London Bombing

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Since our freedom of speech is stronger than ever (inspite of a potential flag burning amendment) I really do not understand the point of these posters.

Is it to try to deceive the weak minds that are susceptible to this hogwash?

Is it to make the person that posts them look like an ass?

Are they generated by the real crooks in order to divert our attention?[/quote]

Our freedom of speech is stronger than ever? There has been a huge crack down on censors in the name of “values” lately. Many in government seem to be afraid to hold any opinion that even opposes the popular view because of how it may be used against them in the future as talking points. How did you come to the conclusion that we have more freedom of speech now than ever?

You mentioned a possible “flag burning amendment” but then gloss right over it. That is possibly one of the largest public offenses to freedom of speech.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Since our freedom of speech is stronger than ever (inspite of a potential flag burning amendment) I really do not understand the point of these posters.

Is it to try to deceive the weak minds that are susceptible to this hogwash?

Is it to make the person that posts them look like an ass?

Are they generated by the real crooks in order to divert our attention?

Our freedom of speech is stronger than ever? There has been a huge crack down on censors in the name of “values” lately. Many in government seem to be afraid to hold any opinion that even opposes the popular view because of how it may be used against them in the future as talking points. How did you come to the conclusion that we have more freedom of speech now than ever?

You mentioned a possible “flag burning amendment” but then gloss right over it. That is possibly one of the largest public offenses to freedom of speech.

[/quote]

With the advent of the internet freedom of speech has never been so strong.

If you consider Janet Jackson’s Nipplegate a freedom of speech issue infringement on freedom of speech you are just being silly.

I gloss over the flag burning amendment because it will never happen. It is just grandstanding.

Give me some real examples of freedom of speech being squashed. I will not accept any Howard Stern examples either. He played up that issue for publicity so he could make a big jump to satellite radio.

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
jlesk68, you keep putting these silly posters showing how our freedom of speech has been taken away.

Isn’t this kind of an oxymoron, you are using your free speech to demonstrate that you don’t have the freedom to speak.

The posters are to make people aware of what The Patiot Act will be doing to our freedoms if there is a next terror attack on U.S. soil, after all, the government says “not if, but when”…
now, this one is from a Washington DC bus stop, memories of the old Soviet Union huh?[/quote]

Have you read the Patriot Act? What specific issues do you have with it?

I have not read it, but the issues reported by the MSM are a joke. FBI looking at my library record? Please.

I understand the Patriot Act will likely be abused, much like the RICO stautes are being abused. This does not mean our government is bombing our own people.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Give me some real examples of freedom of speech being squashed. I will not accept any Howard Stern examples either. He played up that issue for publicity so he could make a big jump to satellite radio.[/quote]

Why not look at Howard Stern as an example? Why not look at the hype surrounding flag burning? Why not look at the ridiculous outrage that popped up over a millisecond flash of a nipple with no added sexual content? Why not look at the reaction to one of the “Desperate Housewives” dropping a towel on tv in front of an NFL player? Why not look at how they are cutting back on the mature content in Superbowl commercials? But freedom of speech is like never before?

The only reason the internet remains free is because it would be extremely hard to regulate. I could literally go make a web site in less than 30 seconds and say whatever I want to say. I am sure there are plans to put an end to that as well.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Give me some real examples of freedom of speech being squashed. I will not accept any Howard Stern examples either. He played up that issue for publicity so he could make a big jump to satellite radio.

Why not look at Howard Stern as an example? Why not look at the hype surrounding flag burning? Why not look at the ridiculous outrage that popped up over a millisecond flash of a nipple with no added sexual content? Why not look at the reaction to one of the “Desperate Housewives” dropping a towel on tv in front of an NFL player? Why not look at how they are cutting back on the mature content in Superbowl commercials? But freedom of speech is like never before?

The only reason the internet remains free is because it would be extremely hard to regulate. I could literally go make a web site in less than 30 seconds and say whatever I want to say. I am sure there are plans to put an end to that as well.[/quote]

The reason that none of these issues are freedom of speech issues is that there is no infringing happening.

