Good point Jtrinsey. I was definately squirmin when I was tested, maybe that’s why I felt it was a little flawed [which also means my vert is over 35". AWWWWWWYEEEEAAAHHHH.]
Bodygaurd, I don’t play much anymore nor do I train for my vert. Never have actually. I didn’t start playin 'til I was 13-14 and got my first dunk when I was 17 at about 5’7 and maybe 130lbs [I’m 5’10 abut 175 now.]I had a few oppurtunities to go juco [i dropped outta highschool when I was a soph] and a minor league op a lil over a year ago but through my own bad decisions I fucked 'em away. I don’t have the same passion I did, but every now and again I’ll get that fire. And yes, I know I can play. People think I’m just some kind of “freakshow” catchin lobs and gettin reverses on the break, but when it’s time to get down the folks I’m hoopin against know too.
I guess the obssession of being able to jump high and bang it down is just somethign that can’t really be explained. Nobody can really dunk here in games, except for those who are over 6’5" (which is rare). I guess I want to dunk because it’s something that I feel is a great accomplishment. I know I can play, or else I would just worry about dunking it and resting from basketball until I can just dunk it down every posession. That’s boring lol.
I wanted to point out the the participants in this years dunk contest have been announced:Josh Smith, Nate Robinson, Hakin Warrick and Andre Igoudala. I would really like to see J.R. Smith in it as I feel he should have won last year [he went behind his back in the air and got a 45???]. Any predictions? I think this is a pretty good field and I’m interested to see what’s done this year. I predict Warrick puts both elbows in the rim at some point.
nate robinson is definately the fan favorite, if he does anything with the slightest bit of flair, he’ll take it.
I’d like to see what Robinson can do in this format 'cause he and I are roughly the same size. I’ve heard [no physical proof] that he can get some pretty impressive shit down, like a lob to himself through the legs type shit. We’ll see.
if robinson can get between the legs he should win…i know everybody looks forward to the dunk contest, including myself, but another year with no vince, kobe, lebron, jason richardson or baron davis is kinda disappointing, especially when lebron makes comments undermining the contest and its participants Iguodala, Robinson join slam-dunk field; LeBron out
as a side note, all the talk about how good peoples vert’s are on this thread gives me extra incentive to work at it…i wish i knew what i know now 6 years ago
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Good point Jtrinsey. I was definately squirmin when I was tested, maybe that’s why I felt it was a little flawed [which also means my vert is over 35". AWWWWWWYEEEEAAAHHHH.]
Bodygaurd, I don’t play much anymore nor do I train for my vert. Never have actually. I didn’t start playin 'til I was 13-14 and got my first dunk when I was 17 at about 5’7 and maybe 130lbs [I’m 5’10 abut 175 now.]I had a few oppurtunities to go juco [i dropped outta highschool when I was a soph] and a minor league op a lil over a year ago but through my own bad decisions I fucked 'em away. I don’t have the same passion I did, but every now and again I’ll get that fire. And yes, I know I can play. People think I’m just some kind of “freakshow” catchin lobs and gettin reverses on the break, but when it’s time to get down the folks I’m hoopin against know too.[/quote]
OK; fair enough…let me say first, I’m not putting YOU down - just making a point.
I assure you, and this is indisputable, that at 5’10" you are not getting any opportunities to dunk in a real game against real competition except the occassional fast break. You WILL NOT be getting ooops against legitimate competition. And, how many times during a legit game, with legit comp, do you get to sail in on a fast break uncontested?
Dunking is over rated. Period. True, when I was coming up, I was obsessed with it too - before I actually could do it. But I never “worked on” dunking…I worked on my game. Yea yea, in the playground, or against lesser cats, I was throwing shit down on ooops, breaks and even over people…but when the real ballers stepped on the floor, that shit ceased from the guard position (i was a PG 6’1").
I crossed over, spun and did various other shit in real games to make guys look stupid, but never ever did I break into the lane, in traffic, and throw down against legit comp - and I had a 38" vert. With the contact at the pro and semi pro level, it aint happening with any regularity. And I can’t even remember an uncontested breakaway…not saying it didn’t happen - I did dunk in games…but I scored a hell lot more than I dunked 
My point isnt’ against you Flash…I’m just making a point about this subject in general. And I read LeBron’s comments below - and I agree with him 100%.
I’ve just seen way too many guys with hops that weren’t anywhere as good as they thought they were - in fact, in my opinion, in many cases their hops actually hurt their game.
