Creed and Tinman,
The Romans used to match all the animals against each other (and people) for amusement and the Lion always came out on top. Again, that’s why they call it the King of Beasts!
Lion beats them all!
Romans didnt have polar bears
Before I write anymore I need to clear up a difference between kung fu and what “Jet Li” does. Jet Li does wu shu and it’s basically a “pretty-looking” form of kung fu. It’s NOT real kung fu.
And furthermore, Kung fu = martial arts. So that means boxing is a type of kung fu and wrestling is a type of kung fu.
Anyway, sorry to take it off topic… now back to the question. First of all, I’m not very knowledgeable about this but I talked to my roommate who is.
I suppose the main question here is big guy vs. little guy and he told me that when a big guy fights a little guy, the little guy is at a disadvantage.
He also concedes that IF the big guy were to get the little guy in a hold, then little guy would most likely be toast.
However, that been said, there are ways to prevent the big guy from getting the little guy in the hold in the first place.
He told me that once when he was faced in a similar situation (not that similar, he’s 5’11, 180 lbs while the other guy was roughly 6’2 and maybe a little over 200) my roommate went straight for the guy’s throat and then a swipe at the knee and bam, the guy was over with).
So basically he says that no matter how big a person gets, he will always have weak spots that cannot really be trained (e.g. eyes, spine, knees, throat, etc…). and that’s what experienced fighters are trained to do, attack those weak spots.
a bear vs a lion? this is like one of dem dare muhammid ali vs bruce lee threads…
remy, you talk like big guys are big idiots and like they wouldn’t go for the same spots the little guys go for.
let’s see… what happens when a big guy crushes a little guy’s throat? hmm…
what happens when a big guy pokes the little guy’s eyes out? hmmm…
bottom line is big guys have a huge advanage whether they have major fighting skills or not, that’s why so many competitions are broken down to weight classes (wrestling, boxing, powerlifting, etc). a little guy who thinks he can take on any big man with his kung fu, taekwondo, karate, or any unrealistic fighting style is delusional and is bound to get get his ass killed (he will prove that he does not make the cut when it comes to natural selection).
granted, each fighting style has its superb fighters, but their existence alone cannot give credance to all fighters of that style.
Where does quickness come in then? Most big guys are much slower than the smaller guys.
“It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog.”
Remy,
Your room mate is a 20 something sissy boy who knows nothing about real world fighting. Never listen to him again!
Okay, now that we got that cleared up some of the problems that anyone would have in dealing with someone, lets say 50lbs or more larger than them is this:
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They can most likely strike harder (or as hard if the little guy is well trained).
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You have to deal with their weight, in other words you have to be even stronger than the big guy. He only has to deal with your weight which is much less.
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You have to actually hurt him to stop him. This is hard because a larger opponent usually has larger bones. Hence a larger chin, head etc.
No question there are more problems in dealing with a larger, stronger person. These are some of them.
danh, ZEB:
True, if both the big guy and the little guy were both trained in the same ways of fighting the big guy would have an advantage.
But if this were a fight between a wrestler and a small buy who trained in multiple forms of martial arts, then it would be hard to say.
Also, there is a point where size becomes a disadvantage. Though big guys like to think that huge muscles make them a better fighter, sometimes it can slow them down.
A lot of you might point to UFC/Pride type fights, but those fights are custom made for wrestlers with their soft padding. Take it out on the street and I would like to see how they do.
Remy,Zeb
A wrestler on the street might still be inclined to take an opponent down on concrete because he will land on top of the opponent in most cases and would probably cause more damage this way. A body slam to the canvas is one thing but to asphalt, ouch.
A few extra things that a big guy would have to his advantage:
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Reach and height advantage is a biggie when it comes to striking. He is in range when you aren’t. This can be overcome but it is a definite disadvantage for the shorter guy.
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Strength, he can breaks out of holds or use it to control you more easily. Or in a more directly offensive manner to choke/submit or throw you.
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The psychological effect of size is enough to mentally win the fight sometimes perhaps less important against an experienced confident fighter it should not be overlooked. The little guy may beat himself by thinking he can’t possibly win against the bigger more powerful opponent. Human beings are preprogrammed to avoid fights they can’t win which is why big guys are untilised in door-work, bodyguarding as a deterrent factor.
Creed. Great points, especially number 3.
So I guess we can say these 3 generalities
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If a big guy and a small guy are both trained in the same fighting methods then the big guy will have an advantage.
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If the a big guy is trained as a wrestler and the small guy is trained as a striker, the big guy will still have a slight advantage
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If an untrained person is fighting a trained person then the trained person will have an advantage the majority of the time, regardless of size
In addition to the points Remy makes.
If it seems like I am making a case for the big guy always winning I would like to add that I am a little guy (5’11" 185lb) and I would like to think that a small guy with the right training could take out or at least defend against most big guys.
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Strength, yes size correlates with strength but this is a generalisation. Compare anyone on this forum with an untrained member of the public and I’m sure you will find large disparities in strength (Of course the T-man will be stronger!)So the T-man might be smaller but stronger than the big, lard arse who’s never lifted more than his belly over his belt.
