London Bombing

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
263

[quote]rainjack wrote:
JohnGullick wrote:
Arabs, particularly Muslim ones. By definition a race war must have several races in too.

Two races, one on each side. Not multiple like you have in the WOT. What about the Afghans? Hardly Arab. More closely linked to the Indians and the Pakistanis. Iraq is almost a melting pot of sorts. It would be hard to single out the race we wanted to exterminate there were we actually doing such.[/quote]

I was refering to race in the context Samuel Huntington layed out in his essay then book ‘The Clash of Civilizations’. Fair cop, I should’ve clarified.

[quote]Did you hear Tony Blair say that the London bomb could not have been prevented? I guess the reasoning is that the terror cells are often too small to be picked up. Well I hope the soldiers can do the job the dedacated intelligence community.

On the one hand, you have said that the terrorists are crude and uneducated. Now you are saying that they are too wiley for our troops to hunt down and kill.[/quote]

I never said they were crude and uneducated. I said the equipment to make a bomb was rudimentory.

Really?

Christ, this is like banging my head against a brick wall. I said over and over I’m not for appeasing terrorists! That’s the term you want to use. The odds are in favour of them however, you are right, therefore we need to minimise our risk. Yes we need good intelligence and proactive police forces, but equally we need to give them no excuse to hate us. The true radicals will still hate us, and thats where the intelligence community must do its work, for the rest, we must not give them the excuse to turn to radicalism.

[quote]How about not invading countries for oil rather than you pedantic suggestions? How about not killing 150,000 civilians etc.

It’s not pedantic - it’s being absurd to make a point. Prove that the Coalition has killed 150,000 civilians. Prove that the glorious mercinaries that are working for Al Qaeda has not had a hand n any civilian death.

If we were invading for oil, as yuou charge, why is gas higher now than it’s ever been? You’d think I’d be paying half of what I am currently if we were there for oil.

If you want to be against the WOT, fine. But don’t start throwing worn out peacenik talking points around to try and prove your position. Especially ones that have been debunked countless times.[/quote]

Here is a New Scientist article about the civilian death toll in Iraq: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6596. I never said Al Queda weren’t behind civilian deaths, thats absured because we both know they killed 2000 people in 9/11. They have also killed plenty of Iraqis, but equally many Iraqis have now turned to them as being the only answer to their troubles they can see. Why have oil prices gone up? Well ask American energy companies! I thought it was fairly common knowledge that oil resverves were being conserved as a finite resources ad therefore prices had krept up. Equally until recently the Saudis had not been enourmously cooperative with their production, hence America wants the second largest oil field in the world in ther pocket. Its not rocket science. Show me where the oil argument for war has been debunked in a non-partisan, peer reviewed article or book. One last thing: The war on terror, or WOT, as you call it with quaint fammiliarity, is simply a Bush construct to allow spiralling defence budgets. In reality there has always been a war on terrorists, hence Libya was bombed in the eighties. Hence the British army in Northern Ireland. Christ, do you think terrorism is new?!

264

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
JohnGullick wrote:

