[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I think the last therapist for someone like orion would be female, as he doesn’t trust them to be able to think independently, so could not rely on the validity of feedback or even experience. Even as we talk he sees the therapist as someone who wants to understand the experience of orion wanting to bone her. One dimensional, as all females are.[/quote]
You would be wrong.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I think the last therapist for someone like orion would be female, as he doesn’t trust them to be able to think independently, so could not rely on the validity of feedback or even experience. Even as we talk he sees the therapist as someone who wants to understand the experience of orion wanting to bone her. One dimensional, as all females are.[/quote]
You would be wrong. [/quote]
Oh yeah?
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
That would seem to be a reason why he may need to delve into specifics of his sex life (eg: after I bang the hooker, I curl up in the fetal position and ask “mommy” to stroke my hair). I still think she can hear that clinically, but not have to “feel” it. In the first instance, one listens but in the second one listens and also emotionally incorporates it…
I’m not sure I’m making sense, but would love to hear Em’s or Cushions (:)) take on how a therapist listens to a patient relay difficult information (dad abused me, mom never loved me, etc) while also maintaining proper boundaries.[/quote]
Well, I am sure they will answer you, but I dont think you get what a therapeutic relationship is for.
In some ways the therapist becomes the abusive father, or the hooker or mommy.
This is why therapists hold back on personal information so that the patient can see in them whatever he wants to.
It is quite revealing what he wants to see.
Ideally a therapist does not comment at all, he processes and then ask leading questions so that you see what he sees.
If you take that further, a client might choose Emily, insofar as he can choose, because she is a woman.
On some level he knows that he cannot tackle whatever it is with a man.
[/quote]
I would think that what you’re describing is one specific type of therapy. It bears little to no resemblence to my experience. I did have one ill-fated run-in with psychodrama therapy (actually, sociodrama therapy complete with drums and burning sage, ugh.) and that seems to be closer to what you’re describing. In that instance, the therapist did indeed play the role of mother/brother/spouse as needed and the roles were played out as though on stage.
[/quote]
I am not talking about role plays.
I am talking about people reenacting a certain script over and over again.
If you are in a therapeutic relationship, you will try to play that script out as well.
A therapist should see the script and point it out to you.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I think the last therapist for someone like orion would be female, as he doesn’t trust them to be able to think independently, so could not rely on the validity of feedback or even experience. Even as we talk he sees the therapist as someone who wants to understand the experience of orion wanting to bone her. One dimensional, as all females are.[/quote]
You would be wrong. [/quote]
Oh yeah?[/quote]
Oh yeah.
I have no issues with men and we would have a pissing contest on our hands in the first 10 minutes.
That might sound contradictory but it really is not.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
That would seem to be a reason why he may need to delve into specifics of his sex life (eg: after I bang the hooker, I curl up in the fetal position and ask “mommy” to stroke my hair). I still think she can hear that clinically, but not have to “feel” it. In the first instance, one listens but in the second one listens and also emotionally incorporates it…
I’m not sure I’m making sense, but would love to hear Em’s or Cushions (:)) take on how a therapist listens to a patient relay difficult information (dad abused me, mom never loved me, etc) while also maintaining proper boundaries.[/quote]
Well, I am sure they will answer you, but I dont think you get what a therapeutic relationship is for.
In some ways the therapist becomes the abusive father, or the hooker or mommy.
This is why therapists hold back on personal information so that the patient can see in them whatever he wants to.
It is quite revealing what he wants to see.
Ideally a therapist does not comment at all, he processes and then ask leading questions so that you see what he sees.
If you take that further, a client might choose Emily, insofar as he can choose, because she is a woman.
On some level he knows that he cannot tackle whatever it is with a man.
[/quote]
I would think that what you’re describing is one specific type of therapy. It bears little to no resemblence to my experience. I did have one ill-fated run-in with psychodrama therapy (actually, sociodrama therapy complete with drums and burning sage, ugh.) and that seems to be closer to what you’re describing. In that instance, the therapist did indeed play the role of mother/brother/spouse as needed and the roles were played out as though on stage.
