[quote]sen say wrote:
I can’t read all 20 pages…Emmy Q…didn’t you have some dude that was perfect for a while there?[/quote]
I’m pretty sure she’s had 3 or 4 …
lol
I’ve neglected this thread. There’s a few things I’ll reply to, just haven’t yet.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
…whom I can make feel safe because I’m steadfast.
[/quote]
sigh…
It’s a shame you’re just a fabrication of the internet. I wish there were females like that in real life.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
AND, why did no one tell me that EVERY SINGLE GROWNUP in therapy is suicidal this time of year? CHUSHIN? Why didn’t you alert me? I thought last week was bad, but this week they’re going through 6-8 kleenex each. My shoulders are so tight I feel like they’re going to snap.
[/quote]
Em, I’m afraid that divorce season is coming in February, so get prepared
TQB
I’ve been at odds with some feelings lately. Last year in January I started having panic attacks. When the first one happened I really flipped out. It was at work when I was inside the rake of a barge doing some repairs. I got out of there as soon as I could and went to the office. The HR lady sent me to Med Plus and they gave me some ativan. That calmed me down some and I got in touch with a therapist through my insurance and went for a visit right away. The next week I went to one of my regular AA meetings. I started telling a good friend and mentor about what had happened and straight away he says that I relapsed and engaged in drug seeking behavior. An MD saying that going to an MD for the typical treatment of an acute event struck me as odd, so I pressed on a little. He didn’t have much to say other than that ativan was the wrong drug for a drug addict to have taken for that. I replied that if it was just about getting high, I could have scored some oxy or opana off of just about any of my co-workers. We agreed to disagree and moved on.
Then last month I was talking to the same guy. Mainly about the sleep deprivation and anxiety I was having. I was really happy to say that the 5-htp and theanine I started taking was working really well and I hadn’t felt this good in at least the past year. First thing out of his mouth was “Better living through chemistry, huh? If thats not a relapse I don’t know what is.”. So I asked “Is a turkey sandwich and a cup of green tea a fucking relapse now?”. That kind of pissed me off. He said that since I was manipulating my brain chemistry that it was, and I need to seriously reflect on what I’ve been doing. If it wasn’t a relapse, it was pretty damn close.
So the last Friday of the month rolls around and it’s time for the chips for everybody who got sober in that month in increments of years. I missed that one in October, so they gave me my 11 year chip in November. The thing that struck me though was that the room was really subdued, like little golf clap, when usually they are all fired up. The next guy gets his and the crowd goes wild. Thats when it occurs to me that my friend may have shared his opinion of whether or not I relapsed with other people. So now I feel kind of estranged and betrayed by a person that I’ve really looked up to over the years. This is on the heels of one of the more difficult and dynamic times in my life, when I could really use the encouragement of a peer group I have come to rely on.
This all came to a head in my mind tonight when my wife asked why I wasn’t going. Then I just cut loose with all of it. She was kind of blown away by it all and had no idea that I was in such turmoil. Honestly, neither did I.
Then I had a cup of Starbucks mint cocoa, and now I can’t sleep. Thats not a relapse, is it?
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Then I had a cup of Starbucks mint cocoa, and now I can’t sleep. Thats not a relapse, is it?
[/quote]
Its all a matter of degrees, all life is chemistry as they say so some of it is bound to make you feel better or worse.
If Starbucks mint cocoa makes you piss your bed, or get into fisticuffs or makes you wake up next to people you dont know and really do not want to know I would stop using it.
If it does not, why stop?
I think there is a substance out there for everyone that they cannot handle, for me that would be something as banal as nicotine.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
I’ve been at odds with some feelings lately. Last year in January I started having panic attacks. When the first one happened I really flipped out. It was at work when I was inside the rake of a barge doing some repairs. I got out of there as soon as I could and went to the office. The HR lady sent me to Med Plus and they gave me some ativan. That calmed me down some and I got in touch with a therapist through my insurance and went for a visit right away. The next week I went to one of my regular AA meetings. I started telling a good friend and mentor about what had happened and straight away he says that I relapsed and engaged in drug seeking behavior. An MD saying that going to an MD for the typical treatment of an acute event struck me as odd, so I pressed on a little. He didn’t have much to say other than that ativan was the wrong drug for a drug addict to have taken for that. I replied that if it was just about getting high, I could have scored some oxy or opana off of just about any of my co-workers. We agreed to disagree and moved on.
