London Bombing

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Ah, rain, I just get tired of hearing your “who de fuk are you” “You still living with mom and dad pussy” “Fuck em all let Allah sort em out” rhetoric. That gets ollllllld!

That’s fine if you have a problem with what I said. We are here to debate and counter. But when you make shit up - “Fuck em all let Allah sort em out” - then I have to wonder why you even post and use my name. I didn’t say that. But eveidently that’s not going to matter too much to you.

rainman, how many years passed between the first terrorist bombing in New York and 9/11? Do you realize that these guys work on a very slow timeline or are you on a slow timeline?

I don’t know the exact timeline, but we had The USS Cole attack, the U.S. Embassy attacked, and other terrorist attacks inside of an 8 year window. We are closing in on 4 years, now and no attacks on U.S. soil. What is your point?

You said they are killers of women and children. Do you realize many more women and children have been slaughtered in Iraq by U.S. munitions THEN from all of the terrorist acts combined.

Are you equating our involvement in Iraq with terrorism? It sounds like it to me. The difference is - and please try to pay attention here - the terrorists TARGET the innocent SPECIFICALLY. They hide amoung thew women and children. They hide in the Mosques. Then they blow them up if they don’t cooperate. Thw Coalition makes every effort to minimize the civilian casualties. Remember Fallujah? Remember our soldiers being killed by going door to door and trying to get the terrorist element out of Fallujah? Why did they go door to door when the safe play qould have been to turn Fallujah into a prking lot? Give up? To minimize civilian casualties.

When they blow up a building they are cowardly terrorists metioned in every GW speech. When we blow up a city with hundreds of non combatant casaluties including children it’s not reported.

Name a city that we have “blown up”. If you can’t find a report of a “blown up” city in the liberal anti-war rags that pass as journalism, you have a very weak position.

Rain, how can you justify the killing of any children? And, I’m tired of hearing the “Zap Brannigan” rationale of “It’s a shitty deal for them, but necessary crap”. Easy to say when your childrens or own life isn’t under fire!

If my children were “under fire” I would do what many fathers have done: take them to a safer place. That’s easy enough to do when the evil U.S. led band of murdering thugs take special precautions at the risk of their own life to try and ensure the safety of innocents. That’s something that the imported terrorists would never do.

You are just proving my point that the ABB crowd has transposed their hatred of Bush to the War on Terror. Defending the terrorists by painting us to look as evil as they are is truly a deplorable position to take.
[/quote]

It is the concept of sanctuary and it is something the US and other civilized military powers abide by.

Fallujah is an excellent example. The US designed the battle plan to minimize civilian casualties. They also warned the terrorists and the population and gave them a chance to surrender (psyops). The Red Army, the Nazi’s, take you pick would not have done that. Fallujah would not have stood for one day against a combined arms assault or even against an armored division attack. We chose not to do that.

When the enemy uses terror and fights using irregular tactics then they have given up their right to the concept of sanctuary. Sanctuary is the military concept of mercy on the battlefield and is granted to opponents who offer the same.

Our enemy in this war are not soldiers, they are murderers. The US didn’t cause the murder of commuters in London or office workers in NYC, the terrorists did.

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
hedo & vegetable,

sheep…[/quote]

(read in Stewies voice)

Wow you’re so clever, your like the first person to ever call me vegatable… How ever do you come up with these witty remarks you cute little guy you. No really you’re so smart, I bet you’re like the smartest person in the world. Like how smart you are, because my name is vegita, yet you called me vegatable, and they both start with veg, but yet you were using vegatable as a way of making fun of me. You’re just so smart.

V

Elk -

There is no use responding to this crap.

Tell you what - you go ahead and make up a post for me. You haven’t gotten a damn thing I’ve said right yet - so why even debate you? Your ears are pinned back at anyone that supports this war, and you have no problem putting words in their mouths.

