Left, Right, No In Between

The immigration you mentioned was important and helpful, because it helped to build the nation in its formative period. Most of it was from European countries, so there were plenty of cultural differences, but racially it was predominantly white European. So people would quickly assimilate to a common purpose.
From an American Indian’s perspective this immigration was pretty bad. In the main they resented It, as you would if you were getting kicked off your land, killed, or told what to do by invaders. Funny how immigration is always touted as good.

Once upon a time I might have agreed with that statement, it all sounds good on paper, equality and fairness, human rights for all, kumbaya . Racism is a Marxist term used to gaslight, people(usually white people) into doing something against their own interest. It has been overused so much just like Nazi, or bigot, to have become powerless to anyone with 2 braincells.

After seeing what happens in countries like Zimbabwe, South Africa, in practice it just doesn’t occur that way.
Zim became very hostile quickly, to white people and most of them fled. Those that stayed risked losing their productive farmland, or being murdered if they refused to leave. The end result the country turned from being the richest, most productive country in Africa, to one of the worst economic basket cases the modern world has seen.

South Africa was perceived as an evil apartheid culture, think Lethal Weapon 2. International pressure in the form of economic sanctions was successful, in forcing the white government to share power with the native population. It all started off well, truth in reconciliation tribunals, where the natives grievances could be recognised as fact, yet no retaliation was threatened as people were now all supposed to get along. It was promising in the first few years, now you have white farmers getting murdered for their land, and talk of politicians legitimising this by legislating compulsory government acquisition of land. After 30 odd years of power sharing, and now predominantly black rule the country is in worse state than ever, both economically , and socially. This is worse for the majority of black people too, due to tribal factions that only pay lip service to fairness and equality. So please forgive me If I think objectively that countries don’t do as well, when the majority of people become the minority.

While you brought up a remarkably good point, do you think this argument is even comparable in a country like the US? Regarding population, governmental checks and balances, multiple “provinces” with their own smaller governing power, and a less prevalent violent outcome to most political decisions?

edit I get your logic, its pretty sound, but I feel as thought the US is simply economically too different. (Also, I’m aware we have our own landslide of issues to contend with, just in regards to this specific comparison)

So they quickly assimilated because they were also white? That’s what your trying to tell me? That if people with different cultures and backgrounds get together as long as they are the same race everything’s ok? Couldn’t disagree more, but it also ignores all the non white immigration we’ve had that helped develop and shape the nation. Which continues to develop and shape the nation. And somehow we’ve been fine. Fine for a long time. Not a perfect country by any means but a place the vast majority of people have an opportunity to be happy and successful. Even if they don’t share a skin color or religion. That’s not Kumbaya that’s pretty damn well factual unless one really stretches imo.

Immigration has its issues I haven’t said otherwise. Again I think it would be difficult to argue that immigration hasn’t been a net positive for getting the country where it is today. I think overwhelmingly so and I think most educated people would agree with me.

Lol ok. Not sure I can even begin to agree with you in any type of sense. Racism may be overused but again I’d say a lot of people would think it certainly fits when you say European immigration was good (because whites people), and we’re going towards Rome as the white majority diminishes (so far an outlandish and demonstrably untrue statement).

Ancient Rome, Zimbabwe, I’m perfectly fine with you thinking these have some type of connection to the future of the US. I think it’s pretty irrational.

You may not be a white nationalist but you’re reading from the white nationalist playbook. It seems as if your grasp on immigration in America in its current state (and historically) is lacking a bit. And you’re forced to attempt to make really weird chicken little connections to convince people of their impending doom.

Immigration to the US is down last I checked, we have way more unfilled jobs than people looking for work, and about 99% of the people with my skin color won’t work the shittiest jobs out there (which also have vacancies), and white people aren’t making as many babies as you’ve said (irrelevant to the discussion unless one is terrified at some point a white majority ends) It’s just hard for me to think that with those facts and our long successful history of benefiting from immigration that the sky is falling.

But maybe you’re right and I’m just dismissing the idea that if I only looked closer at Ancient Rome and Zimbabwe I’d realize the error of my ways.

I think consequences would manifest differently, in the US mainly because in the examples of S Africa, and Zimbabwe were run by white people, but white people weren’t the numerical majority, maybe only 10-20% of the total population of these countries.