Then last month I was talking to the same guy. Mainly about the sleep deprivation and anxiety I was having. I was really happy to say that the 5-htp and theanine I started taking was working really well and I hadn’t felt this good in at least the past year. First thing out of his mouth was “Better living through chemistry, huh? If thats not a relapse I don’t know what is.”. So I asked “Is a turkey sandwich and a cup of green tea a fucking relapse now?”. That kind of pissed me off. He said that since I was manipulating my brain chemistry that it was, and I need to seriously reflect on what I’ve been doing. If it wasn’t a relapse, it was pretty damn close.
So the last Friday of the month rolls around and it’s time for the chips for everybody who got sober in that month in increments of years. I missed that one in October, so they gave me my 11 year chip in November. The thing that struck me though was that the room was really subdued, like little golf clap, when usually they are all fired up. The next guy gets his and the crowd goes wild. Thats when it occurs to me that my friend may have shared his opinion of whether or not I relapsed with other people. So now I feel kind of estranged and betrayed by a person that I’ve really looked up to over the years. This is on the heels of one of the more difficult and dynamic times in my life, when I could really use the encouragement of a peer group I have come to rely on.
This all came to a head in my mind tonight when my wife asked why I wasn’t going. Then I just cut loose with all of it. She was kind of blown away by it all and had no idea that I was in such turmoil. Honestly, neither did I.
Then I had a cup of Starbucks mint cocoa, and now I can’t sleep. Thats not a relapse, is it?
[/quote]
What’s the point of a support group if after 10+ years, all the trust and reputation you have built doesn’t equate to your word meaning shit? If you are good with it and you know it isn’t a narcotic and it isn’t cheating to you, that’s whats important. If they are worth a shit, and it’s worth that much to you, you should go to a meeting and air it out. If they don’t support you, then maybe you don’t need them or that type of support group. Seems a rather quick sort of judgement and a rather bullshit way of applauding an accomplishment you earned. I’d give it back and tell them you will accept it when they give it to you correctly, without the plastic applause and without the passive alienation.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]sen say wrote:
I can’t read all 20 pages…Emmy Q…didn’t you have some dude that was perfect for a while there?[/quote]
I’m pretty sure she’s had 3 or 4 …
lol[/quote]
HEY. I don’t think I ever indicated that the smart guy or the hunter was perfect. I was trying to broaden my horizons.
I did think Tim was perfect, but I guess was mistaken. On the other hand, I’m looking to replicate a lot of what I had with him, and I know now exactly how I want to feel in a relationship, except without the niggling worries about self-destructiveness (his, not mine).
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
I’ve been at odds with some feelings lately. Last year in January I started having panic attacks. When the first one happened I really flipped out. It was at work when I was inside the rake of a barge doing some repairs. I got out of there as soon as I could and went to the office. The HR lady sent me to Med Plus and they gave me some ativan. That calmed me down some and I got in touch with a therapist through my insurance and went for a visit right away. The next week I went to one of my regular AA meetings. I started telling a good friend and mentor about what had happened and straight away he says that I relapsed and engaged in drug seeking behavior. An MD saying that going to an MD for the typical treatment of an acute event struck me as odd, so I pressed on a little. He didn’t have much to say other than that ativan was the wrong drug for a drug addict to have taken for that. I replied that if it was just about getting high, I could have scored some oxy or opana off of just about any of my co-workers. We agreed to disagree and moved on.
Then last month I was talking to the same guy. Mainly about the sleep deprivation and anxiety I was having. I was really happy to say that the 5-htp and theanine I started taking was working really well and I hadn’t felt this good in at least the past year. First thing out of his mouth was “Better living through chemistry, huh? If thats not a relapse I don’t know what is.”. So I asked “Is a turkey sandwich and a cup of green tea a fucking relapse now?”. That kind of pissed me off. He said that since I was manipulating my brain chemistry that it was, and I need to seriously reflect on what I’ve been doing. If it wasn’t a relapse, it was pretty damn close.
