London Bombing

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
223

Qur?an 8:12 ?I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.?

Qur?an 8:57 ?If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.?

Ishaq:326 ?If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah?s enemies.?

Silencer

Islam has fanatics. They have pulled what they find necessary from the Qur’an. Unfortunately the quotes listed above are also found in the book.

But I agree they have been corrupted by men who use relgion for evil rather then worship. Perhaps that is a basis to go forward.

The Muslims need to face that and deal with that. Allah may be mecriful but if the attacks continue the great infidel will not be.

224

Patience folks. This aint a conventional war. We’re fighting murderers, not soldiers, as evidenced by all these terrorist attacks like the one in London. Like Bin Laden said pre 9-11 and Bush said before the US-led war on Terror, this will be a war of wills moreso than any other war. The terrorists think we are soft and will implode in the wake of intense bloodshed. So long as some of you extreme liberals feel we need an artificial timeline and paint Bush as evil, or extreme conservatives say we should just turn the middle east into a giant, radioactive glass ingot get your way, we are sure to lose. Thankfully NEITHER is going to happen.

225

the problem, hedo, is that these quotes are thus taken out of context… and that’s what these fanatics learn… they learn phrases taken out of context…

[quote]hedo wrote:
Qur?an 8:12 ?I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.? [/quote]

it continues… :

[8:13] This is what they have justly incurred by fighting God and His messenger. For those who fight against God and His messenger, God’s retribution is severe.

so you can see it is only about those FIGHTING against the muslims, not about civilians.

[quote]
Qur?an 8:57 ?If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.? [/quote]

before it, it says:

[8:56] You reach [peace] agreements with them, but they violate their agreements every time; they are not righteous.

and the translation you quoted is false… i’ll give you two versions:

[8:57] Therefore, if you encounter them in war, you shall set them up as a deterrent example for those who come after them, that they may take heed.

or

  1. If ye gain the mastery over them in war, disperse, with them, those who follow them, that they may remember.

in both translations (rashad khalifa, and yusuf ali, respectively), its clear that because the peace agreement was broken and the Muslims were betrayed, they are to teach them a lesson and set them up as an example to others who betray peace agreements. it continues:

[8:58] When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. God does not love the betrayers.

so like you said, these verses do exist, but they are taken out of context and only the above quoted parts are taught to the fanatics-to-be… not the whole Qur’an… if they were taught the whole Qur’an, they would truly be peaceful.

226

[quote]Panther1015 wrote:
Patience folks. This aint a conventional war. We’re fighting murderers, not soldiers, as evidenced by all these terrorist attacks like the one in London. Like Bin Laden said pre 9-11 and Bush said before the US-led war on Terror, this will be a war of wills moreso than any other war. The terrorists think we are soft and will implode in the wake of intense bloodshed. So long as some of you extreme liberals feel we need an artificial timeline and paint Bush as evil, or extreme conservatives say we should just turn the middle east into a giant, radioactive glass ingot get your way, we are sure to lose. Thankfully NEITHER is going to happen.[/quote]

Nice post. ALthough the glass ingot thing sounds pretty good.

227

[quote]hedo wrote:
Qur?an 8:12 ?I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.?

Qur?an 8:57 ?If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.?

Ishaq:326 ?If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah?s enemies.?
[/quote]

These statements are all in the Quran, however the word “infidel” is used to refer to idol worshippers. Christians and Jews are not idol worshippers.

And so, even these statements taken out of context could not provide justification for the terrorist acts.

Silencer is right, these guys have a political agenda, and are using ignorant, uneducated people to do their grunt work.

228

Silencer

I am not Muslim and do not know the Qur’an as well as you do.

I truly hope that what you say is true. I have seen demostrations pointing both ways with regard to context. If it is true ,then I hope good Muslims, preach it to those who are ignorant and seek to justify murder in a religous context. They sorely need it.

It is time for good men of character, such as you appear to be, to be heard and recognized, before it is too late.

229

“YOU DON’T PROVOKE THEM EITHER.”

-johnguillick: 7/9/05.