When a religous zealot writes a letter of complaint about the MNF desperate houswife w/ TO the zealot is just using his freedom of speech.

Howard Stern playing games with the FCC is a publicity stunt. He is still on the air isn’t he.

These all relate to obsenity. We can debate the obsenity laws and we both will agree that none of these things are obsene.

Give me some real examples of free speech being squashed, people being locked up for it. If it happening I will be pissed. I just don’t see it happening.

Zap, your thinking is pretty short sited in these regards.

Just because their isn’t a law stopping you from saying what you want, doesn’t mean there isn’t pressure to make you say what you should.

You say the wrong words and the FBI will look into your library records and any other records they see fit. You’d be amazed at the low level stuff they might find on almost anyone…

It’s hard to live your life without breaking any rules. One day, when these powers are no longer new, and the people administering them no longer remember their original purpose, they will be abused and put to new purposes.

Government power always seems to increase, up until the point that the people get tired of living in a police state. Are you there now? No. Is the current administration chipping away at the foundations of freedom that you are supposed to have?

Yes. While you blindly applaud this process, your children will curse you for the fool you are since it will be too late for them to reverse the course of the nation at that point.

Freedom is about being vigilant, and it isn’t just to threats from communism, terrorism, or other external issues. It is about being vigilant in the protection of your freedoms from the tyranny of having them nibbled to death every time a justification can be found.

Roll over and play dead Zap. Don’t bother worrying about these issues at all…

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zap, your thinking is pretty short sited in these regards.

Just because their isn’t a law stopping you from saying what you want, doesn’t mean there isn’t pressure to make you say what you should.

You say the wrong words and the FBI will look into your library records and any other records they see fit. You’d be amazed at the low level stuff they might find on almost anyone…

It’s hard to live your life without breaking any rules. One day, when these powers are no longer new, and the people administering them no longer remember their original purpose, they will be abused and put to new purposes.

Government power always seems to increase, up until the point that the people get tired of living in a police state. Are you there now? No. Is the current administration chipping away at the foundations of freedom that you are supposed to have?

Yes. While you blindly applaud this process, your children will curse you for the fool you are since it will be too late for them to reverse the course of the nation at that point.

Freedom is about being vigilant, and it isn’t just to threats from communism, terrorism, or other external issues. It is about being vigilant in the protection of your freedoms from the tyranny of having them nibbled to death every time a justification can be found.

Roll over and play dead Zap. Don’t bother worrying about these issues at all…[/quote]

The government has always been able to bring enormous pressure on the individual. It is always something of which to be wary.

I have not read the Patriot Act. Please tell me which particular items are bad. There may be some, I just don’t know.

I do not believe for one second that these acts of terrorism are staged by the government so the can whip out the Patriot Act.

There seem to be 2 trains of thought that disturb me.

Some on the right call those on the left un-patriotic when they voice legitimate questions on the war. This is unfair.

Some on the left say the right is blindly sacrificing freedoms for the war on terror. This is also unfair.

My questions are legitimate, what freedoms are we sacrificing? Where in the Patriot Act are we being stripped of these freedoms? I need specifics, not silly posters and slogans.

I too share the fear of government expansion and intrusion in our lives.

I just don’t see it happening as a result of this war.

I see the far left and the far right trying to limit our freedoms far more than the Bush administration.

Zap, do a search on the Patriot Act on this forum. This has been discussed before and yes, it does bother that someone like you is so blind to the potential future consequences of continually giving the government more and more power. It seems odd to me that potential abuse is invisible to you.

TOTAL POLICE STATE TAKEOVER
The Secret Patriot Act II Destroys What Is Left of American Liberty

A Brief Analysis of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, Also Known as Patriot Act II

Congressman Ron Paul (R-Tex) told the Washington Times that no member of Congress was allowed to read the first Patriot Act that was passed by the House on October 27, 2001. The first Patriot Act was universally decried by civil libertarians and Constitutional scholars from across the political spectrum. William Safire, while writing for the New York Times, described the first Patriot Act’s powers by saying that President Bush was seizing dictatorial control.

