Lateral Delts on Push or Pull Day?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]dankid wrote:
sam_sneed wrote:
dankid wrote:

  1. You may need some direct tricep work on your push day, but if you do the bench or OHP with a narrow grip then it probably wouldn’t be needed. And i’d drop the curls, but thats up to you.

Why drop the curls? I don’t see where he directly works his biceps anywhere else in his workout. Same goes for the bench with the narrow grip. If he goes close grip, he’s not going to give his chest the workout it needs. It’s like trading chest for tricep development. Why not do the bench the normal way and add a tricep exercise in the routine?

Its mainly my opinion, but if he’s doing deadlifts, Rows, chinups, and something like facepulls, he doesn’t really need to directly work biceps. Its the old direct arm work debate, but im just saying it probably isn’t needed if he’s training everything pretty hard. I could easily see dropping one pulling movement and adding direct bicep work, but thats up to him.

As for training the chest, he’s got two presses, dips, and flys. That 4 exerises for chest, one of them being direct. If he changes one of the presses to CG, he’ll still work his chest on that movement, AND 3 other movements. Or, he can maybe drop dips or one press and do tricep extensions.

[/quote]

LOL. Yeah, kids…you don’t want to train like a fucking bodybuilder on a bodybuilding forum. Let’s avoid training all of those muscles directly because then they would get really big and strong…and we’re shooting for “not so big”.

22

Can I just say that I started a bodypart split 3 weeks ago and started growing. Its simple and boring, but the weights on my lifts are going up, I’m getting bigger, and I actually have energy for class (which I didn’t when I was squatting/deadlifting 3x per week.

also - do you guys prefer traps on back day or shoulder day? and rear delts on back day or shoulder day? …or is my question arbitrary as I have some rest between those days?

23

[quote]dankid wrote:
sam_sneed wrote:
dankid wrote:

  1. You may need some direct tricep work on your push day, but if you do the bench or OHP with a narrow grip then it probably wouldn’t be needed. And i’d drop the curls, but thats up to you.

Why drop the curls? I don’t see where he directly works his biceps anywhere else in his workout. Same goes for the bench with the narrow grip. If he goes close grip, he’s not going to give his chest the workout it needs. It’s like trading chest for tricep development. Why not do the bench the normal way and add a tricep exercise in the routine?

Its mainly my opinion, but if he’s doing deadlifts, Rows, chinups, and something like facepulls, he doesn’t really need to directly work biceps. Its the old direct arm work debate, but im just saying it probably isn’t needed if he’s training everything pretty hard. I could easily see dropping one pulling movement and adding direct bicep work, but thats up to him.

As for training the chest, he’s got two presses, dips, and flys. That 4 exerises for chest, one of them being direct. If he changes one of the presses to CG, he’ll still work his chest on that movement, AND 3 other movements. Or, he can maybe drop dips or one press and do tricep extensions.

[/quote]

I’m still a beginner, but a at least a beginner that is now making decent progress.

I used to believe in the “you don’t need direct arm work” bullshit. I did stuff like 5x5 etc, for the first year of my training.

Then about 4-5 months ago, I said fuck it and started training a normal bodybuilding 5-day split, and doing curls. What happened? My arms went from pathetic 14 inches at-least-that-not-fucking-small 16 inches in 4 months. If you want bigger arms, which I assume people do when they are posting in the BODYBUILDING forum, then do direct arm work with as much intensity as any other body part.

24

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
Can I just say that I started a bodypart split 3 weeks ago and started growing. Its simple and boring, but the weights on my lifts are going up, I’m getting bigger, and I actually have energy for class (which I didn’t when I was squatting/deadlifting 3x per week.

also - do you guys prefer traps on back day or shoulder day? and rear delts on back day or shoulder day? …or is my question arbitrary as I have some rest between those days?[/quote]

If I’m doing Sumo Deads or Rack Pulls with scap retraction after lockout, then my traps are often shot for the rest of the week… I usually had traps on shoulder day whenever I didn’t do sumos or rack pulls on back day. (kind of prefer to pull heavy only every other week rather than all the time).

Now if you’re still using smaller poundages, then I guess just try to give your traps enough time between back and shoulder+trap day if you choose to follow that format (and depending on your exercise selection for back day… Yates rows hit the traps ok as well, as do kroc rows if you stand a tad more upright, say, hand on the DB rack instead of a bench or so. Other rowing variants don’t affect my (upper) traps much.

