Let's Process Our Feelings

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

So are you saying proceed with Hockey physically, even though Iraq would probably be upset if he knew and Hockey would be upset if he knew about Iraq? That’s not wrong to do?

Iraq knows that I’m dating, and is fine with that. Does that include sleeping with people usually as part of the unspoken piece?

Why do I know NONE of this? Why wasn’t I taught in school??

[/quote]

At this point, from what you’ve said, IMO, you have no obligation to curb your behavior for either man (especially not for the one that you’ve never even met)!

When I was single and in this stage, I would let women know that, yeah, I was still seeing other women. From my perspective, that includes at least the possibility of sex. They were free to express an opinion on that, and each of us decide what we were willing to live with.

I admire your desire to be honest and not hurt either man. I was similar when dating. I dealt with it by being honest about the basics (“Yeah, I see others”) but not getting into specifics (“I’m screwing 2 of them”).

In the end, of course, it’s whatever you personally are comfortable with, but it does seem like maybe you’re little hard on yourself (from my values perspective). [/quote]
This is just about how I feel concerning it.

[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Marriage is awesome.

Would recommend. [/quote]

You do realize you’re not going to see sensationalist news articles with the headline ‘Local Area Man and Woman Happily Married With Three Children for 19 years. Still Making Each Other Happy, Occasionally Sitting Quietly Together, Known to Watch TV and Oh Yeah Still Fucking up a Storm’ [/quote]

Mebbe, but let me get a bit financy on you, you need to weigh the risks.

Since there is basically a 50/50 chance of a divorce which can get really, really ugly and probably another 50/50 chance that I would be tied to a withered, nagging shrew just so that I would not effectively lose my kids, with all the consequences for their lives that would entail…

Also, unless I pin down a woman under 30 she is more likely to be a carousel rider than not, so I would be picking from a self selected pool where the chances are even less in my favor.

Its a fools bet.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Marriage is awesome.

Would recommend. [/quote]

You do realize you’re not going to see sensationalist news articles with the headline ‘Local Area Man and Woman Happily Married With Three Children for 19 years. Still Making Each Other Happy, Occasionally Sitting Quietly Together, Known to Watch TV and Oh Yeah Still Fucking up a Storm’ [/quote]

Mebbe, but let me get a bit financy on you, you need to weigh the risks.

Since there is basically a 50/50 chance of a divorce which can get really, really ugly and probably another 50/50 chance that I would be tied to a withered, nagging shrew just so that I would not effectively lose my kids, with all the consequences for their lives that would entail…

Also, unless I pin down a woman under 30 she is more likely to be a carousel rider than not, so I would be picking from a self selected pool where the chances are even less in my favor.

Its a fools bet.[/quote]

Teen vag then?

Hahahahaha. Sorry.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Marriage is awesome.

Would recommend. [/quote]

You do realize you’re not going to see sensationalist news articles with the headline ‘Local Area Man and Woman Happily Married With Three Children for 19 years. Still Making Each Other Happy, Occasionally Sitting Quietly Together, Known to Watch TV and Oh Yeah Still Fucking up a Storm’ [/quote]

Mebbe, but let me get a bit financy on you, you need to weigh the risks.

Since there is basically a 50/50 chance of a divorce which can get really, really ugly and probably another 50/50 chance that I would be tied to a withered, nagging shrew just so that I would not effectively lose my kids, with all the consequences for their lives that would entail…

Also, unless I pin down a woman under 30 she is more likely to be a carousel rider than not, so I would be picking from a self selected pool where the chances are even less in my favor.

Its a fools bet.[/quote]

I think you’re being completely unrealistic.

The nagging shrew is more likely to be overweight than withered.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

So are you saying proceed with Hockey physically, even though Iraq would probably be upset if he knew and Hockey would be upset if he knew about Iraq? That’s not wrong to do?

Iraq knows that I’m dating, and is fine with that. Does that include sleeping with people usually as part of the unspoken piece?

Why do I know NONE of this? Why wasn’t I taught in school??