On February 7, 2003 the Center for Public Integrity, a non-partisan public interest think-tank in DC, revealed the full text of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003. The classified document had been leaked to them by an unnamed source inside the Federal government. The document consisted of a 33-page section by section analysis of the accompanying 87-page bill.

*Note: On February 10, 2003 I discovered that not only was there a house version that had been covertly brought to Hastert, but that many provisions of the now public Patriot Act II had already been introduced as pork barrel riders on Senate Bill S. 22. Dozens of subsections and even the titles of the subsections are identical to those in the House version. This is very important because it catches the Justice Department in a bald-faced lie. The Justice Department claimed that the secret legislation brought into the House was only for study, and that at this time there was no intention to try and pass it. Now upon reading S. 22, it is clear that the leadership of the Senate is fully aware of the Patriot Act II, and have passed these riders out of their committees into the full bill. I spent two hours scanning through S. 22 and, let me tell you, it is a nightmare for anyone who loves liberty. It even contains the Our Lady of Peace Act that registers all gun owners. It bans the private sale of all firearms, creates a Federal ballistics database, and much more.

There are other bills in the Senate that grant the Federal government sweeping powers. S.45 states in section one that the office for State and local government coordination for Homeland Security will no longer just oversee, but that now local cities critical functions will be headed by a Federal director. On Tuesday, February 11th, we noted a story in The Times-Picayune with the headline: Nagin announces major overhaul of City Hall --New Homeland Security office to oversee cops, firemen, emergency agency. The Federal power-grab taking place is widespread and all Americans must mobilize to resist it.

Another interesting bill is S. 16. S. 16 is a smorgasbord of Federal funding and control over local police departments and needs to be examined closely.

S. 89, The Universal National Service Act of 2003 is the hallmark of an authoritarian society. The description of the bill is, “To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.” We have looked at some of the programs that the Federal government has already been setting up for service here in the “homeland” and they include East German-style tattletale squads of every type, which are just basically a super TIPS program. The nightmare goes on and on. Check it out for yourself.

The Patriot Act II bill itself is stamped “Confidential -Not for Distribution.” Upon reading the analysis and bill, I was stunned by the scientifically crafted tyranny contained in the legislation. The Justice Department Office of Legislative Affairs admits that they had indeed covertly transmitted a copy of the legislation to Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert, (R-Il) and the Vice President of the United States, Dick Cheney as well as the executive heads of federal law enforcement agencies.

It is important to note that no member of Congress was allowed to see the first Patriot Act before its passage, and that no debate was tolerate by the House and Senate leadership. The intentions of the White House and Speaker Hastert concerning Patriot Act II appear to be a carbon copy replay of the events that led to the unprecedented passage of the first Patriot Act.

There are two glaring areas that need to be looked at concerning this new legislation:

  1. The secretive tactics being used by the White House and Speaker Hastert to keep even the existence of this legislation secret would be more at home in Communist China than in the United States. The fact that Dick Cheney publicly managed the steamroller passage of the first Patriot Act, insuring that no one was allowed to read it and publicly threatening members of Congress that if they didn?t vote in favor of it that they would be blamed for the next terrorist attack, is by the White House?s own definition terrorism. The move to clandestinely craft and then bully passage of any legislation by the Executive Branch is clearly an impeachable offence.

  2. The second Patriot Act is a mirror image of powers that Julius Caesar and Adolf Hitler gave themselves. Whereas the First Patriot Act only gutted the First, Third, Fourth and Fifth Amendments, and seriously damaged the Seventh and the Tenth, the Second Patriot Act reorganizes the entire Federal government as well as many areas of state government under the dictatorial control of the Justice Department, the Office of Homeland Security and the FEMA NORTHCOM military command. The Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, also known as the Second Patriot Act is by its very structure the definition of dictatorship.