[/quote]
I am not talking about role plays.
I am talking about people reenacting a certain script over and over again.
If you are in a therapeutic relationship, you will try to play that script out as well.
A therapist should see the script and point it out to you. [/quote]
Yes and no, orion. There is transference and countertransference, and you’re right that in your relationship with a therapist things will come out over and over again, but that does not require that I be the blank slate upon which men draw their sexual fantasies. Children view me as vaguely maternal, but also not. I know a couple of teen boys have had crushes, but those, too, are only vague. Fruedian psychoanalysis is rarely done nowadays. Or maybe it still is where you are, I don’t know.
Have you been in therapy?
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I think the last therapist for someone like orion would be female, as he doesn’t trust them to be able to think independently, so could not rely on the validity of feedback or even experience. Even as we talk he sees the therapist as someone who wants to understand the experience of orion wanting to bone her. One dimensional, as all females are.[/quote]
You would be wrong. [/quote]
Oh yeah?[/quote]
Oh yeah.
I have no issues with men and we would have a pissing contest on our hands in the first 10 minutes.
That might sound contradictory but it really is not. [/quote]
Over what? The male therapists I know would not engage. If you wanted to argue psychotherapy he would probably debate it with you briefly without defensiveness, then at some point say, “so, why are we here? what are your goals in coming?”
Let me just state for the record that now I’m worried that my earrings are dreamcatcher-like. 
[quote]nephorm wrote:
[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
But the anger and sadness themselves are just natural biological reactions to life events, and I would probably let them run their course, like a virus. Primarily, thoughts would be directed towards minimizing their damage, rather than endless self reflection. For example, I would convince myself to keep going to work, because I need a job. Limit thoughts of revenge, because for most wrongs it’s just not worth it, as they always say.
[/quote]
I appreciate the idea that what most characterizes us as human beings is our ability to reason. However, we use reason in service of our emotions. In Freudian terms the id forms the desire but the ego deals with reality to satisfy it. Rationality, on its own, is directionless.
[/quote]
I agree wholeheartedly. Which is why I stated in a earlier thread that most people never move beyond rationalizing. I’m sure I fall into that category and that’s fine. If I want something, my version of processing is not to question should I want it, or why I want it. For me, that just falls into the self feeding loop, like a song you hate that gets stuck in your head. My process would be, what is the cost of that desire, and do I have to cross any moral/ethical lines to get it.
If I want an object, is it for sale and can I afford to buy it, and if so is it worth the asking price? If it is not for sale and the only way I could aquire it is by stealing it, I’m not a theif, and I believe stealing is wrong. I’ve already established that line. I’m not going to try to talk myself out of wanting it (the emotion involved), because that just feeds the loop.
If I desire a woman, is she taken? If she’s married she’s off limits in my mind, I don’t care if she has an open relationship or her husband is an asshole or whatever. I wouldn’t try to rationalize making a move on her. If she isn’t taken, but she isn’t interested in me, I might persue her for a little while, but eventually I will move on. I will still desire her, but there are plenty of women out there. But I will not try to reason my way out of wanting her, (she’s a bitch anyway!) I’ve tried that before and it doesn’t work. Best to just let that desire sit there on the shelf.
But I’ve also never let desire for the unattainable woman stop me from persuing other women, once I’ve determined that they are unattainable. I can see how that would be a problem.
[quote]
Bringing reason to bear on our psyche - putting words to what we feel - not only organizes our experiences, but allows us to steer intelligence toward meaningful pursuits and avoid damaging behaviors. Talking about emotions in terms of mad, happy, and sad is reductive in a way similar to saying that music is just a collection of notes chosen from the musical alphabet. Such an oversimplification might have pedagogic or therapeutic value for some people, but it is still an oversimplification.[/quote]
I agree with this also, which is why I’m one those that don’t like to talk about it. It does me little good. I suppose this means that I just process it my own way.
