Jumping & Dunking

Training Powerlifting
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[quote]nbutka wrote:
******well a clean has more to do with strength than speed. A vertical jump is quite a bit faster. But then again the heavier you are, the slower you will jump so when your 300lbs the clean may help there :slight_smile: *******

umm, absolutely not? speed and strength are required for the clean.

Powersnatch with minimal leg bend to catch has more correlation. But I don’t think any of these lifts develop VJ, they are just barometers IMO.
And they would most likely ingrain bad jumping motor patterns, too much muscling in the jump etc instead of being relaxed and reflexive**

wow your so off on that…this is my are of expertise so excuse me for coming on a little strong but thats so false its insane. snatches do require more force than the clean, yes, but neither lift develops poor motor patterns…there have been studies done which have shown that elite olympic lifters had better vertical measurements than individuals who actually trained jumping events in the olympics… there have been blind studies done with groups who trained in the olympic lifts and those who just strength trained and the individuals who performed the olympic lifts all had better finishing mile times, 40 yd dash times, etc than those who just strength trained. thats how much correlation these lifts actually have with jumping/speed/explosivity. thats truly the most miscoonceived idea i have ever heard about olympic lifting…go try an overhead squat right now with 100 kilos and tell me it doesnt require STRONG coordination and good motor patterns

its hillarious you prescribe two things that mimic olympic lifts to develop vertical…

[/quote]

Comparing Oly lifters to other strength trained athletes is a bit misleading; most Oly lifters have extremely high power to weight ratios except the heavyweights - they will therefore perform accordingly…

and just because they had better verts in some instances than those that trained jumping events is a bit misleading - taking the high jump for instance - the high jump is mostly technique - I know many a great high jumper that has a relatively weaker vert than his high jump ability would make you believe…in fact, I’ve knew a high jumper that could clear 7 feet but could not dunk

…long jump, probably requires more acceleration and speed than vert ability…should we continue?

My point is…APPLES TO APPLES comparisons…find a vertical jumping event (there is no such event) and compare THAT athlete’s vertical to OLY lifter’s verts.

I tend to agree with you though that the whole motor pattern issue might be over stated when it come to OLY lifts - as long as the athlete is getting enough technical training / reps in his/her sport.

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LMAO…jumanji, you’re right…the minute I could dunk, it was no longer an issue…until then, it was an issue. LOL. Thank god I got that out of the way relatively early (sophmore year).

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I didnt read all the posts on this thread but it looked to me like no one has a clue what they are talking about. Nbutka is the only poster I saw that seemed to make sense. Its hard to tell but it looks like your jumping techinique is the problem. I have friends that can jump pretty high but as far as dunking its a different story.

First you have to see which way of jumping is the most natural for you. Kobe, Jason Richardson and some other NBA players lead with the leg opposite the ball in a two legged dunk. Baron Davis, Steve Francis and some others lead with the same leg as arm their dunking with. Anywone who looks like this during a dunk jumped leading with the same leg as dunking hand. Not that they cant dunk the other way but if they have the option they will usually choose the type they are used to.

I find that players with smaller hands prefer to jump leading with the same leg as dunking hand because momentum holds the ball without you having to palm it, (similar to putting a piece of paper on the palm of your hand and waving it around, it wont fall). The people who jump like Kobe, Jason Richardson and Desmond Mason, tend to have bigger hands and dont have to worry about the ball.

The drawback is, if you jump the way Steve Francis and Co. does, you need to get higher to make up for the fact that you are reaching across your body to dunk. Once you are familiar with one way it is hard to switch back, just doesnt feel right…

My advice to you would be to lift before playing basketball at least once a week. You dont need to go crazy with this leg and that leg and box jumps and stiff-legged cock lifts and bosu stability jumps, just do some heavy hip extension and knee flexion, you will be dunking easily in no time. Lastly, I dont know why squats are so talked about with jumping. If you break down someone jumping to dunk, block a shot, etc, it is almost identical to a deadlift, mostly hip extension, squatting probably wont hurt, but the days I was taking alleys off the glass and flushing it like nothing was the day AFTER I deadlifted.