I challenge all Americans to study the new Patriot Act and to compare it to the Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence. Ninety percent of the act has nothing to do with terrorism and is instead a giant Federal power-grab with tentacles reaching into every facet of our society. It strips American citizens of all of their rights and grants the government and its private agents total immunity.

Here is a quick thumbnail sketch of just some of the draconian measures encapsulated within this tyrannical legislation:

SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration?s ?enemy combatant? definition to all American citizens who ?may? have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is ?any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.?) Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn?t broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.

Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person ?had inferred from conduct? that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the ?enemy combatant? terrorist designation.

SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.

SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of ?suspected terrorists? and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as ?terrorist.? These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.

SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.

SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the ?enemy combatant? designation.

SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.

SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.

SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.

SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contemp charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.

SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: ?this is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever.?

SECTION 111 expands the definition of the ?enemy combatant? designation.

SECTION 122 restates the government?s newly announced power of ?surveillance without a court order.?

SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, ?thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime.?

*Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.

SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to totally break down any and all walls of privacy.

The government states that they must look at everything to ?determine? if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.

SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners? and medical examiners? operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton?s special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.

SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.

SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistleblower protection for Federal agents.

SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.

SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.

SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to ?stop other unlawful activities.? It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.

SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.

SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures ? has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.

SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.

SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.

SECTION 402 is titled ?Providing Material Support to Terrorism.? The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.

SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.

SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or ?other criminals? to use encryption in the commission of a crime.

SECTION 408 creates ?lifetime parole? (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.

SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.

SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.

SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.

SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities.

There are many other sections that I did not cover in the interest of time. The American people were shocked by the despotic nature of the first Patriot Act. The second Patriot Act dwarfs all police state legislation in modern world history.

Usually, corrupt governments allow their citizens lots of wonderful rights on paper, while carrying out their jackbooted oppression covertly. From snatch and grab operations to warantless searches, Patriot Act II is an Adolf Hitler wish list.

You can understand why President Bush, Dick Cheney and Dennis Hastert want to keep this legislation secret not just from Congress, but the American people as well. Bill Allison, Managing Editor of the Center for Public Integrity, the group that broke this story, stated on my radio show that it was obvious that they were just waiting for another terrorist attack to opportunistically get this new bill through. He then shocked me with an insightful comment about how the Federal government was crafting this so that they could go after the American people in general. He also agreed that the FBI has been quietly demonizing patriots and Christians and ?those who carry around pocket Constitutions.?

I have produced two documentary films and written a book about what really happened on September 11th. The bottom line is this: the military-industrial complex carried the attacks out as a pretext for control. Anyone who doubts this just hasn?t looked at the mountains of hard evidence.

Of course, the current group of white collar criminals in the White House might not care that we?re finding out the details of their next phase. Because, after all, when smallpox gets released, or more buildings start blowing up, the President can stand up there at his lectern suppressing a smirk, squeeze out a tear or two, and tell us that ?See I was right. I had to take away your rights to keep you safe. And now it?s your fault that all of these children are dead.? From that point on, anyone who criticizes tyranny will be shouted down by the paid talking head government mouthpieces in the mainstream media.

You have to admit, it?s a beautiful script. Unfortunately, it?s being played out in the real world. If we don?t get the word out that government is using terror to control our lives while doing nothing to stop the terrorists, we will deserve what we get - tyranny. But our children won?t deserve it.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap, do a search on the Patriot Act on this forum. This has been discussed before and yes, it does bother that someone like you is so blind to the potential future consequences of continually giving the government more and more power. It seems odd to me that potential abuse is invisible to you.[/quote]

I think the Patriot Act in its own right is a necessary and powerful tool. However, this is a piece of policy that we as citizens have to be extremely vigilant about. Those on the left (and some of us more centrist conservatives) can see the potential abuse of the Patriot Act and how it could serverely damage our civil rights.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap, do a search on the Patriot Act on this forum. This has been discussed before and yes, it does bother that someone like you is so blind to the potential future consequences of continually giving the government more and more power. It seems odd to me that potential abuse is invisible to you.[/quote]

Professor, You are another one that doesn’t even read what others write. You just want to grandstand.