“I make an earnest appeal to those who hold responsible positions both in this country and abroad to weigh their words very carefully before they utter them on this matter, bearing in mind the consequences that may flow from some rash or thoughtless phrase. By exercising caution and patience and self-restraint we may yet be able to save the peace of Europe.” -Neville Chamberlin (1938)

?How horrible, fantastic, incredible, it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing!? ?Neville Chamberlain (1938)

"We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analysing possible causes, by trying to remove them -Neville Chamberlain (1938)

‘I do my utmost, night after night, to keep out of the papers anything which might hurt their [the Germans’] susceptibilities … I shall be more grateful than I can say for any explanation … I have always been convinced that the peace of the world depends upon our getting into reasonable relations with Germany.’

Geoffrey Dawson -Editor of The Times (1937)

Supposing I had gone to the country and said that Germany was rearming, and that we must rearm, does anybody think that this pacific democracy would have rallied to that cry at that moment? I cannot think of anything that would have made the loss of the election from my point of view more certain

Stanley Baldwin P.M. 1935-1937-speaking after WWII

“With two lunatics like Mussolini and Hitler you can never be sure of anything. But I am determined to keep the country out of war.” Stanley Baldwin-(april 1936)

We hear war called murder. It is not: it is suicide"

James MacDonald P.M 1929-1935

JeffR

230

janoski,

Please don’t answer questions with questions.

First, answer my questions.

Quid Pro Quo.

JeffR

231

[quote]JeffR wrote:
“YOU DON’T PROVOKE THEM EITHER.”

-johnguillick: 7/9/05.

“I make an earnest appeal to those who hold responsible positions both in this country and abroad to weigh their words very carefully before they utter them on this matter, bearing in mind the consequences that may flow from some rash or thoughtless phrase. By exercising caution and patience and self-restraint we may yet be able to save the peace of Europe.” -Neville Chamberlin (1938)

?How horrible, fantastic, incredible, it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing!? ?Neville Chamberlain (1938)

"We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analysing possible causes, by trying to remove them -Neville Chamberlain (1938)

‘I do my utmost, night after night, to keep out of the papers anything which might hurt their [the Germans’] susceptibilities … I shall be more grateful than I can say for any explanation … I have always been convinced that the peace of the world depends upon our getting into reasonable relations with Germany.’

Geoffrey Dawson -Editor of The Times (1937)

Supposing I had gone to the country and said that Germany was rearming, and that we must rearm, does anybody think that this pacific democracy would have rallied to that cry at that moment? I cannot think of anything that would have made the loss of the election from my point of view more certain

Stanley Baldwin P.M. 1935-1937-speaking after WWII

“With two lunatics like Mussolini and Hitler you can never be sure of anything. But I am determined to keep the country out of war.” Stanley Baldwin-(april 1936)

We hear war called murder. It is not: it is suicide"

James MacDonald P.M 1929-1935

JeffR

[/quote]

That’s a hell of a post. I guess history is bound to repeat itself. Wake the fuck up people.

232

[quote]JeffR wrote:
“YOU DON’T PROVOKE THEM EITHER.”

-johnguillick: 7/9/05.

“I make an earnest appeal to those who hold responsible positions both in this country and abroad to weigh their words very carefully before they utter them on this matter, bearing in mind the consequences that may flow from some rash or thoughtless phrase. By exercising caution and patience and self-restraint we may yet be able to save the peace of Europe.” -Neville Chamberlin (1938)

?How horrible, fantastic, incredible, it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing!? ?Neville Chamberlain (1938)

"We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analysing possible causes, by trying to remove them -Neville Chamberlain (1938)

‘I do my utmost, night after night, to keep out of the papers anything which might hurt their [the Germans’] susceptibilities … I shall be more grateful than I can say for any explanation … I have always been convinced that the peace of the world depends upon our getting into reasonable relations with Germany.’

Geoffrey Dawson -Editor of The Times (1937)

Supposing I had gone to the country and said that Germany was rearming, and that we must rearm, does anybody think that this pacific democracy would have rallied to that cry at that moment? I cannot think of anything that would have made the loss of the election from my point of view more certain

Stanley Baldwin P.M. 1935-1937-speaking after WWII

“With two lunatics like Mussolini and Hitler you can never be sure of anything. But I am determined to keep the country out of war.” Stanley Baldwin-(april 1936)

We hear war called murder. It is not: it is suicide"

James MacDonald P.M 1929-1935

JeffR

[/quote]

Nice.