Your rants are not even supported by fact - unless you now consider Al Jazeera a valid dependable news source.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
jlesk68 wrote:
hedo & vegetable,

sheep…

(read in Stewies voice)

Wow you’re so clever, your like the first person to ever call me vegatable… How ever do you come up with these witty remarks you cute little guy you. No really you’re so smart, I bet you’re like the smartest person in the world. Like how smart you are, because my name is vegita, yet you called me vegatable, and they both start with veg, but yet you were using vegatable as a way of making fun of me. You’re just so smart.

V[/quote]

Whatever…

[quote]JeffR wrote:
little johnny wrote:

“What the hell are you talking about JeffR? You make little sense at best. And the English don’t need to be blessed. We, like the rest of the world need America to stop mythologising itself and considering itself the ‘city on the hill’ and the ‘world’s leader’.”

We are the city on the hill and the world’s leader. However, we don’t forget our friends. Especially, when they are in need.[/quote]

Self proclaimed, little Jeffy, self proclaimed city on the hill. I never elected the USA, but then that doesn’t matter as the current situation was built on the blood of Native Americans, Philipinos, Central Americans, Carribean, etc etc etc. Saying ‘we’re the world’s leader’ sounds a lot like what the British used to say in their Empire days. Rudyard Kipling named it the ‘White man’s burden’, although he was actually writing that poem to encourage the US to invade the Philipines which they did.

[quote]“We need Blair to listen to the people when 80% say don’t go to war.”

Why did you re-elect him? Seems like your numbers are “suspiciously round.”[/quote]

Our electoral system is not proportional, just as Americas isn’t. Blair recieved roughly a third of the vote, but there is a role-over effect from his enourmous prvious majority. You need to check your facts.

[quote]“We need people to get over this anarchistic, Hobbesian view of the world”

Nice little phrase. Unfortunately, it’s nonsense. We obviously are striving AGAINST anarchy. We’ve been quite clear: Democracy is the goal.[/quote]

But since this ‘striving against anarchy’ we have had Bali, Madrid and now London, not to mention the myriad bombs in Iraq which has now become a terror breeding ground. Sounds fairly out of control to me.

[quote]“and in short to stop this abstract ‘war on terror’ which serves nothing but money-making.”

So ignorant and wrong. It’s unfortunate you can’t give credit to the sacrifices made in this war.[/quote]

The reason I protest is because people are giving their lives needlessly, you may have seen that 47 of my countrymen did in London yesterday. Thats why I’ve increasingly dedacated my life to speaking out against the injustice of these soldiers and civilians who have died in vein.

[quote]“‘Blessing’ and God have nothing to with it.”

Well, damn you then!!![/quote]

Why do you resort to such pettiness?

[quote]“Talking to the little man in the sky in ineffectual when compared to avoiding invading and subverting peoples countries simply to further your own society’s obscene consumption all under the hypocritical and wholly inacurate banner of ‘spreading democracy’.”

Well, well, well. I thought we were spreading “anarchy?” You are a confused little fellow.[/quote]

America is spreading anarchy UNDER THE BANNER of democracy. Maybe you need new reading glasses? I don’t think the concept of masquarade can be put more simply than ‘under the banner of’. Maybe if I wrote phonetically that would help?

You’re so lovely.

I’m not so much spewing bile as suggesting that the direction the America is taking has obviously stepped on toes and a softly softly aproach might save my fellow countrymen in the future. I would consider ‘bile’ as calling people a ‘bitch’.

Yes bring the old anti-French racist bollocks into it.

[quote]Too bad you can’t.

I wish you ill will.

JeffR

[/quote]

I hope you don’t consider your behaviour to be adult, you calling me ‘little Johnny’, ‘bitch’ and then wishing me ‘ill will’. Maybe you’re the one who needs to grow up and wake up.

[quote]hedo wrote:
It is the concept of sanctuary and it is something the US and other civilized military powers abide by.

Fallujah is an excellent example. The US designed the battle plan to minimize civilian casualties. They also warned the terrorists and the population and gave them a chance to surrender (psyops). The Red Army, the Nazi’s, take you pick would not have done that. Fallujah would not have stood for one day against a combined arms assault or even against an armored division attack. We chose not to do that.