I understand the implications of giving the government extra power. I don’t like it. It will be abused as the RICO statutes have been abused.

I am not blind to it. Are you blind to reading what is posted?

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
TOTAL POLICE STATE TAKEOVER
The Secret Patriot Act II Destroys What Is Left of American Liberty

A Brief Analysis of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, Also Known as Patriot Act II

Congressman Ron Paul (R-Tex) told the Washington Times that no member of Congress was allowed to read the first Patriot Act that was passed by the House on October 27, 2001. The first Patriot Act was universally decried by civil libertarians and Constitutional scholars from across the political spectrum. William Safire, while writing for the New York Times, described the first Patriot Act’s powers by saying that President Bush was seizing dictatorial control.

On February 7, 2003 the Center for Public Integrity, a non-partisan public interest think-tank in DC, revealed the full text of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003. The classified document had been leaked to them by an unnamed source inside the Federal government. The document consisted of a 33-page section by section analysis of the accompanying 87-page bill.

*Note: On February 10, 2003 I discovered that not only was there a house version that had been covertly brought to Hastert, but that many provisions of the now public Patriot Act II had already been introduced as pork barrel riders on Senate Bill S. 22. Dozens of subsections and even the titles of the subsections are identical to those in the House version. This is very important because it catches the Justice Department in a bald-faced lie. The Justice Department claimed that the secret legislation brought into the House was only for study, and that at this time there was no intention to try and pass it. Now upon reading S. 22, it is clear that the leadership of the Senate is fully aware of the Patriot Act II, and have passed these riders out of their committees into the full bill. I spent two hours scanning through S. 22 and, let me tell you, it is a nightmare for anyone who loves liberty. It even contains the Our Lady of Peace Act that registers all gun owners. It bans the private sale of all firearms, creates a Federal ballistics database, and much more.

There are other bills in the Senate that grant the Federal government sweeping powers. S.45 states in section one that the office for State and local government coordination for Homeland Security will no longer just oversee, but that now local cities critical functions will be headed by a Federal director. On Tuesday, February 11th, we noted a story in The Times-Picayune with the headline: Nagin announces major overhaul of City Hall --New Homeland Security office to oversee cops, firemen, emergency agency. The Federal power-grab taking place is widespread and all Americans must mobilize to resist it.

Another interesting bill is S. 16. S. 16 is a smorgasbord of Federal funding and control over local police departments and needs to be examined closely.

S. 89, The Universal National Service Act of 2003 is the hallmark of an authoritarian society. The description of the bill is, “To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.” We have looked at some of the programs that the Federal government has already been setting up for service here in the “homeland” and they include East German-style tattletale squads of every type, which are just basically a super TIPS program. The nightmare goes on and on. Check it out for yourself.

The Patriot Act II bill itself is stamped “Confidential -Not for Distribution.” Upon reading the analysis and bill, I was stunned by the scientifically crafted tyranny contained in the legislation. The Justice Department Office of Legislative Affairs admits that they had indeed covertly transmitted a copy of the legislation to Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert, (R-Il) and the Vice President of the United States, Dick Cheney as well as the executive heads of federal law enforcement agencies.

It is important to note that no member of Congress was allowed to see the first Patriot Act before its passage, and that no debate was tolerate by the House and Senate leadership. The intentions of the White House and Speaker Hastert concerning Patriot Act II appear to be a carbon copy replay of the events that led to the unprecedented passage of the first Patriot Act.

There are two glaring areas that need to be looked at concerning this new legislation:

  1. The secretive tactics being used by the White House and Speaker Hastert to keep even the existence of this legislation secret would be more at home in Communist China than in the United States. The fact that Dick Cheney publicly managed the steamroller passage of the first Patriot Act, insuring that no one was allowed to read it and publicly threatening members of Congress that if they didn?t vote in favor of it that they would be blamed for the next terrorist attack, is by the White House?s own definition terrorism. The move to clandestinely craft and then bully passage of any legislation by the Executive Branch is clearly an impeachable offence.