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Steve Francis, a same lead leg/dunking arm type.

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Steve Francis

http://photostore.nba.com/perl/get_image?size=480_art&provider_id=202&ptp_photo_id=83608

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nbutka,

I think part of the reason why olympic lifters are so explosive is that they are doing the full lifts correctly. I know people that power clean or hang clean their ass off but haven’t really seen any gains in vertical or explosiveness. I agree that the olympic lifts can be great if done properly, mostly because of the power absorbtion when done properly. Think about the catch position of a full snatch or clean, it’s essentially a loaded depth drop. I have nothing against the oly lifts, but I do think there are slightly easier ways to do things.

By the way, the clean definitly is more strength-speed than speed-strength. I think it definitly has a lot of correlation to the straight up vertical leap but a little less correlation to a running jump.

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Jumanji, mind sharing with us what you did to get up to 38’'? not specifics but at least exercises you focused on?

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[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
I didnt read all the posts on this thread but it looked to me like no one has a clue what they are talking about. Nbutka is the only poster I saw that seemed to make sense. Its hard to tell but it looks like your jumping techinique is the problem. I have friends that can jump pretty high but as far as dunking its a different story.

First you have to see which way of jumping is the most natural for you. Kobe, Jason Richardson and some other NBA players lead with the leg opposite the ball in a two legged dunk. Baron Davis, Steve Francis and some others lead with the same leg as arm their dunking with. Anywone who looks like this during a dunk jumped leading with the same leg as dunking hand. Not that they cant dunk the other way but if they have the option they will usually choose the type they are used to.

I find that players with smaller hands prefer to jump leading with the same leg as dunking hand because momentum holds the ball without you having to palm it, (similar to putting a piece of paper on the palm of your hand and waving it around, it wont fall). The people who jump like Kobe, Jason Richardson and Desmond Mason, tend to have bigger hands and dont have to worry about the ball.

The drawback is, if you jump the way Steve Francis and Co. does, you need to get higher to make up for the fact that you are reaching across your body to dunk. Once you are familiar with one way it is hard to switch back, just doesnt feel right…

My advice to you would be to lift before playing basketball at least once a week. You dont need to go crazy with this leg and that leg and box jumps and stiff-legged cock lifts and bosu stability jumps, just do some heavy hip extension and knee flexion, you will be dunking easily in no time. Lastly, I dont know why squats are so talked about with jumping. If you break down someone jumping to dunk, block a shot, etc, it is almost identical to a deadlift, mostly hip extension, squatting probably wont hurt, but the days I was taking alleys off the glass and flushing it like nothing was the day AFTER I deadlifted.
[/quote]

That was pretty funny; i love the internet.

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[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
nbutka,

I think part of the reason why olympic lifters are so explosive is that they are doing the full lifts correctly. I know people that power clean or hang clean their ass off but haven’t really seen any gains in vertical or explosiveness. I agree that the olympic lifts can be great if done properly, mostly because of the power absorbtion when done properly. Think about the catch position of a full snatch or clean, it’s essentially a loaded depth drop. I have nothing against the oly lifts, but I do think there are slightly easier ways to do things.

By the way, the clean definitly is more strength-speed than speed-strength. I think it definitly has a lot of correlation to the straight up vertical leap but a little less correlation to a running jump.[/quote]

Has anyone considered that the Oly lifters you are referring to are ELITE athletes? And that you’re comparing them to the average athlete that is trying to improve explosiveness with the OLY lifts? Countries never took an average joe and trained him to become an OLY lifter. We’re talking about ELITE genetically gifted athletes to BEGIN with; what relevance does that have to the average trainee trying to improve his explosivness? Unless of course, you believe that genetics don’t count?

It’s just faulty logic; OLY athletes have superior speed, jumping ability etc., and live on OLY lifts - therefore, we conclude that OLY lifts are the main reason they are faster and can jump higher. WRONG!

Where is the critical thinking here?

90

[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
I didnt read all the posts on this thread but it looked to me like no one has a clue what they are talking about. Nbutka is the only poster I saw that seemed to make sense. Its hard to tell but it looks like your jumping techinique is the problem. I have friends that can jump pretty high but as far as dunking its a different story.