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Speed is a definite advantage of the smaller guy as sackocrack mentioned. Speed across the ground ‘fast feet’ will allow the small guy to stick and move.
Fast hands will allow him to strike with power and always connect because the big guy won’t be able to get out of the way. However if you can’t finish them quickly then it will invariably end up in a clinch and/or go to the ground.
Speed can help here too. He can use it to escape, gain position, or attack with out his opponent being able to react in time.
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Element of suprise, the big guy may expect an easy victory and be overconfident. This can allow the smaller guy to take advantage and attack aggressively upsetting the big guys resolve.
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Something that nobodies mentioned yet and I feel is perhaps the most overlooked quantity is condition. The small guy should have the better endurance which will allow him to outlast his bigger opponent and hopefully capitalise on the big guys state of fatigue. If he can stay in the fight that long.
Alot of these qualities can be trained and improved on along with the biggest factor which is skill. With skill you can properly react to or negate any advantage your less skillful opponent has.
Okay Guys,
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Conditioning does not have much to do with a good one on one street fight. They are usually over in under a minute. There are exceptions but not many.
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Grappling is most important as according to the Gracies and the LA Police stats, 95% of all fights end in a grappling situation. Hence, big or small the grappler has a huge advantage.
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The larger man will win virtually every time if he has any grappling experience at all. Even just a High School background. As creed correctly pointed out the pavement is harder than a mat and if both go down, while the grappler may skin his knees his opponent will be slamming onto the ground back and head first.
So, its good to be large, strong, and know grappling. Other than that I would say being “game” is very important. If you have a cause to be in the fight you will do better.
Never fight a big, strong, game man who knows grappling!
I will still take a big,(230lb) strong, game man with no experience over a well trained 150lb black belt. I have seen many loggers who are not battle hardend but very tough guys. It is easy to see that they are very rough customers and would dispense a typical 150lb black belt.
“It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog.”
Maybe, but then there is this old saying:
“I’ll take a good big dog over a good little dog”.
Endurance/conditioning is not a factor in a street fight. How many brawls have you seen last more than 1 minute or even 30 seconds? Probably none.
And another thing, all this talk about hitting “vital” targets, is BS. You chances of hitting any of these is slim to none. Even an “expert” is more than likely not going to be able to hit these small targets in the chaos of a street fight.
Strike first and overwhelm your opponent with a barrage of punches, you may get that lucky knockout punch. At the same time, you are closing the distance so that if you need to, you can work you grappling game. that is how a street fight is won. Nothing fancy.
a well trained KICKBOXER/GRAPPLER or BOXER will easly murder an untrained man, no matter how much he weighs. They are trained for confrontation, taken shots, amd have the tsamina to wear them out. TRADITIONAL martial arts are 50/50. they dont train to keep going, where kickboxers/grapplers do. Practice makes permenant.
I would have to agree with your points regarding conditioning not being a factor in street fights, cause as you say that’s the reality. But I would have to say that most times the reason the fights don’t last that long are because:
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The fights a total mismatch. Someone just batters someone weaker than themselves.
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There is no start command, so one combatant intiates and ends the fight almost straight away.
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The fight becomes a messy brawl with flailing arms and clueless cuddling with 3rd parties breaking up said fight to save embarassment.
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One or both of the parties decide fighting is not such a good idea after all and start looking for an ‘out’ which can often be provided by 3rd parties to save losing face (but everyone knows who chicken-shitted!)
But if you get two good name fighters then it is a different story and these can go on for some time. But these are admittedly rare and more like ‘impromptu’ matches as opposed to random fights.
You guys need to order the Pride GP Finals on PPV. It aired last night and was one of the best fighting cards ever. Forget all the fancy crap.
Seriously, you have to see it.
creed- Exactly.
That initial barrage usually ends the fight, either because one person is out of it, or a third party intervenes.
lats,
what’s your evidence? murder? have you seen enough murders by kickboxers to make that bold statement?
to be more specific, have you seen kickboxers murder people of VARIOUS sizes on the street to make that statement?
movies don’t count. hypotheticals are just that, hypotheticals.
i think based on eyewitness accounts all over the world there is more evidence to show that big fools can beat up on small bruce lee wannabes anyday.
can anyone else back up my suspicions that there is a significant number (of course not all) of martial artists that are delusional because of the unrealistic japanese cartoons they watched growing up?
i took a japanese language course once and the class was full of these dorks; i’m not a big guy, but i could take on these fools anyday regardless of what color belt they had. i think i mentioned that one fool in the gym i used to go to MEDITATED between his sets of 25-lb curls. can you believe that? fucking ridiculous.
Just to add credence to the point that grapplers have the advantage over strikers Mirko Filopovic just lost to Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira in Pride - Final Conflict by Armbar.
Yes Bob Sapp got knocked out by Cro-cop but that was in a K1 Kickboxing match not NHB rules. So you can see that when Bob Sapp gave Minotauro such a hard time that size does help!