  2. The second Patriot Act is a mirror image of powers that Julius Caesar and Adolf Hitler gave themselves. Whereas the First Patriot Act only gutted the First, Third, Fourth and Fifth Amendments, and seriously damaged the Seventh and the Tenth, the Second Patriot Act reorganizes the entire Federal government as well as many areas of state government under the dictatorial control of the Justice Department, the Office of Homeland Security and the FEMA NORTHCOM military command. The Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, also known as the Second Patriot Act is by its very structure the definition of dictatorship.

I challenge all Americans to study the new Patriot Act and to compare it to the Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence. Ninety percent of the act has nothing to do with terrorism and is instead a giant Federal power-grab with tentacles reaching into every facet of our society. It strips American citizens of all of their rights and grants the government and its private agents total immunity.

Here is a quick thumbnail sketch of just some of the draconian measures encapsulated within this tyrannical legislation:

SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration?s ?enemy combatant? definition to all American citizens who ?may? have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is ?any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.?) Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn?t broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.

Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person ?had inferred from conduct? that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the ?enemy combatant? terrorist designation.

SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.

SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of ?suspected terrorists? and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as ?terrorist.? These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.

SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.

SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the ?enemy combatant? designation.

SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.

SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.

SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.

SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contemp charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.

SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: ?this is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever.?

SECTION 111 expands the definition of the ?enemy combatant? designation.

SECTION 122 restates the government?s newly announced power of ?surveillance without a court order.?

SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, ?thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime.?

*Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.

SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to totally break down any and all walls of privacy.

The government states that they must look at everything to ?determine? if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.

SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners? and medical examiners? operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton?s special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.

SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.

SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistleblower protection for Federal agents.

SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.

SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.

SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to ?stop other unlawful activities.? It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.

SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.

SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures ? has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.

SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.

SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.

SECTION 402 is titled ?Providing Material Support to Terrorism.? The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.

SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.

SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or ?other criminals? to use encryption in the commission of a crime.

SECTION 408 creates ?lifetime parole? (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.

SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.

SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.

SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.

SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities.

There are many other sections that I did not cover in the interest of time. The American people were shocked by the despotic nature of the first Patriot Act. The second Patriot Act dwarfs all police state legislation in modern world history.

Usually, corrupt governments allow their citizens lots of wonderful rights on paper, while carrying out their jackbooted oppression covertly. From snatch and grab operations to warantless searches, Patriot Act II is an Adolf Hitler wish list.

You can understand why President Bush, Dick Cheney and Dennis Hastert want to keep this legislation secret not just from Congress, but the American people as well. Bill Allison, Managing Editor of the Center for Public Integrity, the group that broke this story, stated on my radio show that it was obvious that they were just waiting for another terrorist attack to opportunistically get this new bill through. He then shocked me with an insightful comment about how the Federal government was crafting this so that they could go after the American people in general. He also agreed that the FBI has been quietly demonizing patriots and Christians and ?those who carry around pocket Constitutions.?

I have produced two documentary films and written a book about what really happened on September 11th. The bottom line is this: the military-industrial complex carried the attacks out as a pretext for control. Anyone who doubts this just hasn?t looked at the mountains of hard evidence.

Of course, the current group of white collar criminals in the White House might not care that we?re finding out the details of their next phase. Because, after all, when smallpox gets released, or more buildings start blowing up, the President can stand up there at his lectern suppressing a smirk, squeeze out a tear or two, and tell us that ?See I was right. I had to take away your rights to keep you safe. And now it?s your fault that all of these children are dead.? From that point on, anyone who criticizes tyranny will be shouted down by the paid talking head government mouthpieces in the mainstream media.

You have to admit, it?s a beautiful script. Unfortunately, it?s being played out in the real world. If we don?t get the word out that government is using terror to control our lives while doing nothing to stop the terrorists, we will deserve what we get - tyranny. But our children won?t deserve it.[/quote]

I went to the Senates website to check out your post.

