Lateral Delts on Push or Pull Day?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
41

[quote]dankid wrote:
Anonymas wrote:
mr popular wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
All this movement training bashing rhetoric makes me sick. If there is progressive overload it will work as good as anything

Adding 10lbs to your bench press isn’t the same as adding 10lbs to your bench press by consciously using your pec muscles to do the pressing.

“Train movements not muscles” is dumb, even for athletes.

Exactly

I mean would you rather add 100lbs to your bench press and add 1 inch to your chest, or add 50lbs to your bench and add 2 inches to your chest.

Is this a serious question. 100lbs to the bench press and 1 inch to your chest. Any REAL athlete would actually take 100lbs on their bench press and 0" on their chest over 50lbs and 2". This is part of the reason why a lot of people dont consider bb’ers athletes.
[/quote]

Why are you posting in a BODYBUILDING FORUM? People are laughing at you. Just leave. I’m sure you can give solid advice elswhere, to people who actually care what you have to say.

Who the hell trolls a website for over 3 years?

42

[quote]donovanbrambila wrote:

Am I the only one who still reads the daily article?
You have examples from every field, powerlifting, sports training, bodybuilding (what forum is this again?), etc., all doing the same thing. Training muscles, NOT movements. [/quote]

I dont know what you read, but I see at least half of those guys mentioning movements, not muscles. Sure Dave Tate says, tricep work, and does JM presses for his triceps, but he is doing it to improve a movement. And powerlifters like him train mainly movements. And then train the muscles as accessory.

Honestly agree with what someone else said that there really isn’t a difference, and that its just semantics. But you have a couple of guys that came in here and started this crap, stating that training movements was crap. And then they went even as far as to say that athletes should train muscles, not movements. But this is just plain wrong.

A good athlete will not say, oh man if my chest were just 2" bigger I would be so much better at my sport. They train their pressing strength with bench press, or they train their squat. If getting a bigger chest will help them bench more, then they’ll get that, but its not the goal.

43

[quote]dankid wrote:
donovanbrambila wrote:

Am I the only one who still reads the daily article?
You have examples from every field, powerlifting, sports training, bodybuilding (what forum is this again?), etc., all doing the same thing. Training muscles, NOT movements.

I dont know what you read, but I see at least half of those guys mentioning movements, not muscles. Sure Dave Tate says, tricep work, and does JM presses for his triceps, but he is doing it to improve a movement. And powerlifters like him train mainly movements. And then train the muscles as accessory.

Honestly agree with what someone else said that there really isn’t a difference, and that its just semantics. But you have a couple of guys that came in here and started this crap, stating that training movements was crap. And then they went even as far as to say that athletes should train muscles, not movements. But this is just plain wrong.

A good athlete will not say, oh man if my chest were just 2" bigger I would be so much better at my sport. They train their pressing strength with bench press, or they train their squat. If getting a bigger chest will help them bench more, then they’ll get that, but its not the goal.[/quote]

Of course it’s the goal you clown. If you have a muscle fiber X size, it can only get Y strong. That is an absolute fact. If you make that same muscle fiber bigger it can then get stronger. But go ahead, keep attempting to claim that strength and size are independant of each other. Stop mentioning fucking people who play sports. This is a discussion about building a complete physique.

44

[quote]dankid wrote:
donovanbrambila wrote:

Am I the only one who still reads the daily article?
You have examples from every field, powerlifting, sports training, bodybuilding (what forum is this again?), etc., all doing the same thing. Training muscles, NOT movements.

I dont know what you read, but I see at least half of those guys mentioning movements, not muscles. Sure Dave Tate says, tricep work, and does JM presses for his triceps, but he is doing it to improve a movement. And powerlifters like him train mainly movements. And then train the muscles as accessory.

Honestly agree with what someone else said that there really isn’t a difference, and that its just semantics. But you have a couple of guys that came in here and started this crap, stating that training movements was crap. And then they went even as far as to say that athletes should train muscles, not movements. But this is just plain wrong.