When the enemy uses terror and fights using irregular tactics then they have given up their right to the concept of sanctuary. Sanctuary is the military concept of mercy on the battlefield and is granted to opponents who offer the same.

Our enemy in this war are not soldiers, they are murderers. The US didn’t cause the murder of commuters in London or office workers in NYC, the terrorists did.[/quote]

Hedo hit the nail right on the head!

The only people left in the towns American troops surround are the bad guys.

Our troops are just trying to do their jobs and come home in one piece.

Unintended civilian causualties happen unfortunately. The troops have very little if any control over this.

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
Vegita wrote:
jlesk68 wrote:
hedo & vegetable,

sheep…

(read in Stewies voice)

Wow you’re so clever, your like the first person to ever call me vegatable… How ever do you come up with these witty remarks you cute little guy you. No really you’re so smart, I bet you’re like the smartest person in the world. Like how smart you are, because my name is vegita, yet you called me vegatable, and they both start with veg, but yet you were using vegatable as a way of making fun of me. You’re just so smart.

V

Whatever…[/quote]

Can dish it but can’t take it?

V

[quote]hedo wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Ah, rain, I just get tired of hearing your “who de fuk are you” “You still living with mom and dad pussy” “Fuck em all let Allah sort em out” rhetoric. That gets ollllllld!

That’s fine if you have a problem with what I said. We are here to debate and counter. But when you make shit up - “Fuck em all let Allah sort em out” - then I have to wonder why you even post and use my name. I didn’t say that. But eveidently that’s not going to matter too much to you.

rainman, how many years passed between the first terrorist bombing in New York and 9/11? Do you realize that these guys work on a very slow timeline or are you on a slow timeline?

I don’t know the exact timeline, but we had The USS Cole attack, the U.S. Embassy attacked, and other terrorist attacks inside of an 8 year window. We are closing in on 4 years, now and no attacks on U.S. soil. What is your point?

You said they are killers of women and children. Do you realize many more women and children have been slaughtered in Iraq by U.S. munitions THEN from all of the terrorist acts combined.

Are you equating our involvement in Iraq with terrorism? It sounds like it to me. The difference is - and please try to pay attention here - the terrorists TARGET the innocent SPECIFICALLY. They hide amoung thew women and children. They hide in the Mosques. Then they blow them up if they don’t cooperate. Thw Coalition makes every effort to minimize the civilian casualties. Remember Fallujah? Remember our soldiers being killed by going door to door and trying to get the terrorist element out of Fallujah? Why did they go door to door when the safe play qould have been to turn Fallujah into a prking lot? Give up? To minimize civilian casualties.

When they blow up a building they are cowardly terrorists metioned in every GW speech. When we blow up a city with hundreds of non combatant casaluties including children it’s not reported.

Name a city that we have “blown up”. If you can’t find a report of a “blown up” city in the liberal anti-war rags that pass as journalism, you have a very weak position.

Rain, how can you justify the killing of any children? And, I’m tired of hearing the “Zap Brannigan” rationale of “It’s a shitty deal for them, but necessary crap”. Easy to say when your childrens or own life isn’t under fire!

If my children were “under fire” I would do what many fathers have done: take them to a safer place. That’s easy enough to do when the evil U.S. led band of murdering thugs take special precautions at the risk of their own life to try and ensure the safety of innocents. That’s something that the imported terrorists would never do.

You are just proving my point that the ABB crowd has transposed their hatred of Bush to the War on Terror. Defending the terrorists by painting us to look as evil as they are is truly a deplorable position to take.

It is the concept of sanctuary and it is something the US and other civilized military powers abide by.

Fallujah is an excellent example. The US designed the battle plan to minimize civilian casualties. They also warned the terrorists and the population and gave them a chance to surrender (psyops). The Red Army, the Nazi’s, take you pick would not have done that. Fallujah would not have stood for one day against a combined arms assault or even against an armored division attack. We chose not to do that.

When the enemy uses terror and fights using irregular tactics then they have given up their right to the concept of sanctuary. Sanctuary is the military concept of mercy on the battlefield and is granted to opponents who offer the same.