[/quote]

At this point, from what you’ve said, IMO, you have no obligation to curb your behavior for either man (especially not for the one that you’ve never even met)!

When I was single and in this stage, I would let women know that, yeah, I was still seeing other women. From my perspective, that includes at least the possibility of sex. They were free to express an opinion on that, and each of us decide what we were willing to live with.

I admire your desire to be honest and not hurt either man. I was similar when dating. I dealt with it by being honest about the basics (“Yeah, I see others”) but not getting into specifics (“I’m screwing 2 of them”).

In the end, of course, it’s whatever you personally are comfortable with, but it does seem like maybe you’re little hard on yourself (from my values perspective). [/quote]

Okay. That gives me some time to figure out whether I’m ready to be exclusive with Hockey and see where it goes.

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Marriage is awesome.

Would recommend. [/quote]

You do realize you’re not going to see sensationalist news articles with the headline ‘Local Area Man and Woman Happily Married With Three Children for 19 years. Still Making Each Other Happy, Occasionally Sitting Quietly Together, Known to Watch TV and Oh Yeah Still Fucking up a Storm’ [/quote]

Mebbe, but let me get a bit financy on you, you need to weigh the risks.

Since there is basically a 50/50 chance of a divorce which can get really, really ugly and probably another 50/50 chance that I would be tied to a withered, nagging shrew just so that I would not effectively lose my kids, with all the consequences for their lives that would entail…

Also, unless I pin down a woman under 30 she is more likely to be a carousel rider than not, so I would be picking from a self selected pool where the chances are even less in my favor.

Its a fools bet.[/quote]

Teen vag then?

Hahahahaha. Sorry.[/quote]

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Marriage is awesome.

Would recommend. [/quote]

You do realize you’re not going to see sensationalist news articles with the headline ‘Local Area Man and Woman Happily Married With Three Children for 19 years. Still Making Each Other Happy, Occasionally Sitting Quietly Together, Known to Watch TV and Oh Yeah Still Fucking up a Storm’ [/quote]

Mebbe, but let me get a bit financy on you, you need to weigh the risks.

Since there is basically a 50/50 chance of a divorce which can get really, really ugly and probably another 50/50 chance that I would be tied to a withered, nagging shrew just so that I would not effectively lose my kids, with all the consequences for their lives that would entail…

Also, unless I pin down a woman under 30 she is more likely to be a carousel rider than not, so I would be picking from a self selected pool where the chances are even less in my favor.

Its a fools bet.[/quote]

Teen vag then?

Hahahahaha. Sorry.[/quote]

[quote]red04 wrote:
The way this thread turned out is really fascinating.[/quote]

Fascinating like. . . a train wreck?

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:
The way this thread turned out is really fascinating.[/quote]

Fascinating like. . . a train wreck?[/quote]

No, like I am extremely interested in it and check it every time it has a new post. There’s your perspective on, and details about your dating process, along with multiple male perspectives with differing characteristics(like for example the polar opposites of Orion and Chusin), and also what I feel to be a very genuine tone to the conversation only allowed for by the anonymity granted by the internet. That last opinion could be wrong, or biased by my personal friendships, but it affects my thoughts of the thread either way.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:
The way this thread turned out is really fascinating.[/quote]

Fascinating like. . . a train wreck?[/quote]

No, like I am extremely interested in it and check it every time it has a new post. There’s your perspective on, and details about your dating process, along with multiple male perspectives with differing characteristics(like for example the polar opposites of Orion and Chusin), and also what I feel to be a very genuine tone to the conversation only allowed for by the anonymity granted by the internet. That last opinion could be wrong, or biased by my personal friendships, but it affects my thoughts of the thread either way.[/quote]

I’m willing to bet that both Em and I having experience as therapists is a large part of that last observation.

But I have no doubt that our communication would be the same in person.