In America despite many societal changes like, banning slavery, then desegregation, positive discrimination, acceptance of interracial marriage. There are now black police chiefs, lawyers, politicians, bankers, and other respected and influential members of society. A vocal portion of the African American community behave like none of these things have ever occurred, and the white man is still the cause of all their ills. Yes there is still unfairness, like driving whilst black, and a lot of black guys getting shot by police. Sometimes its justified and other times its not. With BLM it seems there is no distinction if a shooting is justified or not. From the stats that I have seen, the overwhelmingly biggest threat to black, white and Asian American people, from violent crime is other black Americans.
Earlier there was the Rodney King incident, which led to the LA riots. A lot of black people used this as an excuse to indiscriminately rob and destroy property, not only of white people but Asian merchants as well. There have been other similar riots since.
There has recently been talk about paying reparations to the descendants of slaves, even though it would probably bankrupt the country. Many others want to destroy any historical reference to individuals with some link to the slave industry like statues of Confederate soldiers, rather than leaving them as reminders of the past. There has been at least one case that I have heard of where a black man raped a white woman. Despite never being a slave let alone living in segregation his justification was it was revenge for slavery. So there seems to be a strong anti white undercurrent already.

Immigration , Naturalisation Act of 1790 originally listed citizenship only to white people of good character. I think it wasn’t until 1965 when laws were changed in America to let people from non European countries immigrate, or at least immigrate in large numbers.

1870 citizenship was extended to include people of African descent.
1882 Chinese exclusion act. Chinese labourers were limited to immigrate for 10 years and couldn’t become citizens.

There are plenty more important acts regarding immigration, that kept the country majority white until recently. Today many would consider them racist.
There has been a great contribution from immigration historically from non whites. Chinese labourers, miners and merchants, obviously African Americans. Koreans and Vietnamese refugees fleeing from genuine war/regime change from what I have seen fit smoothly and painlessly into modern American society. So I can acknowledge their important contributions.

Historically when various European immigrants from non British backgrounds came to America, citizenship was really only open to white Christians, until the mid to late 20thC. Whilst much of their culture like language and language were different they were still all Christian, and white and had more things in common, than differences, so yes I think assimilation into becoming an American would be simpler than for someone who looked like a different race and had radically different belief systems.

The term racism comes from the 19thC, it didn’t really exist as a word before because people used to think it was obvious that the races were different and that some were superior to others based on the achievements of their culture, in comparison to others. A sizeable number of people alive back then had never even seen a white man, and were still living in the stone age( Australian aborigines, New Guinea natives, probably some Africans, and South American Natives), and had never independently developed written words, the wheel, science, metal working, or permanent architecture, until the white man came.
So discrimination based on race has always existed, but a word for it wasn’t associated negatively in your own monoculture, until the mid to late 20th C.
It wasn’t until the 1930’s when Trotsky popularized and weaponized the term racism, in the name of communism, in the attempt to dismiss and dissolve racial and cultural and religious differences, with the aim to unite all the peoples of different backgrounds into the Soviet Union. The culture was monocultural, and unified despite being made up of people from different racial and ethnic backgrounds.
When the Soviet Union dissolved, things started to go back to how they were pre revolution. Its just the nature of how things work when people aren’t coerced.

If you want to play devil’s advocate then you should look at both sides in the same objective way rather than making excuses for one group while unequivocally condemning the other.

What does this have to do with what we’re discussing? Are you saying we should pass legislation that ensures the country stays majority white? At this point you could end all immigration today and that would still happen at some point due to the white birth rate. 0 evidence exists that the moment white people aren’t the majority it’s all doom and gloom. 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, some of our strongest years in comparisons to others countries all had a declining white majority.

No doubt. So what’s your argument for you continuing to do it? That it’s no big deal because it’s been done for forever?

Instead of making weird link to Zimbabwe, Ancient Rome, or Marxist gaslighting how about actually focusing on a successful US country built with immigration and where the US currently stands at this moment. You’re going to have to do a lot better than this country is supposed to have a white majority to the end of time to convince most rational people on here.

You definitely missed the point of his post towards you.

Oh fuck, not you again. I had enough of this thread.

Don’t hide your feelings. You love posting after I do!