So the last Friday of the month rolls around and it’s time for the chips for everybody who got sober in that month in increments of years. I missed that one in October, so they gave me my 11 year chip in November. The thing that struck me though was that the room was really subdued, like little golf clap, when usually they are all fired up. The next guy gets his and the crowd goes wild. Thats when it occurs to me that my friend may have shared his opinion of whether or not I relapsed with other people. So now I feel kind of estranged and betrayed by a person that I’ve really looked up to over the years. This is on the heels of one of the more difficult and dynamic times in my life, when I could really use the encouragement of a peer group I have come to rely on.
This all came to a head in my mind tonight when my wife asked why I wasn’t going. Then I just cut loose with all of it. She was kind of blown away by it all and had no idea that I was in such turmoil. Honestly, neither did I.
Then I had a cup of Starbucks mint cocoa, and now I can’t sleep. Thats not a relapse, is it?
[/quote]
I would share your feelings with the group. I think the majority of substance abusers are self-medicating something, and one of the challenges of abstaining is figuring out what and dealing with it. One ativan during a panic attack does not, in my (professional) opinion, a relapse make, but obviously people differ. I would bear in mind that your friend is expressing concern, though not in a way that’s helpful to you. But I would assume his intentions are good.
I think you should tell the group about your disappointment and then, as Eminem said, shake it off and keep moving.
And I’m sorry about the panic attack. Those suck mightily.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]sen say wrote:
I can’t read all 20 pages…Emmy Q…didn’t you have some dude that was perfect for a while there?[/quote]
I’m pretty sure she’s had 3 or 4 …
lol[/quote]
HEY. I don’t think I ever indicated that the smart guy or the hunter was perfect. I was trying to broaden my horizons.
I did think Tim was perfect, but I guess was mistaken. On the other hand, I’m looking to replicate a lot of what I had with him, and I know now exactly how I want to feel in a relationship, except without the niggling worries about self-destructiveness (his, not mine).[/quote]
You’re shopping like a lady. Try it on, wear it out if you like it, if it doesn’t fit or continue to fit your fancy then return it. I’ll bet you will go through this phase until you meet a guy that makes you insecure and possessive of him. Just hope he’s as classy to you as you are to your fools. 
[quote]TQB wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
AND, why did no one tell me that EVERY SINGLE GROWNUP in therapy is suicidal this time of year? CHUSHIN? Why didn’t you alert me? I thought last week was bad, but this week they’re going through 6-8 kleenex each. My shoulders are so tight I feel like they’re going to snap.
[/quote]
Em, I’m afraid that divorce season is coming in February, so get prepared
TQB[/quote]
Unacceptable!
Actually, I’m already dealing with a lot of that. My goodness, adults can certainly get up to some mischief.
Just a side note, working with men (half my adult caseload, probably) has been fine. Interestingly, I’ve only have one seem to sexualize me in any way. His eyes tend to drop to my breasts if I’m wearing anything remotely fitted, then he remembers and snaps them back up. What’s the interesting part is that I knew him slightly in another context. Not enough for me to remember him beyond “you look familiar” but he knew me, so has probably looked at my breasts before.
Anyway, worry about men was unfounded. I seem to be able to curb my femme fatale-ness at work.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Push, I say on mine that I’m pretty affectionate and hope he will be, too. Originally I had physically affectionate, but then after peering at it for a bit through my pince-nez spectacles decided that it looked like I was advertising for casual sex. Also, there’s my work. To talk about my sexual desires explicitly seems unwise.
[/quote]
I think there is a way to do it without the casual sex advertisement worry. If you read what I wrote it surely doesn’t imply I’m all about lovin’ and leavin’ 'em. It just says if you’re truly interested in me be prepared to make sure the physical side of things is a primary component of the relationship. I’m not even remotely interested in being one of these guys who has to whine (legitimately) about a frigid wife no matter what her other qualities.
[/quote]
I guess I didn’t mean casual so much as just “WANT SEX, SEEKING SAME.” I think this is another one of those different-for-men things, because I have to be careful not to come off like I’m looking for someone to rescue me (the long term thing) and not to come off like I’m a song in the Jukebox of Pussy (tm TNation).