A good athlete will not say, oh man if my chest were just 2" bigger I would be so much better at my sport. They train their pressing strength with bench press, or they train their squat. If getting a bigger chest will help them bench more, then they’ll get that, but its not the goal.[/quote]

Can’t you just go and do your trolling in the conditioning forum rather than BB/PL?

Come on. Do us a favor for once.

45

[quote]Anonymas wrote:
mr popular wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
All this movement training bashing rhetoric makes me sick. If there is progressive overload it will work as good as anything

Adding 10lbs to your bench press isn’t the same as adding 10lbs to your bench press by consciously using your pec muscles to do the pressing.

“Train movements not muscles” is dumb, even for athletes.

Exactly

I mean would you rather add 100lbs to your bench press and add 1 inch to your chest, or add 50lbs to your bench and add 2 inches to your chest.[/quote]

DO YOU THINK BB WANT TO ADD POUNDS TO THE BAR THROUGH SLICK TECHNIQUE OR THROUGH STRENGTH/SIZE GAINS? YOUR THOUGHT THAT ALL ROADS LEAD TO ONE IS WRONG OVERALL, AND SOMEDAY WILL LIKELY CRUSH YOU UNDER THE BAR.

i’m done i won’t feed him either.

46

[quote]cyruseven75 wrote:
Anonymas wrote:
mr popular wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
All this movement training bashing rhetoric makes me sick. If there is progressive overload it will work as good as anything

Adding 10lbs to your bench press isn’t the same as adding 10lbs to your bench press by consciously using your pec muscles to do the pressing.

“Train movements not muscles” is dumb, even for athletes.

Exactly

I mean would you rather add 100lbs to your bench press and add 1 inch to your chest, or add 50lbs to your bench and add 2 inches to your chest.

DO YOU THINK BB WANT TO ADD POUNDS TO THE BAR THROUGH SLICK TECHNIQUE OR THROUGH STRENGTH/SIZE GAINS? YOUR THOUGHT THAT ALL ROADS LEAD TO ONE IS WRONG OVERALL, AND SOMEDAY WILL LIKELY CRUSH YOU UNDER THE BAR.

i’m done i won’t feed him either.

[/quote]

FFS why don’t trolls get banned here… He’s all over the bb and pl forums now.

47

[quote]cyruseven75 wrote:
Anonymas wrote:
mr popular wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
All this movement training bashing rhetoric makes me sick. If there is progressive overload it will work as good as anything

Adding 10lbs to your bench press isn’t the same as adding 10lbs to your bench press by consciously using your pec muscles to do the pressing.

“Train movements not muscles” is dumb, even for athletes.

Exactly

I mean would you rather add 100lbs to your bench press and add 1 inch to your chest, or add 50lbs to your bench and add 2 inches to your chest.

DO YOU THINK BB WANT TO ADD POUNDS TO THE BAR THROUGH SLICK TECHNIQUE OR THROUGH STRENGTH/SIZE GAINS? YOUR THOUGHT THAT ALL ROADS LEAD TO ONE IS WRONG OVERALL, AND SOMEDAY WILL LIKELY CRUSH YOU UNDER THE BAR.

i’m done i won’t feed him either.

[/quote]

Uhm, isnt that basically what I was saying?

48

[quote]donovanbrambila wrote:

Am I the only one who still reads the daily article?
You have examples from every field, powerlifting, sports training, bodybuilding (what forum is this again?), etc., all doing the same thing. Training muscles, NOT movements. [/quote]

Also, Jim Wendler recently said something like: “Assistant work: Movements not muscles. Learned this from Dave Tate and John Bott.” So there,s another one for you.

49

Fuck you to all the people who told me to train movements, not muscles. You wasted two years of my life with mediocre gains. I busted my ass but barely saw great improvements; those only came during the times when I trained intuitively. For all your know how, you guys are small as shit for how much you’ve worked.

Also thank you to all the big guys who preach methods that work. Right now I’m actually getting results thanks to your lack of bullshit.

50

[quote]dankid wrote:
donovanbrambila wrote:

Am I the only one who still reads the daily article?
You have examples from every field, powerlifting, sports training, bodybuilding (what forum is this again?), etc., all doing the same thing. Training muscles, NOT movements.