Re American immigration acts, they show how the country was at these various times, and why is was this way. They show that things weren’t always the way the are today. Many people are ignorant about that.
I’m not saying nor do I expect legislation to pass to ensure the country stays white. What I am saying is don’t expect things to run as smoothly as before, when the culture that founded the country is reduced to a minority. They lose power in a democracy.
Who were the people that developed the foundations that made America one of the greatest if not the greatest country in the history of mankind? Asians didn’t do it in their own countries, nor did Africans, native Americans, or anyone else that you can think of.
Even amongst all the white countries America has the best democratically enshrined, constitutional rights like freedom of speech and the right to bear arms(the right to self defence, and to hold the government to account if necessary).
For all the talk about democracy, freedom, and rights touted by other white and European countries, when push comes to shove these countries don’t have these rights enshrined by legislation. These rights are only implied, and the government of the day can and do choose to apply them selectively.

For some reason you seem to think examples that happen either historically, or in virtually every other countries today could in no way affect negatively America because of some magical reason.
America is a great country, but its not the entire world. Its still a part of the world and the same reality stills applies to it whether you like it or not. To dismiss the same factors that are happening in other countries to white people, sounds like you are in denial? I could come up with an infinite number of examples and you would still dismiss all these concerns.

If you see what is happening regarding immigration in Britain, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Netherlands, Italy and Greece, Australia and Canada and think it won’t ever happen to America, you must be deluded. How weird!

My argument is not about it being right or wrong(racism), but that it is an intrinsic part of human nature, and that you ignore the reality of it at your own peril. Communism sounds pretty good on paper, in practice it doesn’t work fairly and equally because of human nature, and that people will do what they think is right for them, rather than how the ideological script decrees how people should act.

The culture that founded this nation has been a minority, for decades. In fact, whites were a minority in South Carolina over 200 years ago.

I’m not ignorant about it. I’m also not ignorant enough to think that immigration didn’t build this country into what it is. Almost everyone on this forum who lives in America is a product of immigration.

The culture that founded the country doesn’t exist today and hasn’t for quite a while. The country is better for it and not worse. How one could even begin to argue the country isn’t better for all the people who came from other countries post American revolution would be beyond me. Are you under the impression that things ran more smoothly when the country had a bigger white majority? If you are then you’re seriously lacking in American history. Or we have a very different definition of smooth.

Yeah this doesn’t have anything to do with American immigration. A government solely of white men can do whatever the electorate let’s them get away with same as one with a few non whites mixed in. It’s not like we were killing it in the rights for all when before our government had any diversity.

I’ve never said they couldn’t. Your basis is on Ancient Rome and Zimbabwe. Mine is on the history of American and where the country is today. You can lay your money on it dying and I’ll lay mine on it living. Right now I think I’ve got a stronger argument. Mines based on American history and where the country is today. It’s not based on fears of Zimbabwe or the millionth person in history to say the US is falling like Rome. It may very well collapse and the whole thing goes to hell. So far everyone who has said that from the beginning has been wrong.

No it’s not the entire world not have I argued it is. I’m certainly not thinking it’s Ancient Rome or Zimbabwe though. The worst places in the world tend to be those that are the most cut off and isolated from their fellow humans.

I thought racism was a made up gaslighting thing so I’m not surprised you think your argument isn’t based on it. I’m not going to attempt to convince you it’s based on racism. But the idea that the country is better off the higher percentage of white people we have is essentially what you’re going to see white nationalists say. You can find your theories all over the internet but typically they are touted by what I would describe as racists. Your mileage may vary.

Even ignoring that you continue to fail to address key points like the benefits of immigration, the state of the us economy right now which has tons of unfilled jobs, etc. You seemed surprised to find out many of the jobs being done currently aren’t going to be filled by average white people. It would take an economic collapse to change this. It didn’t even happen in our most recent economic collapse. Average people didn’t rush towards western Kansas to work in feedlots. “Jose” to use your term isn’t keeping white Americans from finding work. They have no problem finding better work than that right now and we aren’t able to fill all the way better than those jobs.

Are you under the impression white Americans are chomping at the bit to get to work but they can’t find anything because of dirt poor Mexicans? I live in an area with about 12,000 (probably 4500 are college students at a local college) and I’m showing 1300 jobs within a 25 mile radius on indeed.com and close to 17,000 when expanded to 50 miles. And that’s leaving out all the ones that aren’t on the website. Kansas isn’t exactly a massively populated state.

Maybe it’s a problem outside of Kansas. LA is only showing 84,000 jobs on indeed. Maybe it should be way higher.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2019/3/18/18270916/labor-shortage-workers-us

Fuck not an article that says we need low skilled immigrants!

Are you trying to flirt with me now?