Maybe I should go with: “Nerdy librarian-type seeking to throw off glasses and tousle hair!”[/quote]
The thing you are looking for is " Casual dating".
An affair.
Now, if you are like “I am not that kind of girl” and on the other hand “ya, technically that about the level of intimacy I can handle right now and have my raging libidos needs met” you sort out the conflict.
[/quote]
I’m not. I’m looking for a long term relationship, something forever. Dating is what I have to do to get there. I AM that kind of girl, very, but in a relationship that allows the other kinds of intimacy as well.
I want to fall in love. Not right away, of course, but I want to identify someone who has integrity, health (physical, financial, emotional), and a good sense of humor and who likes me very well also, and then settle into getting to know him well while having dates and sex and hikes and such. My life is pretty nice. I want someone who enhances it further - a best friend I get to sleep with every night, who makes me whimper in pleasure, to whom I can do the same, and who makes me feel safe because he’s strong, and whom I can make feel safe because I’m steadfast.
That’s all. Just that. Easy-peasy, right? lol[/quote]
Thats where I would swoop in with “Yeah girl, dont we all want that? But even though we know it can never be, do we have to be all lonely while we search for the right one?”
I wish I had a Barry White voice, because in that case, that would be a 100% perfect sell. [/quote]
It CAN be, you grouchy cynic!
So a third date with a guy last night I like, but still no attempt to kiss. We’ve seen each other weekly, had fun each time, and then sort of hugged goodbye. He’s very sweet and formal, very door-opening, but also funny as hell and plays hockey, so not a wan, emaciated poet type. My worry is that I’m too wild for him. He likes really mellow music, and I have a good bit of rap on my device. He was surprised last night when I said “Oh yes, I swear!”
And no kiss. I worry that he’s idealizing me as being more ladylike than I am. Although I looked pretty bad ass last night because I have bad ass new boots. Maybe that’s why he didn’t kiss me! Except he mentioned a next time. Maybe he’s secretly a terrible swearer, too.
I still don’t have any clue what I’m doing.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
I’ve been at odds with some feelings lately. Last year in January I started having panic attacks. When the first one happened I really flipped out. It was at work when I was inside the rake of a barge doing some repairs. I got out of there as soon as I could and went to the office. The HR lady sent me to Med Plus and they gave me some ativan. That calmed me down some and I got in touch with a therapist through my insurance and went for a visit right away. The next week I went to one of my regular AA meetings. I started telling a good friend and mentor about what had happened and straight away he says that I relapsed and engaged in drug seeking behavior. An MD saying that going to an MD for the typical treatment of an acute event struck me as odd, so I pressed on a little. He didn’t have much to say other than that ativan was the wrong drug for a drug addict to have taken for that. I replied that if it was just about getting high, I could have scored some oxy or opana off of just about any of my co-workers. We agreed to disagree and moved on.
Then last month I was talking to the same guy. Mainly about the sleep deprivation and anxiety I was having. I was really happy to say that the 5-htp and theanine I started taking was working really well and I hadn’t felt this good in at least the past year. First thing out of his mouth was “Better living through chemistry, huh? If thats not a relapse I don’t know what is.”. So I asked “Is a turkey sandwich and a cup of green tea a fucking relapse now?”. That kind of pissed me off. He said that since I was manipulating my brain chemistry that it was, and I need to seriously reflect on what I’ve been doing. If it wasn’t a relapse, it was pretty damn close.
So the last Friday of the month rolls around and it’s time for the chips for everybody who got sober in that month in increments of years. I missed that one in October, so they gave me my 11 year chip in November. The thing that struck me though was that the room was really subdued, like little golf clap, when usually they are all fired up. The next guy gets his and the crowd goes wild. Thats when it occurs to me that my friend may have shared his opinion of whether or not I relapsed with other people. So now I feel kind of estranged and betrayed by a person that I’ve really looked up to over the years. This is on the heels of one of the more difficult and dynamic times in my life, when I could really use the encouragement of a peer group I have come to rely on.