Couple of well-trained social workers! :-)[/quote]

Yes, I’m pretty open in person, which perhaps doesn’t serve me well when dating. I’m open here not because it’s anonymous but because none of my close friends are men. They’re either women or my ex-husband. The women I’m close to have no more clue than I do, almost all of them married young and have stayed that way. My best friend - another social worker/therapist - and I were dating at the same time back a couple of years ago, which only produced a comedy of cluelessness. I tell her everything, but our conversations go like this:

One of us: “What is he saying??”

The other: “I don’t know!”

We mean well and try to be good advisors to one another, but have some limitations. Happily we’re similarly optimistic, so we tend to assume things are going well, which true or not is reassuring, so there’s value in the sharing.

But I’ve done a lot of the thinking and changing I needed to do based on the things being discussed in here. Maybe the value of anonymous exchange comes in people being willing to risk hurting my feelings, which my friends would be reluctant to do. But how can I change if I can’t tell what’s wrong?

I had a dream about this thread awhile back.

Em ran a nice little bed and breakfast. It was two stories tall, and the upstairs had a shared balcony that ran around the building. Double doors opened up from the rooms onto the balcony. Downstairs had a fenced and walled-in patio with some nice outdoor seating and some shrubbery, maybe even a fountain. The main visiting area was along the front, a long room that was like a miniature version of Versailles’ Hall of Mirrors, arches and chandeliers too – although not nearly as extravagant. There was a sign across one side welcoming visitors, lit up in a bunch of small incandescent lightbulbs.

It was a nice comfortable place. I remember for sure that csulli was staying in a room upstairs, a semi-permanent visitor. Mostly though, I remember the time spent in that hall, looking out the windows, talking. I can’t remember the view though; I just remember the arches.

Kind of random.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I had a dream about this thread awhile back.

Em ran a nice little bed and breakfast. It was two stories tall, and the upstairs had a shared balcony that ran around the building. Double doors opened up from the rooms onto the balcony. Downstairs had a fenced and walled-in patio with some nice outdoor seating and some shrubbery, maybe even a fountain. The main visiting area was along the front, a long room that was like a miniature version of Versailles’ Hall of Mirrors, arches and chandeliers too – although not nearly as extravagant. There was a sign across one side welcoming visitors, lit up in a bunch of small incandescent lightbulbs.

It was a nice comfortable place. I remember for sure that csulli was staying in a room upstairs, a semi-permanent visitor. Mostly though, I remember the time spent in that hall, looking out the windows, talking. I can’t remember the view though; I just remember the arches.

Kind of random.[/quote]

Ha! Maybe that’s my path to riches. . . a B&B with a really nice gym. People could talk about not being able to find jeans that fit, just got dumped, whether they eat clean or not, and so on.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:
The way this thread turned out is really fascinating.[/quote]

Fascinating like. . . a train wreck?[/quote]

No, like I am extremely interested in it and check it every time it has a new post. There’s your perspective on, and details about your dating process, along with multiple male perspectives with differing characteristics(like for example the polar opposites of Orion and Chusin), and also what I feel to be a very genuine tone to the conversation only allowed for by the anonymity granted by the internet. That last opinion could be wrong, or biased by my personal friendships, but it affects my thoughts of the thread either way.[/quote]

I’m willing to bet that both Em and I having experience as therapists is a large part of that last observation.

But I have no doubt that our communication would be the same in person.

Couple of well-trained social workers! :-)[/quote]

Yes, I’m pretty open in person, which perhaps doesn’t serve me well when dating. I’m open here not because it’s anonymous but because none of my close friends are men. They’re either women or my ex-husband. The women I’m close to have no more clue than I do, almost all of them married young and have stayed that way. My best friend - another social worker/therapist - and I were dating at the same time back a couple of years ago, which only produced a comedy of cluelessness. I tell her everything, but our conversations go like this:

One of us: “What is he saying??”

The other: “I don’t know!”

We mean well and try to be good advisors to one another, but have some limitations. Happily we’re similarly optimistic, so we tend to assume things are going well, which true or not is reassuring, so there’s value in the sharing.