I prefer to have direct trap work on shoulder day on a 4-6-way split rather than on back day because my grip is fresh again, my forearms aren’t pumped, I’m not as exhausted etc and can thus use more weight and do it for more reps.

25

As for rear delts, by all means do them again on shoulder day… Small muscle and usually overlooked.
Some row variants hit them pretty damn well, but additional inverted rows, reverse pec deck or some such are usually a good idea for the sake of shoulder health.

26

I thought push/pull/legs was just a short way of saying Chest&shoulders&triceps / Back&biceps / legs

didnt realise people did it literally

27

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

also - do you guys prefer traps on back day or shoulder day? and rear delts on back day or shoulder day? …or is my question arbitrary as I have some rest between those days?[/quote]

You do them on PULL day. This is why a movement based approach is better. Pulling movements will hit your lats, upper back, rear delts and biceps. Pushing movements will hit your shoulders, chest, and triceps.

Most exercises that hit your traps can hit your rear delts. You could probably do it twice and be fine, but from the push/pull/leg standpoint, there is no confusion.

And your arms probably blew up because you had developed a base from 5x5, and it was time to add direct arm work.

That being said, there are plenty of people that dont directly train their arms with isolation movements that have huge arms, and there are plenty of people that train them directly with tiny arms. You cant go based on a couple of meatheads’ opinions on a forum.

Trying it is the only way you’ll know for sure. If you are doing stuff like CG bench, and incline bench and your chest/shoulders are getting overtrained, but your triceps are undertrained, then it may be time to put a lot of emphasis on your triceps. While others will just get bigger and stronger by just doing more CG bench and OHP.

The only other thing I can add, is that if doing isolation moves for your arm isn’t hurting your progress, than there is no reason not to include it. But IMO if you aren’t able to do a significant amount of weight on an exercise, then why do it?

28

[quote]dankid wrote:
browndisaster wrote:

also - do you guys prefer traps on back day or shoulder day? and rear delts on back day or shoulder day? …or is my question arbitrary as I have some rest between those days?

You do them on PULL day. This is why a movement based approach is better. Pulling movements will hit your lats, upper back, rear delts and biceps. Pushing movements will hit your shoulders, chest, and triceps.

Most exercises that hit your traps can hit your rear delts. You could probably do it twice and be fine, but from the push/pull/leg standpoint, there is no confusion.

And your arms probably blew up because you had developed a base from 5x5, and it was time to add direct arm work.

That being said, there are plenty of people that dont directly train their arms with isolation movements that have huge arms, and there are plenty of people that train them directly with tiny arms. You cant go based on a couple of meatheads’ opinions on a forum. [/quote]

PROVE IT. This is such complete bullshit. I don’t understand how you expect anyone to believe what you are saying. Where are these guys with 19" arms that don’t do some form of a bicep curl?? Show 2 examples please.

[quote]

Trying it is the only way you’ll know for sure. If you are doing stuff like CG bench, and incline bench and your chest/shoulders are getting overtrained, but your triceps are undertrained, then it may be time to put a lot of emphasis on your triceps. While others will just get bigger and stronger by just doing more CG bench and OHP.

The only other thing I can add, is that if doing isolation moves for your arm isn’t hurting your progress, than there is no reason not to include it. But IMO if you aren’t able to do a significant amount of weight on an exercise, then why do it?[/quote]

The last statement you’ve made is the single most unintelligent thing I have ever read on muscle building website. Bar none.

29

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
dankid wrote:
browndisaster wrote:

also - do you guys prefer traps on back day or shoulder day? and rear delts on back day or shoulder day? …or is my question arbitrary as I have some rest between those days?

You do them on PULL day. This is why a movement based approach is better. Pulling movements will hit your lats, upper back, rear delts and biceps. Pushing movements will hit your shoulders, chest, and triceps.

Most exercises that hit your traps can hit your rear delts. You could probably do it twice and be fine, but from the push/pull/leg standpoint, there is no confusion.

And your arms probably blew up because you had developed a base from 5x5, and it was time to add direct arm work.

That being said, there are plenty of people that dont directly train their arms with isolation movements that have huge arms, and there are plenty of people that train them directly with tiny arms. You cant go based on a couple of meatheads’ opinions on a forum.

PROVE IT. This is such complete bullshit. I don’t understand how you expect anyone to believe what you are saying. Where are these guys with 19" arms that don’t do some form of a bicep curl?? Show 2 examples please.