This all came to a head in my mind tonight when my wife asked why I wasn’t going. Then I just cut loose with all of it. She was kind of blown away by it all and had no idea that I was in such turmoil. Honestly, neither did I.
Then I had a cup of Starbucks mint cocoa, and now I can’t sleep. Thats not a relapse, is it?
[/quote]
I say fuck the group and fuck that doctor. They sound like a bunch of bitchy cunts, and you don’t need em. If you’re having panic attacks, you’re allowed to get medication that makes you feel better. You know how many fucking drugs most “non addicts” are on? I’m sure you do man. Everyone these days is on their own little prescribed cocktail seems like. You’re not even as bad as them. Sounds like this doctor is making you feel insecure about whether or not you actually had a relapse. You didn’t. If they helped stop the panic attacks and made you feel better, sounds like a win to me! You don’t need some elitist prick talking down to you and adding stress to your life.
Find a situation where you can plant one on him. It will give him he hint… Maybe do it playfully? I’m thinking something like right after having a shot… Maybe take him out for drinks, get him a double of his favorite and plant one on him right while he’s trying to breathe post shot or something.
Maybe this is what you need, someone who will be less aggressive with you but still athletic and such. If he’s taking this long to kiss you maybe it’s a good thing.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
I’ve been at odds with some feelings lately. Last year in January I started having panic attacks. When the first one happened I really flipped out. It was at work when I was inside the rake of a barge doing some repairs. I got out of there as soon as I could and went to the office. The HR lady sent me to Med Plus and they gave me some ativan. That calmed me down some and I got in touch with a therapist through my insurance and went for a visit right away. The next week I went to one of my regular AA meetings. I started telling a good friend and mentor about what had happened and straight away he says that I relapsed and engaged in drug seeking behavior. An MD saying that going to an MD for the typical treatment of an acute event struck me as odd, so I pressed on a little. He didn’t have much to say other than that ativan was the wrong drug for a drug addict to have taken for that. I replied that if it was just about getting high, I could have scored some oxy or opana off of just about any of my co-workers. We agreed to disagree and moved on.
Then last month I was talking to the same guy. Mainly about the sleep deprivation and anxiety I was having. I was really happy to say that the 5-htp and theanine I started taking was working really well and I hadn’t felt this good in at least the past year. First thing out of his mouth was “Better living through chemistry, huh? If thats not a relapse I don’t know what is.”. So I asked “Is a turkey sandwich and a cup of green tea a fucking relapse now?”. That kind of pissed me off. He said that since I was manipulating my brain chemistry that it was, and I need to seriously reflect on what I’ve been doing. If it wasn’t a relapse, it was pretty damn close.
So the last Friday of the month rolls around and it’s time for the chips for everybody who got sober in that month in increments of years. I missed that one in October, so they gave me my 11 year chip in November. The thing that struck me though was that the room was really subdued, like little golf clap, when usually they are all fired up. The next guy gets his and the crowd goes wild. Thats when it occurs to me that my friend may have shared his opinion of whether or not I relapsed with other people. So now I feel kind of estranged and betrayed by a person that I’ve really looked up to over the years. This is on the heels of one of the more difficult and dynamic times in my life, when I could really use the encouragement of a peer group I have come to rely on.
This all came to a head in my mind tonight when my wife asked why I wasn’t going. Then I just cut loose with all of it. She was kind of blown away by it all and had no idea that I was in such turmoil. Honestly, neither did I.
Then I had a cup of Starbucks mint cocoa, and now I can’t sleep. Thats not a relapse, is it?
[/quote]
I would share your feelings with the group. I think the majority of substance abusers are self-medicating something, and one of the challenges of abstaining is figuring out what and dealing with it. One ativan during a panic attack does not, in my (professional) opinion, a relapse make, but obviously people differ. I would bear in mind that your friend is expressing concern, though not in a way that’s helpful to you. But I would assume his intentions are good.
I think you should tell the group about your disappointment and then, as Eminem said, shake it off and keep moving.