If there is a rough form of chauvinism, be it sexual, religious, or national superiority, isn’t this a good place to start introspection? I mean, some of these folks acknowledge they are sexist, or have some religious zeal, or have sort of myopic international view of their nation and it’s policies.
IMO people build lies and try to live behind them, make excuses for their broken belief systems when they fail instead of re-examining them. I know it’s harsh, maybe coming from me I’ll push people farther away from their eventual cure… In the end it has to do with facing your own fears and insecurities, or lack of them when they should be there.
Instead, own your fears and insecurities. You may never fully overcome them, but you can get over on them on a consistent basis if you know what they are. You have a perfect platform for it here… Anonymity and someone who is in earnest willing to try and help.
I’m saying, try to take ownership of your fears and insecurities, lick them, and make them yours. Not at anyone in particular, just sayin…
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
This seems rather naive to me. My grandparents’ deaths caused barely a ripple for me as well, because they were old and their deaths were not horrific. So I thought to myself that I missed (my grandmother, actually, my gf was just sort of there, not a huge loss to me personally) and wove the manner of her death into an entertaining story of feistiness. I doubt I engaged in any self-reflection whatsoever, and certainly no mournful heart-to-hearts. For what purpose?
I started working with a youngish woman this week who is the victim of childhood sex abuse. She hasn’t been intimate with her husband, whom she loves, for several months. Her feelings are quicksand, and she’s drowning in them. As you say, thoughts are directed toward minimizing the damage the feelings do. In this case shame, which is crippling. That’s processing, as I understand it. To process something is to reform or make sense of something; to categorize it.
Feelings can and should be examined for validity if they are causing any difficulty. If not, as in the case of my grandparents and yours, groovy.
I dunno, maybe your emotions ARE cheap and hollow. Some people’s are.
[/quote]
It’s true that I have lived through no major life traumas, as your client has, so maybe that makes me naive. My emotions have never caused me any major difficulties, as in causing me to lose a job. I have gotten mad and quit jobs before, but I had just cause to be mad. I don’t see the emotion as the problem but the job and supervisors in question.
In that case, as in most, emotions just don’t come out of nowhere, and are usually justified so I go with my gut. If I’m mad it’s because I have a reason to be mad. I don’t process it beyond trying to put my finger on what’s wrong with the situation. I don’t get mad and hurt people or destroy things, so I don’t need anger management. Ain’t I boring?
I do deal with stressful sitautions frequently at work. Sometimes they are traumatic life changing events for those directly involved. As a first responder I just show up and do the best I can. Co-workers tell me I’m very good with my patients and I’m praised for my “bedside manner.” On the other hand, the really fucked up stuff doesn’t bother me like it does my co-workers.
They cry, they have nightmares, they need “debriefings”, some of them panic. I haven’t had any of that yet. I’m not arrogant enough to think that makes me strong or them weak, just different, and I let them handle things their way. If they need to talk about it I listen. I’m a good listener. I might freak out one day, or have nightmares, or need debriefing, in which case I will seek whatever help I need.
ACtually, I did cry once. I didn’t need to talk about it at the time and really don’t now.
Perhaps not having been majorly traumatized my internal emotional processes work fine. Or maybe being introverted I don’t need to do a lot of talking in general, and I don’t need to talk about my emotions in particular. I’m sorry for your client. What she’s been through is beyond her and her capcity to cope with alone, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with her for needing help. I wish her the best.
But thanks for dismissing me as shallow because I don’t process my feelings the way you think everyone should. Most of that was probably because of the taking a shit metaphor, which was crass.
This is what I think of when we are sharing our feelings.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
This is what I think of when we are sharing our feelings.[/quote]
Me too.
When I was a kid, “thank you for sharing” was a sarcastic put-down, used to let someone know that they shared TMI, and it was boring TMI at that.
I was probably 38 before I ever heard someone use it sincerely, and I still can’t say it myself without hearing the slightest bit of sarcasm in my voice.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
This is what I think of when we are sharing our feelings.[/quote]
Me too.
When I was a kid, “thank you for sharing” was a sarcastic put-down, used to let someone know that they shared TMI, and it was boring TMI at that.