They were not unprovoked. Just because W. said the world changed after 9/11 does not mean it did. The West has been stepping on toes for hundreds of years. It was the British empire up until WWI and then the US was quite overt in taking up the mantel of London’s power. Even the French (i.e. about as Western as you can get) have fire bombed MacDonalds due to a percieved cultural threat. Even I feel incredibly encroched upon by US culture sometimes. Hollywood for instance is the main export from the US. It is renowned throughout the world for stifling local films. Even Bollywood can not compete with the ‘incentives’ offered by the likes of Disney and MGM (eg the ‘train’ system whereby to purchase a major film you must also purchase and show a series of smaller pictures, crowding out local films). Television shows come with simmilar stipulations. Now this may all sound trivial but think about if the majority of the popular culture you consumed was Islamic; not even in your native tongue; not preaching the values you believe in. Would you not feel threatened? For those who think ‘thats crap, pop. cultures not that powerful’ I refer you to the work ‘American Dream, Global Nightmare’ by Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies for an overview. I’ll also let you marinate on the statistic that Hollywood produces only 10% of the world’s films yet 75% of box office earnings go there. That is how much the world is exposed to American values and ultimately metanarative. Even Europeans feel threatened so no wonder areas with more inflexible belief systems are even more so. Hollywood is just one example, when you factor in all the US corporations, US TV shows and myriad military installations around the world you can see the provocation has been going on for years, whether percived by the American public or not. The fact that the 9/11 attack was struck at such a symbolic target should suggest this anyway. The subsequent invasions of Afganistan and Iraq simply add insult to the injuries caused prior to 2001. UN double standards with regards to Israel do not help either. No, backing down is not always the answer, but how can the military in Iraq stop ‘terrorists’? ‘Terrorism’ is a concept, therefore is needs to be fought with a concept: the idea that Westerners do not deserve to die, hence we must behave well.

You are actually justifying the murder of innocents because Hollywood makes shitty movies? Your mind is truly warped JohnGullick.[/quote]

Heh heh, yup, that’s it!

265

[quote]Watson2K5 wrote:
A suicide bomber just killed 24 people in Iraq.

How come no one starts posts like this for the hundreds of innocent Iraqi’s who were killed?[/quote]

Because they weren’t white. Acutally I’m now in a consilitory mood. People here have been argueing that the terrorists are crazed dogs driven by fundamentalist ideologies who hate our cultures. They are right to an extent. I have been argueing that the foreign policies of the West give people reason to join these fudamental movements and give the movements themselves extra ideological ammunition. I believe I am right also. The reality is we have an anti-Western fire with the Jihadists, but the flames are being fanned by the foreign policies of Western nations. With an enemy that is all but uncatchable I feel the main job of the so called ‘war on terror’ should be to heal rifts between the West and Muslim communities to prevent people turning to fundamentalist Islam for a voice using violence. Will crack-pots who bomb still exist? Yes, but at least we will have prevented the normally sane from becoming terrorists. Those remaining insane are a job for the intelligence communities. Unfortunately we also have to accept we must live under the shadow of threat because the intelligence will fail now and again. What we can’t allow is our civil liberties to be eroded because of this.
Once again my main point: good relations with Islam and a responsible foreign policy will prevent the normally sane from turning to extremeism for a voice.

266

Terrorism continues because the enemy has hope. Their faith gives them much of this hope. The rest comes from the hope given to them by the European Cosmopolitan Elite, appeasers, apologists around the world and those in the middle east to afraid to speak up.

Most non psycpaths don’t believe in murder as an acceptable or understandable activity. The MSM continues to call these murderers “insurgents” and “freedom fighters” and say they cannot be defeated. This gives them hope. Hundreds are killed every month and more and more, particularly in Iraq they are turned in by their own people.

Iraqi’s and others around the world don’t want to live in a fundamentalist world any more then we do. The difference is they live in fear of speaking up. They are starting to throw off that fear. When the terrs occupy a town in Iraq they take away the residents cell phones. DO you know why? The Iraqi’s use them to call the US and Iraqi police and report on the terrs. They don’t like them either.

FYI- Oil prices have risen due to increased demand from China and India and a percieved threat to supply due to the interuption of supply thru the Gulf. Actual reserves increase each year, although at a decreasing rate. Peer reviewed? Well you could reads an oil industry trade journal written by people in the Oil business. Might have a little more realistic view of the world’s oil then a reporter or grad student researcher.

267

I want to expand upon a point in Hedo’s excellent post.

Imagine a world in which 99% (there will always be the 1% johnguillicks) were 100% determined to destroy terrorists. I mean destroy it not only in reality but in concept. Every terrorist killed or captured. Anyone who signs up for a remotely terrorist activity immediately scooped up and thrown into jail. The jacqueschirac’s of the world contributing mightly to advertising in Iraq showing the death of terrorists.