But I’ve done a lot of the thinking and changing I needed to do based on the things being discussed in here. Maybe the value of anonymous exchange comes in people being willing to risk hurting my feelings, which my friends would be reluctant to do. But how can I change if I can’t tell what’s wrong?[/quote]

I was rethinking some of this: A) I’ve decided my closest friends would hurt my feelings if they thought it would help me. B) It occurs to me that I have access to men but that talking to them honestly about this stuff would be awkward as all hell, so it probably is the anonymity of the internet that allows it.

I think I need to process my feelings.

I would like to thank everyone that recommended Iron John because even though I have not read all of it yet, between that and the book “Models” I think I had one or two ephiphanies.

In Iron John, Bly writes about initiation rites and how they are important to turn boys into men. The usual procedure seems to be that men raid the area where women and children live and despite the womens mock resistance carry the boy away.

Maybe to a sacred place, maybe to a hut they built just for him.

There, they break the boy so that the man can emerge and they give him a physical reminder of his new status, maybe they knock out one tooth, maybe they give him a scar, maybe he gets circumcised, it does not really matter.

When he returns to the village he gets re-introduced, even to his own mother, who pretends not to recognize him, as a man, his life in the realm of women is over.

Women are born, men are made by other men.

Do we have something like this today?

No, we dont.

In this day and age, with the high divorce rates, single mothers, predominantly female kindergarden, elementary school and highschool teachers it is entirely possible for a young male, not man, to grow up without male guidance or even a male role model altogether.

Add to that what Rollo Thomassi calls the “Female Imperative”, basically a gynolatric society that is deeply suspicious of male virtues, and said young male does not even know what he is lacking, because he has integrated the female point of view into his core personality, so not only will he never sever the emotional umbilical cord, he will actively fight any attempt to sever it, he does not want
to be unplugged.

Thus, the primal fear of a young boy to be disapproved of and abandoned by his mother, which would mean his death, is in many cases prolongued into adulthood.

Mark Manson in his book “Models” writes about how being vulnerable and opening up to a woman can create a deep and lasting emotional connection.

Now, I know, that goes against standard Red Pill doctrine, at least in part, because the orthodox view is that as long as you are aloof and unknowable you keep her interest and you lose it the moment you show any sign of weakness, doubt or insecurity. Now, even if an alpha showed some of it and it would help him building a closer and healthier relationship it would be explained away by saying that he has such a high SMV that he can get away with it.

This, I no longer believe.

It is often said that if an alpha does one thing and a beta does the same, that the very same action will be seen differently by women, I dare suggest that this is not true. The reason why women respond differently is because it is not and I repeat not the same thing.

When an alpha opens up to a woman he does not beg his mommy to dress and clean his wounds, he does not ask his mommy for forgiveness for his sins, he does not ask his mommy for approval for the decisions he made, he just tells her his story and how he came to be the man he is now.

The beta of course, never having left the world of women, does all of these things and therein lies the difference.

As should be common knowledge around these here parts, the main weapon of feminism is shame and ostracism.

They try to shame us into fat acceptance, they try to shame us into believing that fat, foulmouthed sluts are equal to, if not better, than kind, attractive and caring women and if anyone questions their bullshit and stands up to them he or she is cast out.

Now, who can be shamed into submission, who can be threathened with ostracism, who must bow, because he cannot stand on his own two feet?

Boys, not men.

In short, feminism as a whole, behaves like a toxic mother.

The deep suspicion feminism holds for any form of a healthy masculinity, with an agenda of its own, is due to the fact that they want you on your knees, they dont want you to grow up, they dont want you to cut the cord, because then…

…you are immune.

Then you are free.

PS: The reason why this post looks like it is not adressing this forum is because it does not. I plan to post it somewhere else.

Therefore criticism is highly welcome, constructive or otherwise, though on this forum, you know, I dont think that an invitation is needed.

This is the best thing I’ve ever read by you.

It’s making me rethink my own relationship with my sons and how they relate to their mother.

So, thank you for that.