Senate Bill 22 is not available yet so I cannot comment.

You are way off on the others you referenced.

Senate Bill 45 To amend the Controlled Substances Act to lift the patient limitation on prescribing drug addiction treatments by medical practitioners in group practices, and for other purposes. (Introduced in Senate)

Senate Bill 16 Affordable Health Care Act (Introduced in Senate)

If you cannot even get the bill numbers correct, how can we take you seriously?

Zap,

I’m not sure which search function you were using to search for the bills, but the one that I used, THOMAS, turns up the bills exactly as outlined in jlesk68’s post.

http://thomas.loc.gov/bss/d108query.html

Cheers,

Soup

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Zap, do a search on the Patriot Act on this forum. This has been discussed before and yes, it does bother that someone like you is so blind to the potential future consequences of continually giving the government more and more power. It seems odd to me that potential abuse is invisible to you.

Professor, You are another one that doesn’t even read what others write. You just want to grandstand.

I understand the implications of giving the government extra power. I don’t like it. It will be abused as the RICO statutes have been abused.

I am not blind to it. Are you blind to reading what is posted? [/quote]

Grandstanding? I have actually done that the least in this thread. You act as if none of the “censorship issues” of the past year or two matter in terms of stifling public opinion or free speech. You act as if you don’t understand how this “either with us or against us” mentality sould stifle opinons in Washington due to fear of political suicide. You act as if the potential future abuse of the Patriot Act isn’t justification enough for us to reconsider just how much power we are giving the government.

What do you think will happen if there is another major attack on US soil? I already posted the link where experts are saying it is inevitable and could occur very soon over the next few weeks. Do you think that this will promote the government to push for even more power? Do we continue on this path until we become a police state out of pure fear for who may be a terrorist? Do you not see the destruction of what this country used to stand for if that occurs?

You talked about the other poster’s pictures that he threw up. Why? Do you not understand the point? It is the same point I just made here.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
vroom wrote:
Zap, obviously you are not interpreting the intent of the posters accurately… is that on purpose?

Since our freedom of speech is stronger than ever (inspite of a potential flag burning amendment) I really do not understand the point of these posters.

Is it to try to deceive the weak minds that are susceptible to this hogwash?

Is it to make the person that posts them look like an ass?

Are they generated by the real crooks in order to divert our attention?[/quote]

  1. Yes
  2. Yes
  3. Possibly but that wouldn’t stop
    the tru believers from posting
    them.

Here are a couple of excerpts from articles criticizing violence against Muslims in the wake of the London bombings.

It appears, thankfully, that Islam, is speaking out against the terrorists. The snippet from Sapin is particularly good news. An individual that speaks out agains them is an instant target. A million is a movement.

Begin:
Then there’s Spain, where there are Muslims who’ve issued a Fatwa against Osama Bin Laden:

"The ruling by the Islamic Commission of Spain, the main body representing the nation’s one million Muslims, came on the eve of the first anniversary of the Madrid train bombings, which were linked to the al-Qa’eda network.

The fatwa said that, in accordance with the Koran, “the terrorist acts of Osama bin Laden and his organisation al-Qa’eda… are totally banned and must be roundly condemned as part of Islam.”

Then, let’s look to Afghanistan where a wounded SEAL was taken in by a Muslim village:

"After taking the SEAL to Sabari-Minah, Gulab called a village council and explained that the American needed protection from Taliban hunters. It was the SEAL’s good fortune that the villagers were Pashtun, who are honor-bound never to refuse sanctuary to a stranger. By then, said Gulab, “the American understood that we were trying to save him, and he relaxed a bit.”

The Taliban was not so agreeable. That night the fighters sent a message to the villagers: “We want this infidel.” A firm reply from the village chief, Shinah, shot back. “The American is our guest, and we won’t give him up as long as there’s a man or a woman left alive in our village.”

How about the Muslims in Kuwait who’re sick and tired of their Imams running down America?