Trying it is the only way you’ll know for sure. If you are doing stuff like CG bench, and incline bench and your chest/shoulders are getting overtrained, but your triceps are undertrained, then it may be time to put a lot of emphasis on your triceps. While others will just get bigger and stronger by just doing more CG bench and OHP.

The only other thing I can add, is that if doing isolation moves for your arm isn’t hurting your progress, than there is no reason not to include it. But IMO if you aren’t able to do a significant amount of weight on an exercise, then why do it?

The last statement you’ve made is the single most unintelligent thing I have ever read on muscle building website. Bar none. [/quote]

Go dig it up yourself. There are plenty of powerlifters that have huge biceps that never do a curl at all.

30

[quote]dankid wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
dankid wrote:
browndisaster wrote:

also - do you guys prefer traps on back day or shoulder day? and rear delts on back day or shoulder day? …or is my question arbitrary as I have some rest between those days?

You do them on PULL day. This is why a movement based approach is better. Pulling movements will hit your lats, upper back, rear delts and biceps. Pushing movements will hit your shoulders, chest, and triceps.

Most exercises that hit your traps can hit your rear delts. You could probably do it twice and be fine, but from the push/pull/leg standpoint, there is no confusion.

And your arms probably blew up because you had developed a base from 5x5, and it was time to add direct arm work.

That being said, there are plenty of people that dont directly train their arms with isolation movements that have huge arms, and there are plenty of people that train them directly with tiny arms. You cant go based on a couple of meatheads’ opinions on a forum.

PROVE IT. This is such complete bullshit. I don’t understand how you expect anyone to believe what you are saying. Where are these guys with 19" arms that don’t do some form of a bicep curl?? Show 2 examples please.

Trying it is the only way you’ll know for sure. If you are doing stuff like CG bench, and incline bench and your chest/shoulders are getting overtrained, but your triceps are undertrained, then it may be time to put a lot of emphasis on your triceps. While others will just get bigger and stronger by just doing more CG bench and OHP.

The only other thing I can add, is that if doing isolation moves for your arm isn’t hurting your progress, than there is no reason not to include it. But IMO if you aren’t able to do a significant amount of weight on an exercise, then why do it?

The last statement you’ve made is the single most unintelligent thing I have ever read on muscle building website. Bar none.

Go dig it up yourself. There are plenty of powerlifters that have huge biceps that never do a curl at all.[/quote]

http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/training-logs.asp

read

31

All this movement training bashing rhetoric makes me sick. If there is progressive overload it will work as good as anything

32

[quote]jasmincar wrote:
All this movement training bashing rhetoric makes me sick. If there is progressive overload it will work as good as anything[/quote]

Adding 10lbs to your bench press isn’t the same as adding 10lbs to your bench press by consciously using your pec muscles to do the pressing.

“Train movements not muscles” is dumb, even for athletes.

33

[quote]mr popular wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
All this movement training bashing rhetoric makes me sick. If there is progressive overload it will work as good as anything

Adding 10lbs to your bench press isn’t the same as adding 10lbs to your bench press by consciously using your pec muscles to do the pressing.

“Train movements not muscles” is dumb, even for athletes.[/quote]

/end the thread with an idiotic post like this.

10 pounds, is 10 pounds. You are now able to lift 10 pounds more on the bench, which means you have the potential to expose your chest muscles to 10 extra pounds of weight. Is this not the same as increasing your bench 10lbs by wiggling your pinky toes while imagining you are some great bodybuilder.

34

[quote]Professor X wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Professor X wrote:
sam_sneed wrote:
Lateral raises are a shoulder exercise so why wouldn’t you work them the same day as your other shoulder exercises? Do all your shoulder exercises one day and you won’t have to worry about stuff like this.

That’s way too easy. You must have missed the memo where we all agreed that making shit overly complicated so that people don’t achieve anywhere near the same is what we all want.

In this forum, the last thing we want to see is people with big muscles.

It’s really simple:

The shoulder bones is connected to the neck bones which is connected to the back bones which is connected to the liver bone. Turkeys have livers which are connected to the thigh bone. Chickens have thigh bones and breasts, too.

I like breasts.

I do lateral delts when I think about breasts.

My lateral delts are exploding.

That was fucking brilliant.

However, let me see if I can add some illumination to this theory of yours.

If the biceps is connected to the humerus…and I find the acting of Steven Seagal to be humorous, and if Seagal appeared in the movie Hard To Kill where he broke a guy’s left leg, then training legs unilaterally should help me grow even bigger quads?