Our enemy in this war are not soldiers, they are murderers. The US didn’t cause the murder of commuters in London or office workers in NYC, the terrorists did.
[/quote]

Very good post!

Rain, what’s with the “you ABB’rs transfer your hate from dubya to the war” crap?

You are correct we don’t like this war and guess who took America there? Bush!!! So, doesn’t it make sense we are not going to be happy with him.

You keep talking like there is no connection between the two and we are just transferring our angst with something onto a totally unrelated object. Get a damned clue Ironhead!

Hedo, whether you are talking naval history relating to slavery or the fight against terrorism you like to put things in nice little boxes tailored to your viewpoint like other right wingers you lose credibility because you put everything into sean hannity esque propaganda.

Who give a rats ass what the nazi’s or any other army in the past would have done. We aint talking about the nazi’s.

Hedo, guess what, I don’t like assholes coming here blowing shit up and killing Americans either. But, you know where we differ on our ideas on how to stifle the problem.

I wouldn’t and don’t agree with invading a punk ass dictator who wasn’t a threat to us and creating a hot bed of terrorist training where thousands of live are needlessly wasted on both sides.

I would have squeezed the shit outta Afghanistan until Bin Laden was killed and I would have used special ops teams in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Europe, America, wherever a cell sprung up it would be covertly waxed for however long needed.

On the diplomatic side of the fence we would work to build better relations with the middle east and Saddam would have been kept nutless and contained until his own people decided to kill him and when that happened an arm would have been extended to whatever party did it and as good of a relationship as you can have with the middle east would have been attempted.

Not a rush to war from bullshit and doctored intelligence that has led to a quagmire where young Americans who otherwise would live productive lives with their families are dying everyday and terrorist acts are growing because of the lust of politicians in suits who had other priorities when their number was called.

Article on CNN about Muslims and Arabs speaking out…since everyone on here keeps asking where the Islamic and Arab voices are in this:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/08/london.muslims/index.html

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Rain, what’s with the “you ABB’rs transfer your hate from dubya to the war” crap?

You are correct we don’t like this war and guess who took America there? Bush!!! So, doesn’t it make sense we are not going to be happy with him.

You keep talking like there is no connection between the two and we are just transferring our angst with something onto a totally unrelated object. Get a damned clue Ironhead!
[/quote]

If there was a president in office that you had voted for, then the intelligence would no longer be ‘doctored’, our military would no longer bekillers of the young and the innocent, and you would be all for the war on terror.

You can cuss and rant all you want, but what you have said in your last 3 or 4 posts pretty much sums up your ABB anti-war stance. You might not see what you are doing, but it is quite apparent to me.

I find it laughably absurd that you actually sit here and rant about dead babies and doctored intelligence when your own party was spouting the exact same intell - where were you then? That’s right Clinton was in office and all was right with the world - he wouldn’t lie to you. Not about that.

Elk

I like clarity and I find it preferable to abstaction.

My viewpoints are well known and I argue based on those viewpoints, as do you, and I would think most others.

My comparison of the US military to the Red Army or Nazi’s was an analogy comparing tactics. The point of it was the US avoids civilian casualties to the point of taking casualties. Others have not, including our current foes.

Of course we have different opinions on how to deal with problems. That’s why we post em.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
hedo wrote:
It is the concept of sanctuary and it is something the US and other civilized military powers abide by.

Fallujah is an excellent example. The US designed the battle plan to minimize civilian casualties. They also warned the terrorists and the population and gave them a chance to surrender (psyops). The Red Army, the Nazi’s, take you pick would not have done that. Fallujah would not have stood for one day against a combined arms assault or even against an armored division attack. We chose not to do that.

When the enemy uses terror and fights using irregular tactics then they have given up their right to the concept of sanctuary. Sanctuary is the military concept of mercy on the battlefield and is granted to opponents who offer the same.

Our enemy in this war are not soldiers, they are murderers. The US didn’t cause the murder of commuters in London or office workers in NYC, the terrorists did.

Hedo hit the nail right on the head!