Think about it. A real determined world effort to destroy this menace.

Taking the gloves off and not whining about air conditioning in Gitmo.

Imagine if the terrorists got on the internet and saw a United World (- the looney johnguillicks of course). No cutting and running. No moaning and hand wringing. Just a steely eyed determination to squeeze the pus out of this disgusting phenomena.

I forsee an immediate end to this concept in practice.

JeffR

268

It wasn’t out of context at all. You said the US doesn’t operate in the shadows. I’m suggesting that the US does plenty of things that don’t involve a visible military presence.

The rest of the stuff you are whining about is just me being careful not to say something inappropriate so I can be slammed for something I’m not saying… so give it a rest already.

As for the personal insults, grow the fuck up and act your age for a change.

269

Jerffy,

What you fail to realize is that idealogy is not determined by the nature of the reception of that ideology.

You think like a child. You talk like a child. You are a child.

270

Jeffr-This is exactly right on.

I also believe our media and their alarmist, oh shit, etc style forces them to put out the alarm, and so many weak minds take the bait, believe and run with it. We do ourselves no favors by talking negatively about our efforts, our troops and leaders efforts and their tasks.

The world did change after 9-11…for Americans. Hell Israel got to say…Ha I told you so. As terror spreads I think people will better understand American policy. I think England better understands this now given recent events. Our policy on terror is bruttally clear and that’s what the granola HR crowd hates so much.

271

[quote]vroom wrote:
Jerffy,

What you fail to realize is that idealogy is not determined by the nature of the reception of that ideology.

You think like a child. You talk like a child. You are a child.[/quote]

That is very childish Vroom.

272

[quote]JohnGullick wrote:
Watson2K5 wrote:
A suicide bomber just killed 24 people in Iraq.

How come no one starts posts like this for the hundreds of innocent Iraqi’s who were killed?

Because they weren’t white. [/qquote]

Just kill yourself now. That’s the only way we could ever close your mind further.

We READ about them every day! Why ever post the topic? The Libs and Lib Media regress to the topic all the time, so it’s covered plenty.

273

[quote]vroom wrote:
It wasn’t out of context at all. You said the US doesn’t operate in the shadows. I’m suggesting that the US does plenty of things that don’t involve a visible military presence.[/quote]

I was referring to the military, which is what was being discussed. Reading AND understanding is key if you don’t want to look like a comlplete idiot.

The problem with most of your political forum posts is that you rarely say anything except, “maybe we should all sit down and think about how evil the U.S. is”

Vroom - I said nothing personal. It’s what you do. It’s what you always do. Is me saying that the sky is blue, or that water is wet a personal insult? Me commenting on what you do is not much different than that.

I find it quite comical that you cuss me and then have the gall to tell me to grow up. That’s classic.

274

[quote]vroom wrote:
Jerffy,

What you fail to realize is that idealogy is not determined by the nature of the reception of that ideology.

You think like a child. You talk like a child. You are a child.[/quote]

Dang vroom - I’m seeing a common thread in this morning’s posting. Is everyone that dares disagree with you now a child? Is that the best retort you have?

If that’s the best you can manage, you are in for a very long day should you choose to continue with these idiotic and - yes - childish posts.

275


Is anybody able to see how everybody who doesn’t believe war is the most effective way to end terror, are villified by the macho ‘war-niks’?

That is why people want to blow Americans up, because in your world, there isn’t room for anybody but yourselves.

In media, you stifle the exposure of all non-hollywood expression. In business, you decide that Afghanistan would be better off with McDonalds & Starbucks, so you roll in & crush all domestic businesses. In culture, well how many times have we heard the sentiment “fuck muslims” or “fuck islam” in this thread alone? It’s because you marginalize & opress anything non-american that you motivate people to show you just how unmarginal they are, by bombing you.

