I answered your question, and you change the subject.
I agree that we are winning the WOT, but that wasn’t what was being discussed. You said we were fighting a concept, not a real enemy.
And I hate to disagree with you yet again, but the PLO is the ruling party of Palestine. Hammas(sp) is on the cusp of beign recognized as a political party in Lebanon (or some country).
Nad while we’re on the subject - you might want to get a message to Al Zarqowi that Al Qaeda is non existent.
This is not a race war. That doesn’t even deserve a response.
[quote]Panther1015 wrote:
Panther1015 wrote:
John, you’re not going to please everybody all the time. Walking on eggshells is not going to end terrorism. Appeasement may not be what you’re thinking, but that’s certainly how some of us are interpreting your theories. Now, should we be respectful of other cultures? Of course! But we should also live by our own valued principles. If that offends others, it’s really their problem. NOTHING we have done justifies terrorism. So to those people that bomb us because they are in some way “offended” by our culture, here’s what I have to say:
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BTW, that was supposed to be a middle finger. [/quote]
What if some of your values are not so valuable as you’ve been taught to believe? Or failing that, what if you only think their being upheld when in reality they are not? Besides, its not like Islam teaches terrorism and racism, hence the billion or so Muslims who do not blow things up. You can not seriously be suggesting because Americans drive big cars and eat lots Muslims are outraged?! Have you ever been to Abu Dhabi or Dubai or Oman or Saudi? They live the ‘American Dream’ of minimal work, maximum consumption, freedom from government interference etc. Freedom, democracy and woman’s rights do not outrage Muslims, just as they don’t anybody else. Just like other people Muslims are outraged at injustice, lies, greed and genocide. It may be dressed up in quotes from the Koran but it is essentially outrage at Western wrong doings. Are terrorists justified in their actions? Of course not. Are they justified in their outrage? Yes, but the last possible avenue of voiceing protest- the UN- was silenced just before Iraq. Channels need to be opened, not to negotiate for our lives, but because we are taking more than we are giving these people.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I answered your question, and you change the subject.
I agree that we are winning the WOT, but that wasn’t what was being discussed. You said we were fighting a concept, not a real enemy.[/quote]
I said we weren’t fighting a land army. The enemy is real but, bombs and soldiers are not the answer to defeating them.
[quote]And I hate to disagree with you yet again, but the PLO is the ruling party of Palestine. Hammas(sp) is on the cusp of beign recognized as a political party in Lebanon (or some country).
Nad while we’re on the subject - you might want to get a message to Al Zarqowi that Al Qaeda is non existent.[/quote]
Actually why hasn’t the mighty USA capture Bin Laden yet?
Don’t be ashamed, America was built on race wars (as was Britain, albeit 1000 years ago, although our Empire was more recent racially motivated terror). You’re following in your forefathers footsteps. I only point it out because Muslims have been so targeted, yet things like the Sudan situation were left entirely alone.
I think you have it backwards. The Muslims, rather the radical Islamic Jihadists, were the ones that put us in the cross hairs first.
Maybe it is a race war if you are looking from their side over at us, but this is a War on Terror. How can you say it is a race war when their are several different races involved? Which race in particular is the U.S. singling out?
As for the age old question, “Why haven’t we gotten Bin Laden, yet?” Becasuse we are waging a global War on Terror. He is the number one guy as far as most wanted goes, but he is among friends and is well hidden. It’s not like we’re not trying. Last time I checked we still had troops in Afghanistan looking for the guy.
But I’m sure if we promised to never offend Islam again, then he would come right out. Maybe if the Western World swore to always be nice to the Radical Islamofacists, we wouldn’t have to keep looking for Al Zarqowi - he would come out and we could all be friends.
[quote]JohnGullick wrote:
What if some of your values are not so valuable as you’ve been taught to believe?[/quote]
That’s what reflecting and an open mind are for. But when you’re bombed and innocent people are INTENTIONALLY killed, you forfeit your right to be heard as far as I’m concerned.