And this thread, generally, just reinforces what I say this past year when I got a good chance to watch alot of high school ball - all these young cats are obsessed with crossing over and doing ESPN highlight shit and they don’t even possess basic sound shooting mechanics and skills. It’s hilarious - and sad. They want to dunk, but can’t shoot from 20 feet…want to cross over on someone, but can’t shoot a foul shot.
As entertaining as the NBA is, hops aint’ getting you to the league…or any other league where you get paid. ESPN would lead one to believe that games are filled with dunks, cross overs and fancy passes. It’s actually MUCH less exciting. Winning basketball is filled with lock down defense, passing, rebounding (position not jumping ability) and good shooting. The Pistons and their dominance are no accident.
Anyway, off my soap box You got crazy hops Flash…I used to have them but I’m a 275lb powerlifter now. Even still, if I got down to 242 I do believe I could manage a dunk - nothing crazy…but I could still manage it :)…at age 41.
Good luck to you bro - and if you’re not too old - don’t give up…you can still go juco and get an education - never know what happens from there.
I saw some video of Robinson dunking. Last year during the tournament they had an espn feature on Washington and they showed the guys messing around with a mini dunk contest at practice. Robinson threw down a pretty windmill and a 180 tuck (think Steve Francis about 5 years ago in the dunk contest that VC won). He definitly has potential to win.
first off, as a college basketball player i want to say I’ve always been impressed by volleyballers vertical leaps…but thats all you all do! J/K!
oh, and bodyguard, isn’t it sad how what you described seems to be half the players being drafted in the NBA? case in point Darius miles. though I think legit players still work on their vertical, but for a different reason than to dunk. As a 6-1 guard, your vertical no doubt helped you get off your shot against taller players. I’ve also seen alot of undersized post players who at 6-6 could have used a few more inches on their vert to avoid getting their shot thrown.
[quote]matsm21 wrote:
first off, as a college basketball player i want to say I’ve always been impressed by volleyballers vertical leaps…but thats all you all do! J/K!
oh, and bodyguard, isn’t it sad how what you described seems to be half the players being drafted in the NBA? case in point Darius miles. though I think legit players still work on their vertical, but for a different reason than to dunk. As a 6-1 guard, your vertical no doubt helped you get off your shot against taller players. I’ve also seen alot of undersized post players who at 6-6 could have used a few more inches on their vert to avoid getting their shot thrown.[/quote]
To be perfectly honest with you, I could get off my shot any time I wanted; but I did not attribute that so much to my vert as I always believed I did not elevate on a jump shot like I did going to the rim. I believe getting your shot off has much more to do with understanding how to create space and having good mechanics - if you have good mechanics, to me, that includes fluidly being able to get your shot off - or as some would say, a quick release. It’s frustrating b/c I’m trying to teach the concept of creating space to my youngest son who plays now. In legit comp, no one is really just facing up and shooting over a guy - you’re getting him on his heels, making him move, etc., and then when you get daylight - bam, shot off. And although I agree with you about the current younger crop in the NBA, I don’t know if I agree with a post player needing more vert to get his shot off. I think it goes back to my earlier point - creating space - whether that be by foot work, including pivots, and pump fakes, etc. Kevin McHale, one of the best technicians in the paint, couldn’t leap over a phone book - and you’d be hard pressed to name a current player who was a better post player.
It’s so deceiving - the NBA; they are arguably the most athletic athletes - running, jumping, etc. But the game at that level is alot of bump and grind - positioning. You see lots of guys with athleticism that can’t make it in the league because they don’t understand spacing, creating space, having position and playing defense. Look at (his name escapes me) the Pistons 2 guard…not the most athletic guy in the world, but he understands how to get open and how to create space to get off his shot - he will never win a dunk contest - he will not elevate above you - but he is very successful. Take the other extreme - Kobe (his dad Joe was on my pro summer league team) - Kobe has athleticism off the chart - but he uses that athleticism to mostly create space - he doesn’t merely come down in your face and elevate over you - he freezes you, moves you, etc., and then elevates.
I don’t mean to underestimate athleticism in the NBA - to get there and stay there, you need it in spades for sure - but VERT is secondary to skills - VERT might be a good measurement of your overall athleticism - but if you can’t play - its worthless - and no one has made a living winning dunk contests
Just read your post again and have to add; I think my quickness was more responsible for being able to get off my shot against taller guards by the way…quickness allows you to create space - once you create space - you can shoot.