And I’m sorry about the panic attack. Those suck mightily.[/quote]
Not my problem but I empathize. What about the broken confidence in his doctor? His doctor shared shit with the group, which seems to be something else that needs to be addressed.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Find a situation where you can plant one on him. It will give him he hint… Maybe do it playfully? I’m thinking something like right after having a shot… Maybe take him out for drinks, get him a double of his favorite and plant one on him right while he’s trying to breathe post shot or something.
Maybe this is what you need, someone who will be less aggressive with you but still athletic and such. If he’s taking this long to kiss you maybe it’s a good thing. [/quote]
Haha, I thought for some reason that you were suggesting this to Skyz.
I was actually thinking the same thing as I ran this morning, that the no kissing is a blessing because I don’t have to worry about what next and I can slowly let him know what a horror I really am and see how all that goes. “So, what did you think of two girls and a cup?”
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Find a situation where you can plant one on him. It will give him he hint… Maybe do it playfully? I’m thinking something like right after having a shot… Maybe take him out for drinks, get him a double of his favorite and plant one on him right while he’s trying to breathe post shot or something.
Maybe this is what you need, someone who will be less aggressive with you but still athletic and such. If he’s taking this long to kiss you maybe it’s a good thing. [/quote]
Haha, I thought for some reason that you were suggesting this to Skyz.
I was actually thinking the same thing as I ran this morning, that the no kissing is a blessing because I don’t have to worry about what next and I can slowly let him know what a horror I really am and see how all that goes. “So, what did you think of two girls and a cup?” [/quote]
Lol, I’d roll off my chair if a date asked me that, better… Ask him that AFTER you kiss him! JK JK he might get the wrong mental picture. You want him to think about how awesome that kiss you just planted on him was and not get poo all over it (that thought).
I don’t know how seriously Skyz takes me or that we like one another much, but what he’s going through is some bullshit that he didn’t bring onto himself.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Push, I say on mine that I’m pretty affectionate and hope he will be, too. Originally I had physically affectionate, but then after peering at it for a bit through my pince-nez spectacles decided that it looked like I was advertising for casual sex. Also, there’s my work. To talk about my sexual desires explicitly seems unwise.
[/quote]
I think there is a way to do it without the casual sex advertisement worry. If you read what I wrote it surely doesn’t imply I’m all about lovin’ and leavin’ 'em. It just says if you’re truly interested in me be prepared to make sure the physical side of things is a primary component of the relationship. I’m not even remotely interested in being one of these guys who has to whine (legitimately) about a frigid wife no matter what her other qualities.
[/quote]
I guess I didn’t mean casual so much as just “WANT SEX, SEEKING SAME.” I think this is another one of those different-for-men things, because I have to be careful not to come off like I’m looking for someone to rescue me (the long term thing) and not to come off like I’m a song in the Jukebox of Pussy (tm TNation).
Maybe I should go with: “Nerdy librarian-type seeking to throw off glasses and tousle hair!”[/quote]
The thing you are looking for is " Casual dating".
An affair.
Now, if you are like “I am not that kind of girl” and on the other hand “ya, technically that about the level of intimacy I can handle right now and have my raging libidos needs met” you sort out the conflict.
[/quote]
I’m not. I’m looking for a long term relationship, something forever. Dating is what I have to do to get there. I AM that kind of girl, very, but in a relationship that allows the other kinds of intimacy as well.
I want to fall in love. Not right away, of course, but I want to identify someone who has integrity, health (physical, financial, emotional), and a good sense of humor and who likes me very well also, and then settle into getting to know him well while having dates and sex and hikes and such. My life is pretty nice. I want someone who enhances it further - a best friend I get to sleep with every night, who makes me whimper in pleasure, to whom I can do the same, and who makes me feel safe because he’s strong, and whom I can make feel safe because I’m steadfast.
That’s all. Just that. Easy-peasy, right? lol[/quote]
Thats where I would swoop in with “Yeah girl, dont we all want that? But even though we know it can never be, do we have to be all lonely while we search for the right one?”
I wish I had a Barry White voice, because in that case, that would be a 100% perfect sell. [/quote]
It CAN be, you grouchy cynic!
[/quote]
Mebbe, but my sales pitch to you would have been that even while I might not be the one for the long term, ships in the night, and so further and so on…