I dont know what you read, but I see at least half of those guys mentioning movements, not muscles. Sure Dave Tate says, tricep work, and does JM presses for his triceps, but he is doing it to improve a movement. And powerlifters like him train mainly movements. And then train the muscles as accessory.

Honestly agree with what someone else said that there really isn’t a difference, and that its just semantics. But you have a couple of guys that came in here and started this crap, stating that training movements was crap. And then they went even as far as to say that athletes should train muscles, not movements. But this is just plain wrong.

A good athlete will not say, oh man if my chest were just 2" bigger I would be so much better at my sport. They train their pressing strength with bench press, or they train their squat. If getting a bigger chest will help them bench more, then they’ll get that, but its not the goal.[/quote]

I’m not sure what the fuck YOU read, or what ass backwards logic you used when you read it, but when a guy couldnt bench, Tate said train your triceps (a muscle), not bench more. When Abel’s client sucked at training legs, he literally told him train muscles, not movements. When Thib’s client couldn’t squat, he hammered his posterior chain (a muscle group), he didnt say squat more. When the hip thrust dude (the name eludes me) was given clients, he didnt say, the problem is that you cant reverse hyper enough, it was that they had weak posterior chains, so they improved the muscles. With the exception of the Gentilcore piece, every single fucking quote was about training the muscles.

And cut out this fucking bullshit about the “good athletes”. Youre begging the fucking question. Youre defining a good athlete as someone who trains movements, then saying train movements, cuz that’s what good athletes do. Circular reasoning much?

Powerlifters do not just train movements. They train FOR movements. There is a huge fucking difference there. Benching more is not a solution for a shitty bench. Fixing the weak muscular link is. Football players do not deadlift because gee, deadlifts are just so dandy. They do it because it strengthens important MUSCLES used for football.

Simply training movements when one has a weak link, which everyone does in some way or another, is a great way to make that link weaker. So please, pull your head outside of your ass and realize that youre the only chewing on your shit.

51

[quote]dankid wrote:
The only other thing I can add, is that if doing isolation moves for your arm isn’t hurting your progress, than there is no reason not to include it. But IMO if you aren’t able to do a significant amount of weight on an exercise, then why do it?[/quote]

I know you think you’re correct on this, but please for the love of God don’t ever repeat it again. Someone might listen, and I don’t want that on my conscience.

Why do an exercise without a significant amount of weight?
1.Injury prevention
2.Maintaining good movement and firing patterns aaaaaannnnd…
3.If you have already done heavy shit, it’s more volume. If I do 5x5 with weighted chins and then some 12-15 rep sets on lat pulldown it’s light, but you’ll still get bigger than if you didn’t do it.

I’m a powerlifter. I’ve seen so many lifters, including myself, get hurt because of this attitude, it’s ridiculous. Shoulder problems, pec problems, constant tendonitis pain, postural problems, total bicep tears and so on.
I’ve gotten bigger and stronger by doing lighter work, and I’m free of constant chronic pain. 3 sets of bicep curls at least once a week, and my forearm and elbow pain is gone and my arms are half an inch bigger.
Doing most chins and rows so I can fully retract my scapula cuts the weight down a little, but my shoulders feel better, my bench has improved, and I’m still putting on muscle.

Lighter work has a place, and if you’re busting ass in other areas you’ll get muscle out of it as a bonus.

I apologise for going off topic a little. I get riled up over some stuff.

52

It’s funny, in dankid’s link where he supposedly “proves” his powerlifters don’t do curls thing, one of the first logs is Matt K’s and yesterday was his @#$#$%********ARMS!*******@#$@# fucking day.

53

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
It’s funny, in dankid’s link where he supposedly “proves” his powerlifters don’t do curls thing, one of the first logs is Matt K’s and yesterday was his @#$#$%********ARMS!*******@#$@# fucking day.[/quote]

Its funny, I didn’t post that link, AND he is an extremely advanced lifter that is freaking huge and strong. Im sure if you asked him if he’d use a body part split for 99% of T-Nation users he’d say no. He’d probably say he’d do a basic push/pull/leg split.