That is a clear example of what’s happening with these middle eastern terrorists. Many hide under the guise of a religion. They interpret this religion out of its proper context and are thus NOT upholding their supposed values.
Exactly, so why should we deal with the terrorists with reason? It makes no sense.
Look, no society or culture is perfect. These terrorists are performing their own “wrong doings” right now and they’re unleashing it - INTENTIONALLY - on our citizens. We are not INTENTIONALLY killing innocents in their own lands out of retaliation, yet they continue to do such to Western nations.
You’re DAMN right they’re not.
With all due respect, I can’t take this seriously. They’ve had opportunities LOOOOONG before the WOT was brought to Iraq. These people choose violence as their language. That forfeits their right to be dealt with reason because they’ve demonstrated no reason. They should take a page from Gandhi if they want to know how to get their message across effectively.
Disagree. We’re giving these people more opportunity to reach their potential by opening channels of education, freedom and opportunity in their country. It won’t be a perfect process.
I’m sure some McD’s will pop up there and you’ll see some McJujeh kabobs, etc. But for the most part, in the long term, we are working on helping them establish a government that will give them far greater opportunity than these people (Iraqi’s and Afghans) had under Saddam or the Taliban.
Freedom requires great responsibility. People are able to use it for just about anything they wish, which is why along with what makes America great - opportunity, abundance and the like; you have some things that piss off others too - “Western wrong doings” as you call it.
Well, if they have a problem with it, there is always a way to bring it to light without resorting to violence. Perhaps some of these people felt there weren’t other channels and that’s what drove them to become terrorists in the first place. As Bush said, bringing them Democracy will do a great deal in preventing that from happening in the first place. Democracy gives us a voice. We have to choose to use it - right or wrong (ie protesting injustices or lobbying for the sake of making money).
I guess it’s like being in a heated debate with a colleague. After a while that colleague seems to not be listening to what you’re saying and you are pretty offended by what he/she’s stating about their beliefs or values. Instead of considering that maybe they feel the same about yours and let reason win out, you - out of frustration - get into a fist fight with him. Do you think that the colleague will now listen to what you have to say? Naw, probably not. But that colleague will probably want to kick your teeth in and be right in doing so.
[quote]Panther1015 wrote:
JohnGullick wrote:
What if some of your values are not so valuable as you’ve been taught to believe?
That’s what reflecting and an open mind are for. But when you’re bombed and innocent people are INTENTIONALLY killed, you forfeit your right to be heard as far as I’m concerned.[/quote]
But the reflections have not helped. People still think sanctions against Iraq rather than good behaviour incentives were the way to go. They still think the US/UK invasion was good, and they still forget that Hussein was initially a US backed leader until he began nationalising oil companies. There’s little point reflecting if its so subjective.
[quote]Or failing that, what if you only think their being upheld when in reality they are not?
That is a clear example of what’s happening with these middle eastern terrorists. Many hide under the guise of a religion. They interpret this religion out of its proper context and are thus NOT upholding their supposed values.[/quote]
So both sides are guilty of it, true.
[quote]Besides, its not like Islam teaches terrorism and racism, hence the billion or so Muslims who do not blow things up.
Exactly, so why should we deal with the terrorists with reason? It makes no sense.[/quote]
But how many terrorists has the US killed and how many innocents. The civilian death count I quoted in my recent dissertation was 100,000 from the Red Cross.
[quote]You can not seriously be suggesting because Americans drive big cars and eat lots Muslims are outraged?! Have you ever been to Abu Dhabi or Dubai or Oman or Saudi? They live the ‘American Dream’ of minimal work, maximum consumption, freedom from government interference etc. Freedom, democracy and woman’s rights do not outrage Muslims, just as they don’t anybody else. Just like other people Muslims are outraged at injustice, lies, greed and genocide. It may be dressed up in quotes from the Koran but it is essentially outrage at Western wrong doings.