“The Al-Siyasah newspaper has received news that several mosques in Kuwait have begun to exhibit a new phenomenon manifested in the rejection by worshippers of extremist prayers expressed by some of the Imams during their Khutbah [friday prayer]. These prayers included invitations to fight the Americans and to become more hostile towards them. An example of this [phenomenon] was when Nabil al-Awadi, who is an Imam at one of the mosques in the southern region of Al-Surrah, began preaching against the Americans in his last Friday Khutbah. As a result, the people at prayer cut off his speech and demanded that he stop talking. Additionally, the worshippers at the mosque of Aisha Shabib in the Al-Jabiriyah neighborhood shouted, ‘O’ Allah, make Islam and America stronger’ in response to what the Imam of that mosque had said during friday prayer about America and the current war [in Iraq].”

End

Dr. Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991

“Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order [referring to the 1991 LA Riot]. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond [i.e., an “extraterrestrial” invasion], whether real or promulgated [emphasis mine], that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government.”

Aldous Huxley, Tavistock Group, California Medical School, 1961

“There will be in the next generation or so a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude and producing dictatorship without tears so to speak. Producing a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them, but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda, or brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods. And this seems to be the final revolution.”

The funny thing is, there are no guarantees. You trade in all your freedoms willingly, and you still don’t know if and when you will be safe.

Howabout doing other things? Howabout spending money on borders, staffing and training?

No no, lets not do that. We only have money for armed conflict…

Lose the all or nothing mentality. As some of you had said with respect to OTHER social welfare programs (which the fight on terrorism is, in a way… it protects all citizens against a potential danger) … bad things happen, it is a risk we all take.

Imagine if the war on terror was instead a war on unemployment. It would be decried as a big waste of money that protects people that don’t deserve protection anyway.

Anyway, just a different way of looking at it, don’t go getting your nose all out of joint. The job of the government is to take reasonable steps to protect its populace, not to do everything possible to stop risks to its populace. There is a significant difference.

http://espn.go.com/outdoors/conservation/news/2003/1027/1648110.html

Texas fish on Prozac pose a problem
By Jon Herskovitz
Reuters

DALLAS ? What could be more peaceful, more restful or more relaxing than dropping a line into a quiet Texas lake and trying to hook a fish that is on Prozac.

According to a study by a Baylor University toxicologist, fluoxetine ? the active ingredient in the antidepressant Prozac ? is making its way to a lake in the Dallas area and into the tissue of the freshwater bluegill fish.

Bryan Brooks, an assistant professor of environmental studies at Baylor said the fluoxetine most likely made its way through a waste water treatment plant and into a river that feeds into Lake Lewisville, northwest of Dallas.

Brooks will present his findings next month at a conference of the Geological Society of America in Seattle.

While he has been asked several times about whether fish on Prozac find pleasure in floating aimlessly and no pain when hooked by a fisherman, Brooks said the most important part of his findings are that some pharmaceuticals can make their way through water treatment plants and back into waterways.

Brooks said the fluoxetine, and a metabolized compound similar to it, most likely made their way into the water systems from the urine of users or through people flushing Prozac down the toilet. The waste water facility was not equipped to remove the compounds, which then made their way into the bluegills, and perhaps other aquatic life.

“If we release something in the environment, we need to understand what will happen to it,” Brooks said.

Brooks said his findings lead to a bevy of other questions such as how many pharmaceuticals can escape water treatment, can these chemicals harm the water supply, how wide-spread is the problem and what are the long-term health effects caused by these pharmaceuticals on aquatic life and humans.

But, unfortunately, the nonscientific community seems to be more interested in the idea of fish on Prozac.

Brooks said the exposure of the fish to fluoxetine is below therapeutic levels. He is studying how current exposure might affect the ability of the fish to find food, fight off predators and find a mate.

And if the bluegills were exposed to enough of the antidepressant, the drug would likely have similar effects in the fish that it does in humans.

“They would be happy fish,” Brooks said.