Holy shit, I think I just blew my own mind.

Could someone clarify this for me even further?[/quote]

I’d be happy to clarify…

The biceps brachii aren’t attached to the humerus:

35

[quote]dankid wrote:
mr popular wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
All this movement training bashing rhetoric makes me sick. If there is progressive overload it will work as good as anything

Adding 10lbs to your bench press isn’t the same as adding 10lbs to your bench press by consciously using your pec muscles to do the pressing.

“Train movements not muscles” is dumb, even for athletes.

/end the thread with an idiotic post like this.

10 pounds, is 10 pounds. You are now able to lift 10 pounds more on the bench, which means you have the potential to expose your chest muscles to 10 extra pounds of weight. Is this not the same as increasing your bench 10lbs by wiggling your pinky toes while imagining you are some great bodybuilder.[/quote]

You know nothing.

36

All of this “training movement patterns vs bodyparts” always seemed a bit silly to me. In the end it’s all about putting together a bunch of exercises in a reasonably logical order to get the results you’re after. Fucking semantics imo.

37

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
dankid wrote:
browndisaster wrote:

also - do you guys prefer traps on back day or shoulder day? and rear delts on back day or shoulder day? …or is my question arbitrary as I have some rest between those days?

You do them on PULL day. This is why a movement based approach is better. Pulling movements will hit your lats, upper back, rear delts and biceps. Pushing movements will hit your shoulders, chest, and triceps.

Most exercises that hit your traps can hit your rear delts. You could probably do it twice and be fine, but from the push/pull/leg standpoint, there is no confusion.

And your arms probably blew up because you had developed a base from 5x5, and it was time to add direct arm work.

That being said, there are plenty of people that dont directly train their arms with isolation movements that have huge arms, and there are plenty of people that train them directly with tiny arms. You cant go based on a couple of meatheads’ opinions on a forum.

PROVE IT. This is such complete bullshit. I don’t understand how you expect anyone to believe what you are saying. Where are these guys with 19" arms that don’t do some form of a bicep curl?? Show 2 examples please.

Trying it is the only way you’ll know for sure. If you are doing stuff like CG bench, and incline bench and your chest/shoulders are getting overtrained, but your triceps are undertrained, then it may be time to put a lot of emphasis on your triceps. While others will just get bigger and stronger by just doing more CG bench and OHP.

The only other thing I can add, is that if doing isolation moves for your arm isn’t hurting your progress, than there is no reason not to include it. But IMO if you aren’t able to do a significant amount of weight on an exercise, then why do it?

The last statement you’ve made is the single most unintelligent thing I have ever read on muscle building website. Bar none. [/quote]

I wish I had listened to this guy and quit when I started out lifting but couldn’t go heavy on any given exercise or else I wouldn’t have gained just this measly 80 lbs of LBM. I could’ve just quit those exercises because I couldn’t lift a lot on them, and then I could be Ronnie Coleman right now! Damn myself!

38

[quote]mr popular wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
All this movement training bashing rhetoric makes me sick. If there is progressive overload it will work as good as anything

Adding 10lbs to your bench press isn’t the same as adding 10lbs to your bench press by consciously using your pec muscles to do the pressing.

“Train movements not muscles” is dumb, even for athletes.[/quote]

Exactly

I mean would you rather add 100lbs to your bench press and add 1 inch to your chest, or add 50lbs to your bench and add 2 inches to your chest.

39

Am I the only one who still reads the daily article?
You have examples from every field, powerlifting, sports training, bodybuilding (what forum is this again?), etc., all doing the same thing. Training muscles, NOT movements.

40

[quote]Anonymas wrote:
mr popular wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
All this movement training bashing rhetoric makes me sick. If there is progressive overload it will work as good as anything

Adding 10lbs to your bench press isn’t the same as adding 10lbs to your bench press by consciously using your pec muscles to do the pressing.

“Train movements not muscles” is dumb, even for athletes.

Exactly

I mean would you rather add 100lbs to your bench press and add 1 inch to your chest, or add 50lbs to your bench and add 2 inches to your chest.[/quote]

Is this a serious question. 100lbs to the bench press and 1 inch to your chest. Any REAL athlete would actually take 100lbs on their bench press and 0" on their chest over 50lbs and 2". This is part of the reason why a lot of people dont consider bb’ers athletes.