54

Smokotime I see where you are going with this, and I myself do in fact do some “light” stuff for prehab and such, but we are talking about building muscle and Curls. You over-generalized my statement about light weights being useless. It is my opinion based on my experience that if you are doing a movement to build muscle, then the weight better be heavy. And it is my opinion that for many people, its much easier to increase your strength focusing on fewer compound exercises than having a bunch of exercises to target each individual muscle.

Sure there are people that will get huge doing sets of 20 on curls and hitting 5 different exercises to hit the bicep at every angle, but I feel this isn’t the majority of people. And im entitled to my opinion just as much as everyone else on here.

55

[quote]dankid wrote:
Smokotime I see where you are going with this, and I myself do in fact do some “light” stuff for prehab and such, but we are talking about building muscle and Curls. You over-generalized my statement about light weights being useless. It is my opinion based on my experience that if you are doing a movement to build muscle, then the weight better be heavy. And it is my opinion that for many people, its much easier to increase your strength focusing on fewer compound exercises than having a bunch of exercises to target each individual muscle. Sure there are people that will get huge doing sets of 20 on curls and hitting 5 different exercises to hit the bicep at every angle, but I feel this isn’t the majority of people. And im entitled to my opinion just as much as everyone else on here.[/quote]

You seem to be under the impression that all the people disagreeing with you think everyone should be doing “sets of 20 on curls and hitting 5 different exercises to hit the bicep at every angle”, and that there are only two options here: (1) focus on a handful of “compound” exercises, and (2) do a million isolation exercises

The best way to train is to do a moderate amount of compound and isolation exercises, without neglecting any muscle groups, and without doing more than you can recover from.

And “heavy” is always relative. Just because a person may be using 30lbs for dumbbell curls, that may be “heavy” for them if they are a beginner and can only get 6 reps with it. But you think it’s useless because it’s not heavy, compared to WHAT?

Surely you understand that your full squat isn’t going to be as heavy as your deadlift, and your bench isn’t going to be as heavy as your squat, and your military press isn’t going to be as heavy as your bench press, so why don’t you understand that your barbell curl isn’t going to be as heavy as your military press - but its still an essential exercise?

56

[quote]mr popular wrote:
dankid wrote:

You seem to be under the impression that all the people disagreeing with you think everyone should be doing “sets of 20 on curls and hitting 5 different exercises to hit the bicep at every angle”, and that there are only two options here: (1) focus on a handful of “compound” exercises, and (2) do a million isolation exercises

The best way to train is to do a moderate amount of compound and isolation exercises, without neglecting any muscle groups, and without doing more than you can recover from.

And “heavy” is always relative. Just because a person may be using 30lbs for dumbbell curls, that may be “heavy” for them if they are a beginner and can only get 6 reps with it. But you think it’s useless because it’s not heavy, compared to WHAT?

Surely you understand that your full squat isn’t going to be as heavy as your deadlift, and your bench isn’t going to be as heavy as your squat, and your military press isn’t going to be as heavy as your bench press, so why don’t you understand that your barbell curl isn’t going to be as heavy as your military press - but its still an essential exercise?[/quote]

I see what you are saying, and I tend to agree. IF someone can get it all done without having to do a ton of exercises then I think its definately doable. But from what I see in the gym, people tend to “over-isolate” and get to where they are “working the muscle” and not lifting weights to get stronger/bigger. And its almost ALWAYS a bunch of exercises for arms/shoulders and just a few for legs.

I first started getting interested in lifting when I read beyond brawn, which took a very minimalistic approach to things. And I think, up to a certain level, people will actually get better results with JUST:

Bench
Squat
Deadlift
Press
Row
Clean (optional)
Lunges

I think this can take them very far, and most people I see in the gym never take the time to learn to do any of these properly let alone get strong at them.

Then, after you have built up your strength a bit, start adding stuff like:

Curls
Tricep pushdowns
Shoulder raises
Direct Trap work
Pullups and pulldowns
Direct calf work
Leg ext
Leg curls
etc.