Don’t misunderstand me, the bombings are evil & wrong. The point is that the motivation that fuels them doesn’t come from islam or jihad: it comes from you.

276

[quote]Killa Cam wrote:
Is anybody able to see how everybody who doesn’t believe war is the most effective way to end terror, are villified by the macho ‘war-niks’?

That is why people want to blow Americans up, because in your world, there isn’t room for anybody but yourselves.

In media, you stifle the exposure of all non-hollywood expression. In business, you decide that Afghanistan would be better off with McDonalds & Starbucks, so you roll in & crush all domestic businesses. In culture, well how many times have we heard the sentiment “fuck muslims” or “fuck islam” in this thread alone? It’s because you marginalize & opress anything non-american that you motivate people to show you just how unmarginal they are, by bombing you.

Don’t misunderstand me, the bombings are evil & wrong. The point is that the motivation that fuels them doesn’t come from islam or jihad: it comes from you.[/quote]

I nominate this post as the stupidest fucking post of the year. Yes - of the year. I’m including everything that Protein Powda, Lightsource, XcelticX, and every other troll that has written stupid shit. This post is the stupidest - by far.

So, it’s all our fault. The bombings are wrong, but they’re our fault because we put a Starbucks in. Gotta little secret for you there, dumbass - Starbucks would fold like a bad poker hand if THE PEOPLE didn’t buy from them. But you can’t see simple simple business theory in your “Blame America” rage.

I feel sorry for you. I really do.

277

Which part… this… ?

What you fail to realize is that ideology is not determined by the nature of the reception of that ideology.

Maybe I should rephrase for Rainjack. Failure to understand the fact that we are dealing with an ideology shows simple thinking.

Children think very simply. They don’t realize the repurcussions of their activities or the subtleties of the situations that they may be in.

So, perhaps it was a bit sophisticated for some of you, but I was suggesting that such simple thinking was similar to that of a child.

The worlds problems are not generally understood by or solved by the thinking of children.

Is that spelled out enough?

I don’t know what else to do… if I drop a statement that means something nobody catches it… if I say simple things that people might understand, they get upset while still missing the point.

Oh well, guess I’ll just do what I want and say what I want and let the chips fall where they fall. That is what everyone else does… so fire away your silly insults and ignore all the interesting things people say.

Oh yes, Rainjack, before I forget, this discussion, because it is about terrorism and the reasons for it, is about a lot more than simple military action. Perhaps you choose not to believe that… but it’s really silly to try to limit the conversation to something so small just so that you can actually be right for a change.

If that’s what you have to do though, just go for it…

278

[quote]Killa Cam wrote:
Is anybody able to see how everybody who doesn’t believe war is the most effective way to end terror, are villified by the macho ‘war-niks’?

That is why people want to blow Americans up, because in your world, there isn’t room for anybody but yourselves.

In media, you stifle the exposure of all non-hollywood expression. In business, you decide that Afghanistan would be better off with McDonalds & Starbucks, so you roll in & crush all domestic businesses. In culture, well how many times have we heard the sentiment “fuck muslims” or “fuck islam” in this thread alone? It’s because you marginalize & opress anything non-american that you motivate people to show you just how unmarginal they are, by bombing you.

Don’t misunderstand me, the bombings are evil & wrong. The point is that the motivation that fuels them doesn’t come from islam or jihad: it comes from you.[/quote]

We want to blow them up too…but we don’t. It’s called restraint in the use of overwhelming force. It’s what a superpower and a benevolent nation does. If we wanted to destroy the middle east how long do you really think it would last. Do you think Al-Queda would show the same restraint. I don’t.

What psycopathic killers do is fly planes into buildings and blow up subways.

Want to blame someone for terrorism…try the terrorists.

279

[quote]Killa Cam wrote:
Is anybody able to see how everybody who doesn’t believe war is the most effective way to end terror, are villified by the macho ‘war-niks’?

That is why people want to blow Americans up, because in your world, there isn’t room for anybody but yourselves.

