastern countries all the while - I feel it’s sort of blinkered to see a small amount of people die in our country and be really outraged when the exact same, intentionally or not, goes on in the east.

The most important thing is how we bounce back and how we deal with the situation - and from what I can see, it’s been dealt with very effectively.

G8 was going on, we just won the bid for Olympics 2012… whatever the reason, I hope the injured a fast recovery, and the families of the dead my sympathy.

Zap_Branigan · July 7, 2005, 1:08pm

[quote]nabz wrote:
A bunch of stuff from the Koran.

[/quote]

The good words in the Koran are outweighed by the actions of these murderers on a day like today.

True Muslims have to unite and kick these people out. I do not see enough of this happening.

There are not enough Muslim voices against the terrorism. Muslims danced in the street after 9/11. Where was the outcry against these actions?

Your quotations were hollow words in the light of these actions. You should be making strong condemnations against those hijacking the Islam faith.

Hate is being preached in mosques and schools. Direct your energy to stopping that.

Cream · July 7, 2005, 1:09pm

[quote]Griffindor wrote:

I sat at lunch with some of my muslim and christian friends, all a bit quiet and shocked. A guy (muslim) who works here missed the blast just because he was called to work early. One of my (evangelical) christians hugged him. That’s what were supposed to do, not kill each other.

Makkun[/quote]

How were you able to sit around at the table without being killed, to express your ideas freely, without one of you from the non-state-sanctioned religion being branded a second class citizen?

You have a government that derives its power from the people rather than machine guns. You have an economy that offers opportunity instead of a dollar a month. You have a societal discourse which, by and large, at least tolerates and at best offers freedom for differing viewpoints. You also have a society where the people are mostly educated in school systems which do not preach ethnic or religious hatred.

Would that conversation have been happening openly in nazi Germany or saddam’s Iraq?

Old Europe thinks we should just grin and bear it. Old Europe is not a place the world looks to for answers anymore. The saddams of Old Europe had to destroy themselves before their countries could accept freedom (with a little help).

The Old US thought stability and quiet should trump every other matter in foreign policy, and it got neither. President Bush has made the gamble that someone should play the France to the emerging U.S.'s in the Middle East. Who else is going to help them? Russia? China? the u.n.? Switzerland? Canada? democrats?

Historically blind people in our country like to say: “Well if they want freedom they should just do it themselves”, ignoring the fact that we celebrate Independence Day thanks in large part to the French. Or ignoring the difference between shooting redcoats with muskets and shooting BMP-2s with shotguns.

What President Bush has gambled on, depite being “stupid”, is the kind of long term solution that minor players like chirac, schroeder, zapatero, professor cheesecake, and shortround refuse to admit. That support of democratic governments wherever possible, because ultimately political and economic stability are best found in countries with representative government.

Given limited resources, this means first supporting governments in places where the national interest is the strongest. That means – given the War on Terror – the Middle East first, not the Central African Republic or Argentina. But it also has to include the CAR and Argentina, sooner or later.

This is bothersome to people like chirac or like professor cheesecake, who won’t admit despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary that democracy and capitalism, in one form or the other, is the ONLY way to go that we know of if you want to lessen economic misery and political violence. The President has argued that supporting emerging or suppressed freedom is not imperialism or imposition but both morally and practically neccessary. That while we may get hostile elected governments in the bargain (like modern Serbia and who knows, maybe some of the new democracies in the Middle East), their hostility will be political and not physical.

pat · July 7, 2005, 1:11pm

Aljazeera said it was the jews trying to frame muslims. Just like all the other insurgent attacks are jews trying to hurt muslims in iraq and trying to make it look like muslims did it. Also, America and it’s allies also set off a nuclear bomb in the Indian Ocean to cause the tsunami, be cause we knew it was going to kill a bunch of muslims in the world.

The muslims better start cleaning up thier own mess or they will destroy each other far better than any military intervention. Right now I only see terrorists and enablers. If islam is a religion of peace, then prove it. Right now, I find that very difficult to believe.

Zap_Branigan · July 7, 2005, 1:12pm

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The history of Christianity and other religions is full of atrocities. This does not excuse the atrocities done in the name of Islam.

I’m not sure if the crimes committed today were done in the name of Islam or just used as a means to brainwash those involved. I personally feel those at the top use religious faith as a means to “stir the pot”. I don’t believe violence and subjugation are fundamental beliefs of any religion. Those in positions of authority have used it as a motivator of fear and compliance and I don’t think any true person of spirituality believes this is right and just behavior.[/quote]

Lift, I agree with you.