First you have to see which way of jumping is the most natural for you. Kobe, Jason Richardson and some other NBA players lead with the leg opposite the ball in a two legged dunk. Baron Davis, Steve Francis and some others lead with the same leg as arm their dunking with. Anywone who looks like this during a dunk jumped leading with the same leg as dunking hand. Not that they cant dunk the other way but if they have the option they will usually choose the type they are used to.

I find that players with smaller hands prefer to jump leading with the same leg as dunking hand because momentum holds the ball without you having to palm it, (similar to putting a piece of paper on the palm of your hand and waving it around, it wont fall). The people who jump like Kobe, Jason Richardson and Desmond Mason, tend to have bigger hands and dont have to worry about the ball.

The drawback is, if you jump the way Steve Francis and Co. does, you need to get higher to make up for the fact that you are reaching across your body to dunk. Once you are familiar with one way it is hard to switch back, just doesnt feel right…

My advice to you would be to lift before playing basketball at least once a week. You dont need to go crazy with this leg and that leg and box jumps and stiff-legged cock lifts and bosu stability jumps, just do some heavy hip extension and knee flexion, you will be dunking easily in no time. Lastly, I dont know why squats are so talked about with jumping. If you break down someone jumping to dunk, block a shot, etc, it is almost identical to a deadlift, mostly hip extension, squatting probably wont hurt, but the days I was taking alleys off the glass and flushing it like nothing was the day AFTER I deadlifted.
[/quote]

I think your post makes some sense about the lead leg jumping. I personally am right handed and the first step of the 1-2 approach I use for the two footed jump is my right foot so I jump with the same hand and same foot approach. I have tried jumping off the opposite foot (being the lead foot) approach but I find that I jump too slowly off that approach.

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[quote]you just said your vert was measured with a jab step? this strongly aids your vertical measurements on a vertec. those of you who measured your vertical in this fashion should know that, because there are several athletes that get measured in the strict way that i do them, that dont have that advantage. they are supposed to be done the way i have my athletes do them

How is the above relevant to the context of my post? There is more than one way to measure vert period. So you do it a different way; until all the athletes in the world are tested YOUR way, comparisons are meaningless. What IS meaningful, is comparing like to like. And furthermore, the jab step exactly mimics most jumping motion in basketball - so the measurement is RELEVANT. OF COURSE the vert will be lower if the person is absolutely stationary with a slight dip - other than your reiterating the OBVIOUS…WHAT IS THE POINT!!! respectfully of course…[/quote]

im not trying to bash you…my post is 100% relevant because i’m trying to tell you not all 36" verticals are the same. a jab step gives you a big advantage

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how do you think they get such power to weight ratios? every time you perform one of these classical lifts you are indeed jumping in order to get the weight up. as artie dreschler points out, olympic lifting is the sport that should be called powerlifting becase it measures power while powerlifting should just be called weightlifting.

your arguing for the sake of arguing here, all i was saying is that olympic lifts are NOT just strength related…one of the above posters said that cleans were mostly a strength movement which is laughable

lol…continue what, try to pay attention to the actual argument

yes and alot of explosive athletes include pulls or full lifts into their programs and it doesnt hinder their technique in whatever their sport is…sprinters, throwers, jumpers, etc…they throw these lifts in because it helps explosiveness and strength…

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[quote]Has anyone considered that the Oly lifters you are referring to are ELITE athletes? And that you’re comparing them to the average athlete that is trying to improve explosiveness with the OLY lifts?Countries never took an average joe and trained him to become an OLY lifter. We’re talking about ELITE genetically gifted athletes to BEGIN with; what relevance does that have to the average trainee trying to improve his explosivness? Unless of course, you believe that genetics don’t count?

It’s just faulty logic; OLY athletes have superior speed, jumping ability etc., and live on OLY lifts - therefore, we conclude that OLY lifts are the main reason they are faster and can jump higher. WRONG!