The only people left in the towns American troops surround are the bad guys.

Our troops are just trying to do their jobs and come home in one piece.

Unintended civilian causualties happen unfortunately. The troops have very little if any control over this.

[/quote]

Well said! The unfortunate (and unpopular by modern standards) truth is that the terrorism will not be put to rest untill it is fought with the same barbarism as the terrorists have. We, as a society, will not do this at this day and age. We did in the world wars, but not in this age of PC and legalism where we have so many activists worried about collateral damage.

If a harder line is drawn with the nations that harbor terrorists, then perhaps the “good” people of these nations will give them up rather than get their asses kicked.
Before you flame me for this, remember that no consideration has EVER been given to collateral damage BY the terrorists.

Also, keep in mind that the biggest military blunder in US history was when we became so conscious of collateral damage in Vietnam. (There was a ton of collateral damage in our “great” victory in WWII, just ask the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki)

Zap I can’t believe it but you have got it completely right in one of your posts. ANd bro trust me I have no hate for anyone on this board me and millions of muslims in London, Britain and all over the world stand united with our fellow countrymen in bringing these barbarians who planned such an atrocious crime to justice.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/July2005/07/c9692.html

http://ottawa.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=ot-ottmuslimldn20050708
http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=KI815035C&news_headline=mulsim_leaders_t_finsbury_park_mosk_condemn_attack

[quote]nabz wrote:
Zap I can’t believe it but you have got it completely right in one of your posts. ANd bro trust me I have no hate for anyone on this board me and millions of muslims in London, Britain and all over the world stand united with our fellow countrymen in bringing these barbarians who planned such an atrocious crime to justice.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/July2005/07/c9692.html

http://ottawa.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=ot-ottmuslimldn20050708
http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=KI815035C&news_headline=mulsim_leaders_t_finsbury_park_mosk_condemn_attack

http://www.mcb.org.uk/[/quote]

nabz

This topic interests me a lot. I have studied Islam a great deal since 9/11. A lot of what I read is scary. Other things I have studied give me hope that this generation of fanatics will die out, literally.

I am glad the Muslims are speaking out against terrorism. I understand many are under great threat not to do so. Don’t appease the murderer’s. Reject the bastards, they would kill you as quickly as me if given the chance.

Just started posted to this forum, so hopefully people wont breeze by this post.

When are people going to realize that terrorists hate the civilized, democratic world! This debate is awesome and is the exact reason why these terrorist hate us. Al-quaida is real and terrorism is real. When are the libs and peace-nicks going to wake up!

The terrorist want us to sulk in our pity, but us free willed, free spirited people will have a much greater resolve than these cowards and courageless piles of dung. Hopefully, this will wake the liberals and michael moore’s of the world realize their is an immanent threat to our civilized world.

God Bless those victims and those who have lost loved ones. And God Bless the USA and our Allies who will stand up to fight and destroy these bastards!!

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Rain, what’s with the “you ABB’rs transfer your hate from dubya to the war” crap?

You are correct we don’t like this war and guess who took America there? Bush!!! So, doesn’t it make sense we are not going to be happy with him.

You keep talking like there is no connection between the two and we are just transferring our angst with something onto a totally unrelated object. Get a damned clue Ironhead!

If there was a president in office that you had voted for, then the intelligence would no longer be ‘doctored’, our military would no longer bekillers of the young and the innocent, and you would be all for the war on terror.

You can cuss and rant all you want, but what you have said in your last 3 or 4 posts pretty much sums up your ABB anti-war stance. You might not see what you are doing, but it is quite apparent to me.

I find it laughably absurd that you actually sit here and rant about dead babies and doctored intelligence when your own party was spouting the exact same intell - where were you then? That’s right Clinton was in office and all was right with the world - he wouldn’t lie to you. Not about that.

[/quote]

That’s the biggest load of reeking steaming horseshit you have belched thus forth. If Clinton had pulled this, as I have stated before, I would have called bullshit because it’s the height of stupidity! You get off your own partisan soap box, if Clinton would have pulled this you would be labeling him a war criminal following the party line and regurgitating Hannity’s talking points!