We have the same issue here with a supposed shortage of restaurant employees (not sure about retail but wouldn’t be surprised) but the fact is that it’s not due to a lack of people looking for work but rather a that few people want to do that sort of job for the low wages they offer.

I have been working as a cook for over 15 years, I used to work in restaurants but for some reason wages for cooks did not go up in proportion to everything else. I was making over $15 an hour more than 10 years ago and if you look at job ads right now you are lucky if you can find something that pays $20 for an experienced cook. I work for a nursing home these days. They are looking for people who are willing to work for minimum wage or maybe a few cents more, and restaurants routinely refuse to pay overtime, holidays, vacation pay, etc., it’s a crooked business.

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I think you and I are talking across issues. You are focused solely on America, whereas I am looking at America, and also what is happening to other countries demographically at the moment, and in the past. Especially white European countries, but also other non white countries and how they compare.

I see that what is happening globally, could and probably will have a negative impact on America, apparently you don’t seem to think that its possible.

Like I said earlier discrimination based on race has always existed, it just wasn’t perceived as a negative by your own culture. It wasn’t until the late 20thC when the term being" racist" became a negative thing in your own society. Sometimes its justified, but other times its used as a tool to silence those with an opposing argument. Its one of those things that some people even if they see it in front of them they won’t acknowledge its existence. Conversely there are those that want to see it everywhere even though isn’t. Other societies, mainly non white ones are held to a lesser standard, and can be what we would today call racist,(also sexist, homophobic etc) and have no negative consequences, either in their own country or from the rest of the world. Remember somethings only racist if white people do it.

I’ve addressed potential and actual benefits of immigration many times and recognised the contributions of both whites and non whites. I’ve also looked at potential and actual negatives of immigration, both legal and illegal.
I’m not surprised to find out many jobs aren’t being filled by average white people. I’ve addressed that before, re: a living wage, especially illegal immigrants prepared to work for less, the push for more immigrants by large companies/multinationals to keep labour costs as low as possible. That issue is not specific to America, it happens all over the first world.
Maybe your government could look into ensuring fairness in pay so local workers can get a fair days pay for a fair days work. Once again I addressed this in an earlier post.

Economically the US seems to be doing well since the last couple of years. But in the last decade it has been in a recession due to the GFC. I don’t know for sure but during that time about legal migration, but you definitely still had tons of illegal immigrants flooding into your country despite the lack of need for unskilled work.

I think you and I have probably talked this one out, and we don’t agree. That’s okay, I can live with that. Still happy to continue if you have more questions, I will try and answer if you want?

No. I know how having empathy for gay people or trans confuses you. It was a joke.

I work in the Landscaping industry, and its hurting for employees. Most of the bigger contractors are offering 401K and health insurance now, and some others are actually paying to put kids through a 1 week boot camp to start then out at $20/hr. They still cant find employees. Hell, even we are having trouble and we work in the wholesale side with arguably some of the highest starting pay and benefits you can get in my town without a degree.

Theres also a building that’s been through 4 restaurants in 4 years because they cant find employment. They made fucking bank, but nobody wanted to work.

It sounds against the grain, but at this point, the only people willing to fucking work in my town are immigrants, and unfortunately they obviously dont do well in a customer service role, at least for a while

Yes I’ve ONLY talked about America throughout our conversation on it. I’m guessing you need to talk about other places because you’ve come to the conclusion that America doesn’t work as an example for your fear.

Anything’s possible. You seem pretty entrenched to the idea that it will happen and I’m pretty well the opposite. Your point of view has needed to rely on Ancient Rome and Zimbabwe. Mine has past and current American success on its side. But I’m not denying the US has zero chance of turning into Zimbabwe if you insist on saying I don’t think anything negative is possible.

No it isn’t. You’re projecting here.

Income inequality I can get on board with a significant American issue. But that’s not really what you’ve been talking about on the whole. It’s been more boogeyman’s coming of the white majority goes down.

What makes you think we didn’t need unskilled work during this time? Even in the shitty economy people WEREN’T looking for jobs in the places I’ve talked about. And now they are even less likely to do it.

Here it’s probably a combination. Either way the focus tends to be on the dirt poor brown people being hired that everyone is angry at and not the super rich who exploit them. But we have a lot of “high” paying jobs for people without college degrees that are unfilled as chaos was talking about.

Maybe the white majority would decline a little slower if the super rich people who are mostly white wouldn’t exploit poor people. I know that doesn’t fit the narrative of the white nationalists though.