Where is the critical thinking here?[/quote]

not that it really matters but the study was done with other olympic level athletes…other studies that have been done show that olympic lifters typically have poor long jumping ability. whats this show? you get good at what you train for.

all i was trying to show is that olympic lifts aren’t all-strength lifts as another poster indicated. my post much earlier in this thread said that a good clean is a good indicator of a good vetical jump, which in my experience is very true. athletes that i train with good cleans, do very well on the vertec. not all athletes with good vert neccesarily have a good clean/snatch though because of course technique is a limiting factor…

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[quote]nbutka wrote:
Has anyone considered that the Oly lifters you are referring to are ELITE athletes? And that you’re comparing them to the average athlete that is trying to improve explosiveness with the OLY lifts?Countries never took an average joe and trained him to become an OLY lifter. We’re talking about ELITE genetically gifted athletes to BEGIN with; what relevance does that have to the average trainee trying to improve his explosivness? Unless of course, you believe that genetics don’t count?

It’s just faulty logic; OLY athletes have superior speed, jumping ability etc., and live on OLY lifts - therefore, we conclude that OLY lifts are the main reason they are faster and can jump higher. WRONG!

Where is the critical thinking here?

not that it really matters but the study was done with other olympic level athletes…other studies that have been done show that olympic lifters typically have poor long jumping ability. whats this show? you get good at what you train for.

all i was trying to show is that olympic lifts aren’t all-strength lifts as another poster indicated. my post much earlier in this thread said that a good clean is a good indicator of a good vetical jump, which in my experience is very true. athletes that i train with good cleans, do very well on the vertec. not all athletes with good vert neccesarily have a good clean/snatch though because of course technique is a limiting factor…

[/quote]

Point taken…and agreed.

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[quote]nbutka wrote:
Has anyone considered that the Oly lifters you are referring to are ELITE athletes? And that you’re comparing them to the average athlete that is trying to improve explosiveness with the OLY lifts?Countries never took an average joe and trained him to become an OLY lifter. We’re talking about ELITE genetically gifted athletes to BEGIN with; what relevance does that have to the average trainee trying to improve his explosivness? Unless of course, you believe that genetics don’t count?

It’s just faulty logic; OLY athletes have superior speed, jumping ability etc., and live on OLY lifts - therefore, we conclude that OLY lifts are the main reason they are faster and can jump higher. WRONG!

Where is the critical thinking here?

not that it really matters but the study was done with other olympic level athletes…other studies that have been done show that olympic lifters typically have poor long jumping ability. whats this show? you get good at what you train for.

all i was trying to show is that olympic lifts aren’t all-strength lifts as another poster indicated. my post much earlier in this thread said that a good clean is a good indicator of a good vetical jump, which in my experience is very true. athletes that i train with good cleans, do very well on the vertec. not all athletes with good vert neccesarily have a good clean/snatch though because of course technique is a limiting factor…

[/quote]

Always thinking…too bad I didn’t know then what I know now; I built a 38" vert (I don’t care how you meausre it - I could 360, touch the top of the square, etc. at 6’1") with shit technique squatting and some plyometrics - mostly box jumps and depth jumps…no deads, no cleans, no snatches, no box squats, no glute ham raies, etc. and looking back, I was severely overtrained…and I could run a 4.4 40. If I could only travel back in time… :slight_smile:

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that is still impressive

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I tried dunking it on a normal goal today just bringing it up. I think I can get around 10" over the rim now (AFTER A STATIC HIPS FLEXOR STRETCH). I was getting 6-8" (basically my whole hand) over the rim consistently but then with the ball off a two footed approach, I was only 3" above the rim, I think I need more upper body strength. I did some pull ups yesterday, I think I need to do more back work and dumbbells swings, those kind of exercises. Any advice?