[quote]hedo wrote:
nabz wrote:
Zap I can’t believe it but you have got it completely right in one of your posts. ANd bro trust me I have no hate for anyone on this board me and millions of muslims in London, Britain and all over the world stand united with our fellow countrymen in bringing these barbarians who planned such an atrocious crime to justice.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/July2005/07/c9692.html

http://ottawa.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=ot-ottmuslimldn20050708
http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=KI815035C&news_headline=mulsim_leaders_t_finsbury_park_mosk_condemn_attack

http://www.mcb.org.uk/

nabz

This topic interests me a great deal. I have studied Islam a great deal since 9/11. A lot of what I read is scary. Other things I have studied give me hope that this generation of fanatics will die out, literally.

I am glad the Muslims are speaking out against terrorism. I understand many are under great threat not to do so. Don’t appease the murderer’s. Reject the bastards, they would kill you as quickly as me if given the chance.

[/quote]

Trust me man,the majority are against it, terrorists are scum who I feel insult me by saying they are doing this in the name of Islam not only do they kill the innocent but their own people,like in places like Pakistan,Saudi etc threatening those who speak out against them or do not join in their cause with violence.I dont usually spew hate against anyone but they are people who I feel should be exterminated. There are good people and bad people in every race,religion,org,etc just know that the good far outweight the bad.

Kinda Regards

Nabz

[quote]hedo wrote:
nabz wrote:
Zap I can’t believe it but you have got it completely right in one of your posts. ANd bro trust me I have no hate for anyone on this board me and millions of muslims in London, Britain and all over the world stand united with our fellow countrymen in bringing these barbarians who planned such an atrocious crime to justice.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/July2005/07/c9692.html

http://ottawa.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=ot-ottmuslimldn20050708
http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=KI815035C&news_headline=mulsim_leaders_t_finsbury_park_mosk_condemn_attack

nabz

This topic interests me a great deal. I have studied Islam a great deal since 9/11. A lot of what I read is scary. Other things I have studied give me hope that this generation of fanatics will die out, literally.

I am glad the Muslims are speaking out against terrorism. I understand many are under great threat not to do so. Don’t appease the murderer’s. Reject the bastards, they would kill you as quickly as me if given the chance.

[/quote]

I like the fact that Muslims are calling for a fight against terror.

This calling for Muslim rejection of terror is easy here in America or England, but I think the hatred and fanaticism in the Arab states and their views about Israel, US and Iraq will not change.

To me there aren’t enough Arab states condemning terrorism, and I think many of them probably as a whole support the attacks…without openly saying so.

We need to root this out and eventually it won’t be an Islamic thing, but a terrorist thing. Islam needs to openly reject terrorism. When a cause is religious and fanatical, it can not be reasoned with.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
JustTheFacts,

You are wackier than JeffR.

Give it a rest![/quote]

Let me set the record straight - I’m more than willing to accept that radical Muslims pulled this bombing off in London - and 9/11 for that matter.

You and rain and Zap or whoever, can call me a nut job, conspiracy theorist, crazy - I really don’t care.

As the radical right gives the rebel yell for the US version of jihad - “yeeha”, and who also like to remind everyone that if it was up to them, the nukes would be flying - I merely point out that there has not been ONE SINGLE CONVICTION in connection to 9/11 and the one single case they made such a big deal about, was about to be TOSSED OUT.

Call me “CRAZY” - but wouldn’t you think for all the years of preparation and planning to pull off one of the greatest, grandiose, horrific crimes in HISTORY that lead to a WAR with another country, that they could actually convict just ONE SINGLE ARAB in connection with 9/11!

“In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper - either here in the United States or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere - that mentioned any aspect of the Sept. 11 plot.”
-FBI director Robert Mueller (cuckoo, cuckoo)

Question: What does 0+0+0+0+0=?
Answer: # of Arabs convicted for 9/11

If your getting any other answer to the equation besides ZERO - maybe YOU’RE the wacko.

So kindly pardon my skeptism on the London bombings.