Look, no society or culture is perfect. These terrorists are performing their own “wrong doings” right now and they’re unleashing it - INTENTIONALLY - on our citizens. We are not INTENTIONALLY killing innocents in their own lands out of retaliation, yet they continue to do such to Western nations.[/quote]
So don’t put yourself in the position to accidentally kill civilians. Equally acknowledge the death of said civilians. As I’ve said before, the Red Cross are the only people trying to find out the true cost of Iraq
[quote]Are terrorists justified in their actions? Of course not.
You’re DAMN right they’re not.
Are they justified in their outrage? Yes, but the last possible avenue of voiceing protest- the UN- was silenced just before Iraq.
With all due respect, I can’t take this seriously. They’ve had opportunities LOOOOONG before the WOT was brought to Iraq. These people choose violence as their language. That forfeits their right to be dealt with reason because they’ve demonstrated no reason. They should take a page from Gandhi if they want to know how to get their message across effectively.[/quote]
Did you hear about Femsa/Coke in Colombia? If you did it was no doubt because an American human rights group took up the cause. How can Muslims in the Middle East protest America’s cultural, corporate and financial wrong doings in America? They can protest on the outside, which they have peaceably, but the problems have not stopped.
[quote]Channels need to be opened, not to negotiate for our lives, but because we are taking more than we are giving these people.
Disagree. We’re giving these people more opportunity to reach their potential by opening channels of education, freedom and opportunity in their country. It won’t be a perfect process.
I’m sure some McD’s will pop up there and you’ll see some McJujeh kabobs, etc. But for the most part, in the long term, we are working on helping them establish a government that will give them far greater opportunity than these people (Iraqi’s and Afghans) had under Saddam or the Taliban.[/quote]
Well the channels don’t seem to be working very well. The Afgans are all but a lost cause. Al Jazeera can fill you in on which bits of Afganistan the US has control of. As for Iraq I remember seeing a breakdown of the people the US was backing for power in Iraq and their various political and corporate affiliations. I wouldn’t like to speculate what they were because I forget, anyway, I’m hoping the new Iraq government (if the US factions and local factions can ever reconcile) will not be a puppet government.
No, Western wrong doing is illegitimate violence, cvilian deaths and such. Getting supersize meals wasn’t what I was refering to as I said before.
How many Muslim voices do hear protesting? Do you read Al Jazeera for an Arab perspective at least? If you do how many other Americans do? The protests are there, but the only thing most people have noticed, sadly is the bombs. I am by no means saying they are the right path, I’m saying the neo-cons need to listen.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I think you have it backwards. The Muslims, rather the radical Islamic Jihadists, were the ones that put us in the cross hairs first.
Maybe it is a race war if you are looking from their side over at us, but this is a War on Terror. How can you say it is a race war when their are several different races involved? Which race in particular is the U.S. singling out?[/quote]
Arabs, particularly Muslim ones. By definition a race war must have several races in too.
Did you hear Tony Blair say that the London bomb could not have been prevented? I guess the reasoning is that the terror cells are often too small to be picked up. Well I hope the soldiers can do the job the dedacated intelligence community.
[quote]But I’m sure if we promised to never offend Islam again, then he would come right out. Maybe if the Western World swore to always be nice to the Radical Islamofacists, we wouldn’t have to keep looking for Al Zarqowi - he would come out and we could all be friends.
[/quote]
How about not invading countries for oil rather than you pedantic suggestions? How about not killing 150,000 civilians etc.
[quote]JohnGullick wrote:
Arabs, particularly Muslim ones. By definition a race war must have several races in too. [/quote]
Two races, one on each side. Not multiple like you have in the WOT. What about the Afghans? Hardly Arab. More closely linked to the Indians and the Pakistanis. Iraq is almost a melting pot of sorts. It would be hard to single out the race we wanted to exterminate there were we actually doing such.
On the one hand, you have said that the terrorists are crude and uneducated. Now you are saying that they are too wiley for our troops to hunt down and kill.