233

nice simple reads for those who wish to know more:

http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/terrorism1.htm

a free online book (short and simplistic) about how Islam denounces terrorism and enjoins peace. This writer is very popular in the Islamic world, having written over 200 such books many of which have been translated to 47 languages. He also makes documentaries that air in some Muslim countries, and he provides a lot of them (including ALL his books) for free online!!!

historical novel about the beginning of Islam… beautifully written. someone typed it all and posted it online. 3 forum pages long, i tihnk you will enjoy reading it even if just as a story, for the author - H.A.L. Craig- is obviously a great writer (he is also a wonderful screenwriter, having written scripts for award winning films like The Message and Lion of the Desert).

i highly recommend both these two links for those who are interested in knowing about Islam.

234

[quote]FCFighter wrote:
JohnGullick wrote:

You don’t provoke them either.

Did black Americans “provoke” white America when they stood up for their God-given rights?

They came to our land unprovoked. They “provoked” us. By retaliating do you mean provoke? We can’t do much about the hate propoganda they preach inside their own homes to friends and family. Yeh, we do Psy-Ops…trying to win their “hearts and minds.”

Just backing down in not the answer. You don’t fight a fire by letting it burn itself out. You might let the whole town(world) burn in the process.

[/quote]

They were not unprovoked. Just because W. said the world changed after 9/11 does not mean it did. The West has been stepping on toes for hundreds of years. It was the British empire up until WWI and then the US was quite overt in taking up the mantel of London’s power. Even the French (i.e. about as Western as you can get) have fire bombed MacDonalds due to a percieved cultural threat. Even I feel incredibly encroched upon by US culture sometimes. Hollywood for instance is the main export from the US. It is renowned throughout the world for stifling local films. Even Bollywood can not compete with the ‘incentives’ offered by the likes of Disney and MGM (eg the ‘train’ system whereby to purchase a major film you must also purchase and show a series of smaller pictures, crowding out local films). Television shows come with simmilar stipulations. Now this may all sound trivial but think about if the majority of the popular culture you consumed was Islamic; not even in your native tongue; not preaching the values you believe in. Would you not feel threatened? For those who think ‘thats crap, pop. cultures not that powerful’ I refer you to the work ‘American Dream, Global Nightmare’ by Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies for an overview. I’ll also let you marinate on the statistic that Hollywood produces only 10% of the world’s films yet 75% of box office earnings go there. That is how much the world is exposed to American values and ultimately metanarative. Even Europeans feel threatened so no wonder areas with more inflexible belief systems are even more so. Hollywood is just one example, when you factor in all the US corporations, US TV shows and myriad military installations around the world you can see the provocation has been going on for years, whether percived by the American public or not. The fact that the 9/11 attack was struck at such a symbolic target should suggest this anyway. The subsequent invasions of Afganistan and Iraq simply add insult to the injuries caused prior to 2001. UN double standards with regards to Israel do not help either. No, backing down is not always the answer, but how can the military in Iraq stop ‘terrorists’? ‘Terrorism’ is a concept, therefore is needs to be fought with a concept: the idea that Westerners do not deserve to die, hence we must behave well.

235

[quote]JeffR wrote:
“YOU DON’T PROVOKE THEM EITHER.”

-johnguillick: 7/9/05.

“I make an earnest appeal to those who hold responsible positions both in this country and abroad to weigh their words very carefully before they utter them on this matter, bearing in mind the consequences that may flow from some rash or thoughtless phrase. By exercising caution and patience and self-restraint we may yet be able to save the peace of Europe.” -Neville Chamberlin (1938)

?How horrible, fantastic, incredible, it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing!? ?Neville Chamberlain (1938)

"We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analysing possible causes, by trying to remove them -Neville Chamberlain (1938)

‘I do my utmost, night after night, to keep out of the papers anything which might hurt their [the Germans’] susceptibilities … I shall be more grateful than I can say for any explanation … I have always been convinced that the peace of the world depends upon our getting into reasonable relations with Germany.’