I was probably 38 before I ever heard someone use it sincerely, and I still can’t say it myself without hearing the slightest bit of sarcasm in my voice.
[/quote]
Exactly. Because does anyone really care that much about anyone else’s feelings? I will listen to a lot of other people and occasionally when someone talks about something severe (death in the family mostly), I will actually find some compassion but for the most part to many feelings being thrown around just gets weird and should probably be handled internally.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
This is what I think of when we are sharing our feelings.[/quote]
Me too.
When I was a kid, “thank you for sharing” was a sarcastic put-down, used to let someone know that they shared TMI, and it was boring TMI at that.
I was probably 38 before I ever heard someone use it sincerely, and I still can’t say it myself without hearing the slightest bit of sarcasm in my voice.
[/quote]
That is because you are an asshole
hahhahahaahhhahahahahahahahhahah
wow.
all these meaningless words without any pics of boobs?
wow, this website has really gone downhill
[quote]Severiano wrote:
If there is a rough form of chauvinism, be it sexual, religious, or national superiority, isn’t this a good place to start introspection? I mean, some of these folks acknowledge they are sexist, or have some religious zeal, or have sort of myopic international view of their nation and it’s policies.
IMO people build lies and try to live behind them, make excuses for their broken belief systems when they fail instead of re-examining them. I know it’s harsh, maybe coming from me I’ll push people farther away from their eventual cure… In the end it has to do with facing your own fears and insecurities, or lack of them when they should be there.
Instead, own your fears and insecurities. You may never fully overcome them, but you can get over on them on a consistent basis if you know what they are. You have a perfect platform for it here… Anonymity and someone who is in earnest willing to try and help.
I’m saying, try to take ownership of your fears and insecurities, lick them, and make them yours. Not at anyone in particular, just sayin… [/quote]
Not everyone who sees thing different from how you see them has issues.
My sexism for example is infinitely better thought through and internally consistent than what I believe your Pollyanna standard egalitarian narrative to be.
[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
This seems rather naive to me. My grandparents’ deaths caused barely a ripple for me as well, because they were old and their deaths were not horrific. So I thought to myself that I missed (my grandmother, actually, my gf was just sort of there, not a huge loss to me personally) and wove the manner of her death into an entertaining story of feistiness. I doubt I engaged in any self-reflection whatsoever, and certainly no mournful heart-to-hearts. For what purpose?
I started working with a youngish woman this week who is the victim of childhood sex abuse. She hasn’t been intimate with her husband, whom she loves, for several months. Her feelings are quicksand, and she’s drowning in them. As you say, thoughts are directed toward minimizing the damage the feelings do. In this case shame, which is crippling. That’s processing, as I understand it. To process something is to reform or make sense of something; to categorize it.
Feelings can and should be examined for validity if they are causing any difficulty. If not, as in the case of my grandparents and yours, groovy.
I dunno, maybe your emotions ARE cheap and hollow. Some people’s are.
[/quote]
It’s true that I have lived through no major life traumas, as your client has, so maybe that makes me naive. My emotions have never caused me any major difficulties, as in causing me to lose a job. I have gotten mad and quit jobs before, but I had just cause to be mad. I don’t see the emotion as the problem but the job and supervisors in question.
In that case, as in most, emotions just don’t come out of nowhere, and are usually justified so I go with my gut. If I’m mad it’s because I have a reason to be mad. I don’t process it beyond trying to put my finger on what’s wrong with the situation. I don’t get mad and hurt people or destroy things, so I don’t need anger management. Ain’t I boring?
I do deal with stressful sitautions frequently at work. Sometimes they are traumatic life changing events for those directly involved. As a first responder I just show up and do the best I can. Co-workers tell me I’m very good with my patients and I’m praised for my “bedside manner.” On the other hand, the really fucked up stuff doesn’t bother me like it does my co-workers.
They cry, they have nightmares, they need “debriefings”, some of them panic. I haven’t had any of that yet. I’m not arrogant enough to think that makes me strong or them weak, just different, and I let them handle things their way. If they need to talk about it I listen. I’m a good listener. I might freak out one day, or have nightmares, or need debriefing, in which case I will seek whatever help I need.