In media, you stifle the exposure of all non-hollywood expression. In business, you decide that Afghanistan would be better off with McDonalds & Starbucks, so you roll in & crush all domestic businesses. In culture, well how many times have we heard the sentiment “fuck muslims” or “fuck islam” in this thread alone? It’s because you marginalize & opress anything non-american that you motivate people to show you just how unmarginal they are, by bombing you.

Don’t misunderstand me, the bombings are evil & wrong. The point is that the motivation that fuels them doesn’t come from islam or jihad: it comes from you.[/quote]

Slap in the mouth. Overhand using only the left hand.

Slap…Slap…Slap…

No words. No expression.

Slap…Slap…Slap…

“It’s your fault. Americans are more evil than the terrorists”

Slap…Slap…Slap…

“You can’t…”

Slap…Slap…Slap…

“Ok. But…”

Slap…Slap…Slap…

“Ok.”

Then, I say, “Now that you have been reset, let’s go to the families of 9/11. Let’s go to England. Let’s sit down and ask the innocents what they did to deserve this. What were THEY doing that was so awful. Then you shall apologize.”

“I…”

Left hand is raised.

“Ok, I’ll go.”

JeffR

280

[quote]vroom wrote:
Oh yes, Rainjack, before I forget, this discussion, because it is about terrorism and the reasons for it, is about a lot more than simple military action. Perhaps you choose not to believe that… but it’s really silly to try to limit the conversation to something so small just so that you can actually be right for a change.

If that’s what you have to do though, just go for it…[/quote]

I agree in the big picture. But I was in a conversation specifically discussing military. Once again vroom - if you read AND understand, you don’t look like a comlete idiot. Evidently you have a problem with context. Were I you, I would have that problem looked at, as you are being mistaken for an idiot.

I’m not narrowing the conversation just to be right. I don’t have to do that. You, on the other hand expand everything so that we can all sit down and think about it.

Why don’t you go sit under a tree and think on your own? I don’t think anyone on this side wants to rethink all the shit that has already been discussed on here simply because vroom thinks it’s reflection/introspection hour.

281

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Killa Cam wrote:
Is anybody able to see how everybody who doesn’t believe war is the most effective way to end terror, are villified by the macho ‘war-niks’?

That is why people want to blow Americans up, because in your world, there isn’t room for anybody but yourselves.

In media, you stifle the exposure of all non-hollywood expression. In business, you decide that Afghanistan would be better off with McDonalds & Starbucks, so you roll in & crush all domestic businesses. In culture, well how many times have we heard the sentiment “fuck muslims” or “fuck islam” in this thread alone? It’s because you marginalize & opress anything non-american that you motivate people to show you just how unmarginal they are, by bombing you.

Don’t misunderstand me, the bombings are evil & wrong. The point is that the motivation that fuels them doesn’t come from islam or jihad: it comes from you.

Slap in the mouth. Overhand using only the left hand.

Slap…Slap…Slap…

No words. No expression.

Slap…Slap…Slap…

“It’s your fault. Americans are more evil than the terrorists”

Slap…Slap…Slap…

“You can’t…”

Slap…Slap…Slap…

“Ok. But…”

Slap…Slap…Slap…

“Ok.”

Then, I say, “Now that you have been reset, let’s go to the families of 9/11. Let’s go to England. Let’s sit down and ask the innocents what they did to deserve this. What were THEY doing that was so awful. Then you shall apologize.”

“I…”

Left hand is raised.

“Ok, I’ll go.”

JeffR[/quote]

I’ll add some backhands myself…Ouch I cut it on the glorious cup the pride of his land…oh shit!.

282

[quote]JohnGullick wrote:
I am not a war-monger. I don’t like seeing our men and women killed either. But you don’t negotiate with terrorists.

You don’t provoke them either.

[/quote]

You have it all wrong. We didn’t “provoke them” prior to their attacking our country. That didn’t seem to help much