Geoffrey Dawson -Editor of The Times (1937)

Supposing I had gone to the country and said that Germany was rearming, and that we must rearm, does anybody think that this pacific democracy would have rallied to that cry at that moment? I cannot think of anything that would have made the loss of the election from my point of view more certain

Stanley Baldwin P.M. 1935-1937-speaking after WWII

“With two lunatics like Mussolini and Hitler you can never be sure of anything. But I am determined to keep the country out of war.” Stanley Baldwin-(april 1936)

We hear war called murder. It is not: it is suicide"

James MacDonald P.M 1929-1935

JeffR

[/quote]

How are any of those quotes within context? We are not fighting a land army. Even Al Queda is now and ideology rather than an organisation. Please do not try to cover up your lack of counter-argument with attempted profundity from a book of quotations.

236

[quote]JohnGullick wrote:
No, backing down is not always the answer, but how can the military in Iraq stop ‘terrorists’? ‘Terrorism’ is a concept, therefore is needs to be fought with a concept: the idea that Westerners do not deserve to die, hence we must behave well.[/quote]

HORSE SHIT!!!

Ask the families of the 50+ dead in London how theorhetical they feel about terroism.

We will lose this war if people with your chicken shit, appeasment=peace, don’t make them mad and they’ll go away mentality EVER have control of a major world Government.

237

[quote]rainjack wrote:
JohnGullick wrote:
No, backing down is not always the answer, but how can the military in Iraq stop ‘terrorists’? ‘Terrorism’ is a concept, therefore is needs to be fought with a concept: the idea that Westerners do not deserve to die, hence we must behave well.

HORSE SHIT!!!

Ask the families of the 50+ dead in London how theorhetical they feel about terroism.

We will lose this war if people with your chicken shit, appeasment=peace, don’t make them mad and they’ll go away mentality EVER have control of a major world Government. [/quote]

So you believe terrorists have big land army? It is conceptual is it not? How is this horse shit? Equally when did I ever say ‘appease’? (I’m serious, tell me). I’ve said repeatedly we just shouldn’t give people a reason to hate us. It’s not contraversial. Its not some kooky conspiracy.

238

John, you’re not going to please everybody all the time. Walking on eggshells is not going to end terrorism. Appeasement may not be what you’re thinking, but that’s certainly how some of us are interpreting your theories. Now, should we be respectful of other cultures? Of course! But we should also live by our own valued principles. If that offends others, it’s really their problem. NOTHING we have done justifies terrorism. So to those people that bomb us because they are in some way “offended” by our culture, here’s what I have to say:

            /?/) 
         ,/?  / 
        /..../ 
  /??/'   '/???`??

/‘/…/…/…/??\
(’( ? ? ?~/’ ')
\ ’ /
\ _.??
\ (
.…\

239

[quote]JohnGullick wrote:
So you believe terrorists have big land army? It is conceptual is it not? How is this horse shit? [/quote]

When did the definition of conceptual include not having a ‘big land army’? Al Qaeda has a full chain of command, so does Hezbullah, as does the PLO. These are very real enemies with full funding, and real weapons. That is how it is horse shit.

So we are supposed to change in order to be nicer to the terrorists so that they won’t kill us anymore? If that’s not appeasement, pal - please tell me what is.

240

[quote]JohnGullick wrote:
They were not unprovoked. Just because W. said the world changed after 9/11 does not mean it did. The West has been stepping on toes for hundreds of years. It was the British empire up until WWI and then the US was quite overt in taking up the mantel of London’s power. Even the French (i.e. about as Western as you can get) have fire bombed MacDonalds due to a percieved cultural threat. Even I feel incredibly encroched upon by US culture sometimes. Hollywood for instance is the main export from the US. It is renowned throughout the world for stifling local films. Even Bollywood can not compete with the ‘incentives’ offered by the likes of Disney and MGM (eg the ‘train’ system whereby to purchase a major film you must also purchase and show a series of smaller pictures, crowding out local films). Television shows come with simmilar stipulations. Now this may all sound trivial but think about if the majority of the popular culture you consumed was Islamic; not even in your native tongue; not preaching the values you believe in. Would you not feel threatened? For those who think ‘thats crap, pop. cultures not that powerful’ I refer you to the work ‘American Dream, Global Nightmare’ by Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies for an overview. I’ll also let you marinate on the statistic that Hollywood produces only 10% of the world’s films yet 75% of box office earnings go there. That is how much the world is exposed to American values and ultimately metanarative. Even Europeans feel threatened so no wonder areas with more inflexible belief systems are even more so. Hollywood is just one example, when you factor in all the US corporations, US TV shows and myriad military installations around the world you can see the provocation has been going on for years, whether percived by the American public or not. The fact that the 9/11 attack was struck at such a symbolic target should suggest this anyway. The subsequent invasions of Afganistan and Iraq simply add insult to the injuries caused prior to 2001. UN double standards with regards to Israel do not help either. No, backing down is not always the answer, but how can the military in Iraq stop ‘terrorists’? ‘Terrorism’ is a concept, therefore is needs to be fought with a concept: the idea that Westerners do not deserve to die, hence we must behave well.[/quote]