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[quote]Airness wrote:
I tried dunking it on a normal goal today just bringing it up. I think I can get around 10" over the rim now (AFTER A STATIC HIPS FLEXOR STRETCH). I was getting 6-8" (basically my whole hand) over the rim consistently but then with the ball off a two footed approach, I was only 3" above the rim, I think I need more upper body strength. I did some pull ups yesterday, I think I need to do more back work and dumbbells swings, those kind of exercises. Any advice?[/quote]

front raises with db’s or plates should help. for about 2 months one summer i did plyos with a medicine ball…squat jumps and overhead throws (keg tosses) and had good results…these aren’t really exercises to base an upper body workout around though…like anybody else will tell you on this site start with the basics, bench, row, pullups, overhead press and if you are just starting to lift you’ll probably see good gains in strength

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i believe you said grip was an issue…

do some work with thicker barbells…

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Bob and Airness~

If you are looking to start lifting weights, I would do nothing but stick with the basics. While I have no idea how you are built, my vertical came from me being 5’7" and 103 as a HS freshman, and 5’10" and 165 pounds as a senior… I did most of that from lifting, as my dad graduated at 5’10" 130 and my mom is also sleight.

If you look at the writing of Kelly Baggett, you will see he did much the same. The majority of my muscle is fast twitch becuase I literally had none to start with… I was eating disorder looking… (still ran a 58 second 400 in 8th grade though, but my 100m was crap!)

I was always a 2 foot jumper. Why? Because I have just sligthly better than average reactivity naturally, and all of my spring came from the fact that as a senior I squatted in the mid 400’s using a BFS beeper to test for parallel. (We didn’t do BFS!!)

My HS coach was way ahead of his time. We did GPP, strongman, and the basics: Squats, Cleans, Step-Ups, Lunges, Calf Raises, Push-Jerks, Bench, Incline, Bradford Presses, Rows, Chins, and Dips. We also did a ton of abdominal work… there was no such thing as ‘core’ work in the late 80’s. There were also no metros… hmmm.

We dynamically warmed up each day, did the daily SAQ work, did plyos, and then lifted. We did an upper lower split with M/T being Power Clean / Push-Jerk Days, and then R/F being a Max type day… much like the westside of today with a Dynamic and Max day.

Wednesdays were extra SAQ and strongman… then we’d head for the gym to B-Ball… it was awful B-Ball. Go carry 95 pound barbells in each hand for distance, and then try to shoot…ugh.

The other thing that made me was that I didn’t own any video games, my dad lifted his whole life, and we had weights in the basement in 9th and 10th grade.

I played Football, Soccer, Tennis, and Track (Florida has soccer as winter). Each night after practice, I would ride my bike home, eat everyhting I could find, and then head out to the pick-up basketball courts until the lights went out at 11pm…

Every day basically.

At the 1993 Gus Macker in Belding a guest speaker was talking about holding the Guinness Record for vertical back in the day at 42"… right after he was done talking I jumped that high on a Vertec…no step. I was up to about 178 pounds and squatted 405 X 12. I attribute the increase from 36" in HS to less work, more strength, and playing V-Ball a couple nights a week.

BTW, my vertical was amazing…but I sucked at B-Ball. I was a good V-Ball player, but I learned that short guys wear out, and tall guys stay tall. I am short at 6’. But, the guy who said that a 42" vertical is rare is absolutley right. When I was at UF, a basketball player finally said to me: why do you swat shots out of bounds, why not just catch the damn ball? So I started doing that instead of pinning it on the board, etc. The timing just came from being an opposite in V-Ball. I was great at D, but suck overall.

So Airness, don’t get fancy. Get strong. If you cannot get a great coach, don’t do O-Lifts. If you are pretty reactive already, most of the strength will carry over. Yes, there are better ways. But, the basics are always at the heart of those methods… IMO.

Good luck.

JR

PS~ I also had your problem in that since I didn’t ever practice duniing, my dunk jumping height was lower than when I just jumped. When I was in shape I could throw it down easily with both hands easily, but if not it is always with one or as put backs or ‘oops’. Anyway, I agree with the guy who said it may be your jumping form… your jumping form with the ball. At 10" over the rim, you should be able to cram it down with one hand easily… maybe start with a vball, smooth it out, and then progress to a girl’s ball, and then a men’s ball… I speak of the progression from experience. I cannot palm a ball unless it is new and sticky… huge palms… no fingers… much better at punching than piano!!!

Goos luck kid.