And I still feel you should add the minimal amount of exercises to get the results you want. But I see many people that will hit up a machine press, or a bench with horrible form and no ROM. Then they’ll head over to the DB’s and do what seems to be 10-20+ sets of bicep curls and shoulder raises with weights that are way heavier than they can actually lift, but they fling them around (This is pretty much their only lower body work) And then they head over to the pulleys and do some “pump” sets on tricep pushdowns and flys. And you know what some of them are pretty big, and some of them are even strong. But I dont think this way works for everybody, and that is why im stating my opinion, and that is that the less exercises you do, the more weight you can lift, and likely the faster you will progress to a level where you might need isolation exercises.

I know that my generalization based on what i see in my gym is a huge generalization, so dont flame me stating that all bodybuilders dont train this way. I know that all dont. Im just offering my opinions based on experience and what ive read and agree with for people to make the decision as to what might work for them, if the “traditional” methods dont work.

***And I never said isolation is useless and bodypart splits were crap. I said that for athlete it pretty much is so, and that taking a movement based approach is a good idea. (Or if I did speak otherwise, I was wrong and didn’t think about what I was saying)

57

[quote]dankid wrote:
mr popular wrote:
dankid wrote:

You seem to be under the impression that all the people disagreeing with you think everyone should be doing “sets of 20 on curls and hitting 5 different exercises to hit the bicep at every angle”, and that there are only two options here: (1) focus on a handful of “compound” exercises, and (2) do a million isolation exercises

The best way to train is to do a moderate amount of compound and isolation exercises, without neglecting any muscle groups, and without doing more than you can recover from.

And “heavy” is always relative. Just because a person may be using 30lbs for dumbbell curls, that may be “heavy” for them if they are a beginner and can only get 6 reps with it. But you think it’s useless because it’s not heavy, compared to WHAT?

Surely you understand that your full squat isn’t going to be as heavy as your deadlift, and your bench isn’t going to be as heavy as your squat, and your military press isn’t going to be as heavy as your bench press, so why don’t you understand that your barbell curl isn’t going to be as heavy as your military press - but its still an essential exercise?

I see what you are saying, and I tend to agree. IF someone can get it all done without having to do a ton of exercises then I think its definately doable. But from what I see in the gym, people tend to “over-isolate” and get to where they are “working the muscle” and not lifting weights to get stronger/bigger. And its almost ALWAYS a bunch of exercises for arms/shoulders and just a few for legs.

I first started getting interested in lifting when I read beyond brawn, which took a very minimalistic approach to things. And I think, up to a certain level, people will actually get better results with JUST:

Bench
Squat
Deadlift
Press
Row
Clean (optional)
Lunges

I think this can take them very far, and most people I see in the gym never take the time to learn to do any of these properly let alone get strong at them.

Then, after you have built up your strength a bit, start adding stuff like:

Curls
Tricep pushdowns
Shoulder raises
Direct Trap work
Pullups and pulldowns
Direct calf work
Leg ext
Leg curls
etc.

And I still feel you should add the minimal amount of exercises to get the results you want. But I see many people that will hit up a machine press, or a bench with horrible form and no ROM. Then they’ll head over to the DB’s and do what seems to be 10-20+ sets of bicep curls and shoulder raises with weights that are way heavier than they can actually lift, but they fling them around (This is pretty much their only lower body work) And then they head over to the pulleys and do some “pump” sets on tricep pushdowns and flys. And you know what some of them are pretty big, and some of them are even strong. But I dont think this way works for everybody, and that is why im stating my opinion, and that is that the less exercises you do, the more weight you can lift, and likely the faster you will progress to a level where you might need isolation exercises.

I know that my generalization based on what i see in my gym is a huge generalization, so dont flame me stating that all bodybuilders dont train this way. I know that all dont. Im just offering my opinions based on experience and what ive read and agree with for people to make the decision as to what might work for them, if the “traditional” methods dont work.