I can’t speak for the people of other nations when it comes to the kind of entertainment and food they enjoy, but if they didn’t like U.S. culture, it wouldn’t be imported.

You aren’t being forced to watch American films or eat a Big Mac. If others from your country like it though, don’t blame us.

That would be like us blowing up your house for the next horrible Hugh Grant movie that comes out. And that would probably be more justifiable.

241

[quote]Panther1015 wrote:
John, you’re not going to please everybody all the time. Walking on eggshells is not going to end terrorism. Appeasement may not be what you’re thinking, but that’s certainly how some of us are interpreting your theories. Now, should we be respectful of other cultures? Of course! But we should also live by our own valued principles. If that offends others, it’s really their problem. NOTHING we have done justifies terrorism. So to those people that bomb us because they are in some way “offended” by our culture, here’s what I have to say:

            /?/) 
         ,/?  / 
        /..../ 
  /??/'   '/???`??

/‘/…/…/…/??\
(’( ? ? ?~/’ ')
\ ’ /
\ _.??
\ (
.…\ [/quote]

BTW, that was supposed to be a middle finger.

242

[quote]rainjack wrote:
JohnGullick wrote:
So you believe terrorists have big land army? It is conceptual is it not? How is this horse shit?

When did the definition of conceptual include not having a ‘big land army’? Al Qaeda has a full chain of command, so does Hezbullah, as does the PLO. These are very real enemies with full funding, and real weapons. That is how it is horse shit.

Equally when did I ever say ‘appease’? (I’m serious, tell me). I’ve said repeatedly we just shouldn’t give people a reason to hate us. It’s not contraversial. Its not some kooky conspiracy.

So we are supposed to change in order to be nicer to the terrorists so that they won’t kill us anymore? If that’s not appeasement, pal - please tell me what is.
[/quote]

The Financial Times reported about a year ago that Al Queda recruiting in Iraq was up about 400%. Christ knows where they got that statistic, but the point is obvious, that war has outraged billions around the world. Some have now become extremists as can be witnessed by the bombings avery two minutes in Iraq. Hezbollah and the PLO have been all but dismantled, as has Al Queda (at least thats what W. would have us believe). In fact I do believe him. They don’t so much have training camps now as simply an ideology and lots of heroes. I wholly support dismantaling any remaining infrastructure, who wouldn’t?. But what then? Because the bombings won’t stop. You need minimal knowledge and equipment to make a bomb I’ve been told. Would a better approach than all this sabre rattling and blustering be to actually try to win hearts and minds? How about not telling lies to go to what looks awfully like a race war again. How about admitting a mistake for once? How about not seeing the world as either potential markets or potential resources? I imagine many Islamic extremists have traced American history from the genocide against the Native Americans and keeping of slaves. They probably read about the plight of (in no particular order) Philipinos, Haitians, Cubans, Vietnamese, Nicaraguans, Panamanians, etc. who have all died at American hands. They probably saw which nation is the only one to have nuked somebody. Hell, they probably even heard about Coke killing union leaders in Colombia, not to mention Americas giving of weapons and intelligence to both Iran and Iraq during their war in the eighties helping prolong and further bloody it. The key to shaking of such a horific past is to act responsibly and most importantly legitimately today. That doesn’t have to mean appeasement, that means winning the hearts and minds of people away from terrorist recruiters. That is not done by dropping bombs on them, stifling their cultures or allowing your corporations to run roughshod over local economies and rivals. Obviously this applies to other Western nations too, but America is the world’s leader as she keeps reminding the 6 billion of us who don’t live there.