But I digress. The terrorists only have to get it right once in a million tries to cause unspeakable damage to innocent lives. We, in the other hand, have to be dead on perfect everytime to prevent such damage. The odds are on the side of the terrorists - IF- we don’t take the war to them and force them to scramble and defend themselves on their soil. Appeasing them, or whatever term you want to use for playing nice and not offending them will just get more people killed and there would never be any peace.
[quote]How about not invading countries for oil rather than you pedantic suggestions? How about not killing 150,000 civilians etc.
[/quote]
It’s not pedantic - it’s being absurd to make a point. Prove that the Coalition has killed 150,000 civilians. Prove that the glorious mercinaries that are working for Al Qaeda has not had a hand n any civilian death.
If we were invading for oil, as yuou charge, why is gas higher now than it’s ever been? You’d think I’d be paying half of what I am currently if we were there for oil.
If you want to be against the WOT, fine. But don’t start throwing worn out peacenik talking points around to try and prove your position. Especially ones that have been debunked countless times.
I think it’d be great if all the fundamentalists of every stripe and every “warnik” (as opposed to peacenik) would gather at the ancient battleground at Megiddo ( better known as Armageddon) and just wiped each other out so the rest of us could just get on with our lives.
The West/Christianity is no more blameless or morally right than East/Islam. Both sides have behaved badly. Neither side has any claim to the moral high-ground they both furiously seek. And I’m sure that anyone who had to dig the crushed, bloody, broken bodies of loved ones out of some place impacted by a bomb could give a rat’s ass if it was deliberate or not or whether it was a terrorist or an American pilot resposible. Their people are just as dead, they feel just as helpless and just as outraged. So let’s get off the high horses.
[quote]WMD wrote:
I think it’d be great if all the fundamentalists of every stripe and every “warnik” (as opposed to peacenik) would gather at the ancient battleground at Megiddo ( better known as Armageddon) and just wiped each other out so the rest of us could just get on with our lives.
The West/Christianity is no more blameless or morally right than East/Islam. Both sides have behaved badly. Neither side has any claim to the moral high-ground they both furiously seek. And I’m sure that anyone who had to dig the crushed, bloody, broken bodies of loved ones out of some place impacted by a bomb could give a rat’s ass if it was deliberate or not or whether it was a terrorist or an American pilot resposible. Their people are just as dead, they feel just as helpless and just as outraged. So let’s get off the high horses.[/quote]
Sorry Charlie -
The West may have had its share of misguided deeds in the past. But If there is a group of people who are intentionally targeting innocent citizens to blow up, I want it stopped. So does about 4 billion other people.
We don’t target civilians. We don’t operate in the shadows. There is a huge difference in what we are doing and what the terrorists are doing.
The apologists and the appeasers can go to hell for all I care. For as much help as you’ve been ion the WOT - you would do just as well to strap on a bomb and don a turbine.
They were not unprovoked. Just because W. said the world changed after 9/11 does not mean it did. The West has been stepping on toes for hundreds of years. It was the British empire up until WWI and then the US was quite overt in taking up the mantel of London’s power. Even the French (i.e. about as Western as you can get) have fire bombed MacDonalds due to a percieved cultural threat. Even I feel incredibly encroched upon by US culture sometimes. Hollywood for instance is the main export from the US. It is renowned throughout the world for stifling local films. Even Bollywood can not compete with the ‘incentives’ offered by the likes of Disney and MGM (eg the ‘train’ system whereby to purchase a major film you must also purchase and show a series of smaller pictures, crowding out local films). Television shows come with simmilar stipulations. Now this may all sound trivial but think about if the majority of the popular culture you consumed was Islamic; not even in your native tongue; not preaching the values you believe in. Would you not feel threatened? For those who think ‘thats crap, pop. cultures not that powerful’ I refer you to the work ‘American Dream, Global Nightmare’ by Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies for an overview. I’ll also let you marinate on the statistic that Hollywood produces only 10% of the world’s films yet 75% of box office earnings go there. That is how much the world is exposed to American values and ultimately metanarative. Even Europeans feel threatened so no wonder areas with more inflexible belief systems are even more so. Hollywood is just one example, when you factor in all the US corporations, US TV shows and myriad military installations around the world you can see the provocation has been going on for years, whether percived by the American public or not. The fact that the 9/11 attack was struck at such a symbolic target should suggest this anyway. The subsequent invasions of Afganistan and Iraq simply add insult to the injuries caused prior to 2001. UN double standards with regards to Israel do not help either. No, backing down is not always the answer, but how can the military in Iraq stop ‘terrorists’? ‘Terrorism’ is a concept, therefore is needs to be fought with a concept: the idea that Westerners do not deserve to die, hence we must behave well.[/quote]
You are actually justifying the murder of innocents because Hollywood makes shitty movies? Your mind is truly warped JohnGullick.