***And I never said isolation is useless and bodypart splits were crap. I said that for athlete it pretty much is so, and that taking a movement based approach is a good idea. (Or if I did speak otherwise, I was wrong and didn’t think about what I was saying)

[/quote]

The reason why your advice is horrible is because you think that when you see someone doing something wrong you lump everyone who does a similar movement into that category. It shows that you don’t have the experience necessary to give out advice to anyone but yourself. It’s also the reason why you make your opinion known then get laughed at and then have to backtrack and admit that your ‘advice’ isn’t actually suitable for more than just a small handful of individuals.

You’ve made a habit of spewing misinformation and it’s the reason why this isn’t the first thread that you’ve been completely corrected in. But someone like you won’t get it and you’ll continue to give out shit advice and contiue to be corrected by people who actually use their brains before hitting a few keys and pressing submit.

58

What kind of athlete are we talking about here? You can’t just apply one rule to all athletes because unless you’re more specific we can’t know what he’s hoping to gain by training benchpress. Is he looking for more pushing power regardless of where it comes from or is he trying to strengthen his pecs? For all we know he might simply want some more mass on his chest as a protective armor of sorts.

Different athletes have different needs. By the way, most powerlifters would probably be thrilled to add 1-2 inches to their chest (or upper back) since it would mean shorter distance for the bar to travel.

[quote]donovanbrambila wrote:
Powerlifters do not just train movements. They train FOR movements. There is a huge fucking difference there. Benching more is not a solution for a shitty bench. Fixing the weak muscular link is. Football players do not deadlift because gee, deadlifts are just so dandy. They do it because it strengthens important MUSCLES used for football.[/quote]

This is a good point. As an example I wanted a bigger deadlift at the start of this year but not only did I suck at deadlifting, my hammies and lower back were also limiting me. So naturally I did a lot of deadlifting to train the movement but I also pounded the hell out of my hammies and lower back, in other words I trained those muscles. The result? A (much) bigger deadlift, who’da thunk it?!

I don’t train for bodybuilding even though a balanced and good looking physique is something I appreciate, most of the time I just set goals for myself because I like the challenge of reaching them. I guess you could say I train for performence more than looks and yet I have a lot of use of training muscles over movements. It’s all just a means to an end and that’s my point. If you want to become better at a movement you train that movement, if you want to fix a weakness or simply make a certain muscle bigger/stronger you train that muscle. Saying that athletes should always train movements rather than muscles is absurd.

59

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
…admit that your ‘advice’ isn’t actually suitable for more than just a small handful of individuals.

You’ve made a habit of spewing misinformation and it’s the reason why this isn’t the first thread that you’ve been completely corrected in. [/quote]

The advice I give is for people similar to myself, and this isnt a small handful of individuals. I imagine there are a lot more people on this forum that are more similar to me, than the few jerks that im not even trying to give advice to. Sure im not going to give advice to a guy that has 20"+ arms, thats just silly. But there are a ton of people on this forum, many of whom might not even post, that can benefit from my advise.

And I haven’t spewed any misinformation whatsover. Everything is opinion on here, and if it wasn’t you guys that “know everything” would have some proof. But you dont. Instead you rely on insults and arguing to try to make up for this. If you dont like my advice, ignore it, or disagree with it and state why, but if you are just going to try to talk crap, i’ll just keep ignoring all of you and keep giving my advice.

60

[quote]dankid wrote:

And I haven’t spewed any misinformation whatsover. Everything is opinion on here, and if it wasn’t you guys that “know everything” would have some proof. But you dont.[/quote]

The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

Our proof is in the RESULTS, both the results we create in ourselves and the results of every other successful bodybuilder. (No I don’t mean competitive guys, I mean regular dudes we see around us that get big by doing the traditional stuff)

There is nothing wrong with bench presses, squats, deadlifts, dips, and so forth… but there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to exclude curls and calf raises and lateral raises from that. These aren’t exercises that you “earn” the right to do once you can bench a certain amount of weight, they are part of the BASICS. That is what people mean when they say you are putting misinformation out there, and a lot of people on this website - myself included - are a little bitter because we followed bad advice when we were beginners.