ACtually, I did cry once. I didn’t need to talk about it at the time and really don’t now.
Perhaps not having been majorly traumatized my internal emotional processes work fine. Or maybe being introverted I don’t need to do a lot of talking in general, and I don’t need to talk about my emotions in particular. I’m sorry for your client. What she’s been through is beyond her and her capcity to cope with alone, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with her for needing help. I wish her the best.
But thanks for dismissing me as shallow because I don’t process my feelings the way you think everyone should. Most of that was probably because of the taking a shit metaphor, which was crass.[/quote]
I didn’t dismiss you as shallow, what I said was:
[quote]that thinking seems very shallow to me and you’ve never struck me as a shallow man. [/quote].
I don’t think everyone should process their feelings. Why? I only process my own if I feel they’re hindering my functioning in some way. My deal with men only came to the forefront because I’m dating with a distinct lack of cool. Prior to that I had no issue with men. I was married and didn’t flirt. It’s not like I ever cringed or cowered, I got along socially just fine with men and had no issue with it. Now I’ve noticed it’s a thing, so I’m figuring it out (actually I think I have it fully processed now).
Most of life requires little or no processing of feelings. Things like chronic illness, a child born with disabilities, unnatural death (let’s say your grandparent was driving a car and when it wrecked a piece of grandpa landed in your lap), abuse or abandonment by a parent, substance abuse in one’s self or close others - these may, depending on the person, have impacts beyond “sad” or “angry.”
I would say that the majority of people don’t need therapy, but I would say that almost all people need to learn to identify and verbalize their feelings if they plan to live well with others. Generally parents teach that, though not always. But some things can’t be verbalized to intimates because it’s too much, or they need to test it on a stranger first (coming out comes to mind).
Anyway. Talk to people or don’t! I have no strong feelings about that, but please don’t make it a matter of courage or fortitude to withstand something like the natural death of grandparents when most people manage this with little or no emotional strain:
“Nah, I can’t, my grandmother died and her funeral’s tomorrow. I’m gonna be with my family all day.”
“Oh, sorry to hear that, man.”
“Yeah. She was pretty old.”
I also experience traumatic stuff at work without seeming to need to process it with others. Honestly, when I leave work I’m usually focused on dinner regardless of the day’s horrors. No nightmares, and if I’ve cried specifically over work stuff I don’t remember it, though maybe I have, I don’t know. Many of my colleagues seem to have shit to process in meetings every single week. It irritates me, frankly. Maybe they’re in the wrong field?
That said, I’m way oversensitive to conflict at home and am a nightmare of talking in that context. But I’m talkative and extraverted, so that’s unsurprising. People I’m close to find it worrisome when I’m quiet for too long. (Like a toddler, lol.)
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
This is what I think of when we are sharing our feelings.[/quote]
Me too.
When I was a kid, “thank you for sharing” was a sarcastic put-down, used to let someone know that they shared TMI, and it was boring TMI at that.
I was probably 38 before I ever heard someone use it sincerely, and I still can’t say it myself without hearing the slightest bit of sarcasm in my voice.
[/quote]
I agree. I also hear it as sarcastic when someone says “and how does that make you feel?”
I need to report that I fucking LOVE my new job. The grownups - they’re like the kids I love, but 20, 40, 70 years down the road!
It’s very cool. No issues with any ages or gender, and I’ve now run pretty much the gamut.
Boning has not come up.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I need to report that I fucking LOVE my new job. The grownups - they’re like the kids I love, but 20, 40, 70 years down the road!
It’s very cool. No issues with any ages or gender, and I’ve now run pretty much the gamut.
Boning has not come up.[/quote]
Actually, that’s not true! Boning has been brought up, by both men and women. But talking about it wasn’t an issue.
So, um, the hunter guy texted tonight asking how I’m doing. I should just ignore it, right? There’s no need to reiterate “no thank you”?