[quote]vroom wrote:
We don’t operate in the shadows.
I wouldn’t be too sure about this statement…[/quote]
If you want to find our military - you’ll have no trouble doing so. Our HQ isn’t on the back of a camel traveling through desolate mountains.
You guys will go to almost any length to equate our WOT with the terrorists themselves. Not that it bothers me, but - geez don’t any of you with the love beads and sandals have a new thought every once in a while?
Some of you guys refuse to believe that anything done to the rest of the world could have any bearing on how the rest of the world views you.
Anyway, you commit the usual act of setting people up for an equality or belief they don’t have and then criticize that, instead of what they actually said.
Are a few people on here over the deep end? Yes. Are there some things that bear serious thought? Also yes.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Some of you guys refuse to believe that anything done to the rest of the world could have any bearing on how the rest of the world views you.
Anyway, you commit the usual act of setting people up for an equality or belief they don’t have and then criticize that, instead of what they actually said.
Are a few people on here over the deep end? Yes. Are there some things that bear serious thought? Also yes.[/quote]
Vroom - you take something I wrote totally out of context and make up your own, “let’s sit down and think about this really deep concept that I have come up with” bullshit.
WTF do you think we’ve been doing for the last several days? You are late to the party and it is not our responsibility to placate because you have this notion that real though cannot occur without your avatar somewhere on the page.
Besides - if you would read the shit you are trying to pass off as intellectual before you hit the ‘submit’ button, maybe you wouldn’t post so much of this type of blathering nonsense.
The MAJORITY of Al Qaeda terrorists and their ilk have not had a family member killed by Western forces. This is an important point it seems, because I continuously read statements asking “how would you feel if your sister was mowed down by a Marine, regardless of whether or not it was intentional?”, as if the global Islamic jihad movement was made up entirely of folks seeking revenge for fallen family members.
Now I have read my fair share of Said and Lewis and such, I understand the deep religious motivations for these people. That’s fine, use that as your justification for their desire to nuke a major western city. Feel free to parrot the justifications used for 9/11, before the Iraqi occupation was available as a convenient excuse. But please stop insinuating that living relatives of American war crime victims are committing,and more importantly driving these international attacks, it’s just not true.
[quote]jayhawk1 wrote:
The MAJORITY of Al Qaeda terrorists and their ilk have not had a family member killed by Western forces. This is an important point it seems, because I continuously read statements asking “how would you feel if your sister was mowed down by a Marine, regardless of whether or not it was intentional?”, as if the global Islamic jihad movement was made up entirely of folks seeking revenge for fallen family members.
Now I have read my fair share of Said and Lewis and such, I understand the deep religious motivations for these people. That’s fine, use that as your justification for their desire to nuke a major western city. Feel free to parrot the justifications used for 9/11, before the Iraqi occupation was available as a convenient excuse. But please stop insinuating that living relatives of American war crime victims are committing,and more importantly driving these international attacks, it’s just not true. [/quote]
You are probably right, but according to chairman Mao a guerillero moves between his people like a fish in the water. That requires that his people (or a significant part of them) support him and his ideas. It is this support that is created, when civilians die.