I do not condemn Islam because I do not know enough about it. I do know hate is being spead in the name of Islam and it is wrong.

indra · July 7, 2005, 1:21pm

[quote]silencer wrote:
indra, i can safely say you are one of the most ignorant people i have ever come across. what you say is obviously just parroting what other idiots have said, because there is not a bit of truth to anything you say. [/quote]

I guess you don’t read much or you hide the unpleasent truth from your little mind but if you are to solve a problem you must understand all facets of it. The reality of the modern day islam is unpleasent and particularly the wahabi cult promoted by saudi arabia. Go look at amnesty international reports on these muslim countries and you will see extensive human rights abuses. Go look at the standard text books school kids learn from.
The western world has turned a blind eye to these abuses for oil/resources but now it is apparent for all that this cannot be allowed to continue.

If you cannot face the unpelasent truth that is your problem and it is you infact who are ignorant and a fool.

gawan · July 7, 2005, 1:34pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
nabz wrote:
A bunch of stuff from the Koran.

The good words in the Koran are outweighed by the actions of these murderers on a day like today.

True Muslims have to unite and kick these people out. I do not see enough of this happening.

There are not enough Muslim voices against the terrorism. Muslims danced in the street after 9/11. Where was the outcry against these actions?

Your quotations were hollow words in the light of these actions. You should be making strong condemnations against those hijacking the Islam faith.

Hate is being preached in mosques and schools. Direct your energy to stopping that.

[/quote]

Nabz and Silencer had some good points…

But I think we’re forgetting to note that alot of these more moderate Muslims, who are following those passages from the Koran that Nabz posted. Are tortured and murdered for speaking out in such places as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and pretty much every Muslim country in the world.

You are blaming Muslims for not speaking out where you should be blaming their dictators for shutting them up in the first place.

Thinking about this alone is what has made me change my mind(some) about Bush’s plan for the middle east, these dictators have to be removed, I only wish he had the same feelings about Saudi Arabia and Pakistan as he does towards Iraq and Iran.

Elkhntr1 · July 7, 2005, 1:36pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Leave it to the looney left to defend those guilty of these crimes.

It was claimed by “al-Qaida of Europe”, but it must have been the same guys that attacked Oklahoma City.

Pull your head out of your asses people!

This is a real war. Your opposition to the war only furthers our enemies goals.

I’m sorry, but who is defending Al qaida? Every terrorist attack from now until the end of time will not be by Al qaida. I am glad we apparently now know who is responsible, however, jumping to conclusions before facts are in is retarded. Who was responsible for those powdered letters mailed to politicians in Washington?

Professor X,

I will not apologize for my anger. We are currently at war with Islamic extremists that use terrorism as a tool to intimidate and subjugate. You are drawing false analogies to hide the truth. Just The Facts is setting up another one of his idiotic conspiracy theories. Soon he will be saying the CIA planted the bombs. This site has a number of lunatics that buy into the fantasy that the CIA and the Zionists destroyed the WTC.

Islam has been spread by the sword since its inception. If Muslims want their religion respected they must expel the extremists from the mosques and close the schools that perpetuate hate against the ?infidel.? Bluey is righteous in his anger against this religion that continually promotes this type of murder.

I read countless posts on this site condemning Christianity regarding gay marriage, yet these same people (Lothario excepted) that condemn Christianity are silent about Islamic atrocities. In fact they are quick to condemn our war efforts in Afghanistan, Iraq, domestically and at Gitmo.

[/quote]

Zap, look at your anger for these bombings in London which otherwise don’t affect your day to day life. You will still go to work today come home talk to your kids and wife and eat a nice dinner.

I would bet this is a similar scenario for 9/11 understandably anger producing, but not affecting your day to day life significantly.

Now put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi or Afghani who would otherwise not give two shits about America how they feel after a 500 pound bomb drops on the block or village they live in wiping out every single member of their family children, wife, mother, father!

Imagine if you were a Palestinian who at one time in his life was rounded up by Israeli intelligence and tortured or had family killed.

Do you think for poor impoverished people that don’t have tanks, fighter jets, warships, or 1000 pounds bombs, they may think we are the terrorists when are power is brought to bear on them sometimes unjustly?

I feel the terrorists are our enemy, but I also think it’s the height of arrogance and ignorance to always act so pure and virginal when were attacked as if we have never through our policies and actions hurt other peoples in this world and are partly responsible for the hatred and violence directed at us.

I also think America has been a very positive force and helped many people the world over, but to take the line that some of the right wing extremist nutjobs do is IMO irrational, immature, and does nothing to help or stop the problem… it just creates more.

Kuz · July 7, 2005, 1:41pm

Personally, after something like this happens, the last thing in the world I feel like doing is arguing about who did what on an Internet forum (even though I am incredibly upset and angry over everything that happened). I would just ask that everyone take a moment to themselves today and (if you are a spiritual/religious person) to pray for the victoms and their grieving families.

Kuz

Return with honor.

PtrDR · July 7, 2005, 1:45pm

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Leave it to the looney left to defend those guilty of these crimes.