I’m just sitting here smiling thinking back on this dunking discussion - heck man, if I got a step in the lane in playground ball - with all those wannabe playground ballers who thought they could play anywhere - you were getting dunked on. But fill up the court with legit players which includes guys in the lane 6’8" and up and I don’t care what your vert is - there won’t be many days you get to dunk on someone - floater? yes…pull up in the lane? yes…lay up? possibly. dunk? maybe once. more than once same game? end up on your ass! LOL. But you play, you know whats up.
yea I totally agree with you on the part of creating space. It was only when I learned the nuances of creating space that I took my game to the next level. till then i have to admit I had used my athleticism as a crutch. I play in pro level summer leagues, and the dunks you see are because of the player creating enough room first, then jumping ability second.(ex. Troy Murphy) vert probably just provides a larger margin for error.
Bodyguard, I completely get what you’re saying. If I get a lob against “players” it’ll be if I caught the defense sleeping. In my exprience, NO ONE likes getting dunked on. I’ve been “accidently” taken out of the air on a few occasions. If a lane opens and no one rotates over then I’m blowin by my man with every intention of flushing, but it ain’t always that simple. Ya’ll be good.
Bodyguard~
While what you are saying is true, the veritcal does indicate a level of athleticism. The space you created by getting guys on their heels was because you had the athleticism and explosiveness (displayed by vertical) to go by guys…
so saying that learning to create space is the most important may be true, but if you were slow and couldn’t explode, you could never do so… since you had a 38" vertical, the most important thing for you to work on was shooting and the subtleties…
I have the same talk with a former professional soccer player friend of mine… he was very quick, and we discuss training of young athletes constantly.
My point is the same to him: for every great jumper you know who didn’t quite have the skill to play at the college level, I can name 100 slow assed trailer park kids who can shoot the lights out and hit you in the middle of your chest with a pass while dribbling through the trees, but are too slow, short, and cannot jump high enough to play at the next level.
So no, a high vert doesn’t matter… but explosiveness does…
Heck the biggest problem so many kids have is that they aren’t quick enough to defend an explosive athlete.
When I coached in HS we would have kids who would do all the And-1 Bullnonsense, but would have to pass the ball every time they got it when their old, washed up coach guarded them… why? Because I was one of two white boys at UF in the early 90’s with a 38"+ vertical… both football players… (but I also played vball for the club team in the spring…)
So the kids got shut down by a guy who never even played the game… no explosion… no repsect…
So while you are right about the subtleties, it comes from a very skewed perspective… you were explosive already… Get a kid who has a 28" vertical in front of you (when in shape) and see how well he seperates and creates space while you have him locked down… I bet not all that well… you do not respect his ability to burst… plus you probably had well trained eyes…
High vertical correlates with explosiveness… that is why it is important…
JR
Jumanji,
Great points and that is what I was kind of saying earlier. Vertical leap itself doesn’t really matter, but what it is a benchmark of (explosive strength) is what sports are all about. This is why vertical leap is regarded as the best indicator that NFL scouts look for, yet football players hardly ever jump.
Most coaches don’t care how high you jump,they do care how FAST you get up though, and I guess that’s the most important factor in sports which rely on the vertical jump.
[quote]Jumanji wrote:
Bodyguard~
While what you are saying is true, the veritcal does indicate a level of athleticism. The space you created by getting guys on their heels was because you had the athleticism and explosiveness (displayed by vertical) to go by guys…
so saying that learning to create space is the most important may be true, but if you were slow and couldn’t explode, you could never do so… since you had a 38" vertical, the most important thing for you to work on was shooting and the subtleties…
I have the same talk with a former professional soccer player friend of mine… he was very quick, and we discuss training of young athletes constantly.
My point is the same to him: for every great jumper you know who didn’t quite have the skill to play at the college level, I can name 100 slow assed trailer park kids who can shoot the lights out and hit you in the middle of your chest with a pass while dribbling through the trees, but are too slow, short, and cannot jump high enough to play at the next level.
So no, a high vert doesn’t matter… but explosiveness does…
Heck the biggest problem so many kids have is that they aren’t quick enough to defend an explosive athlete.
When I coached in HS we would have kids who would do all the And-1 Bullnonsense, but would have to pass the ball every time they got it when their old, washed up coach guarded them… why? Because I was one of two white boys at UF in the early 90’s with a 38"+ vertical… both football players… (but I also played vball for the club team in the spring…)
So the kids got shut down by a guy who never even played the game… no explosion… no repsect…
So while you are right about the subtleties, it comes from a very skewed perspective… you were explosive already… Get a kid who has a 28" vertical in front of you (when in shape) and see how well he seperates and creates space while you have him locked down… I bet not all that well… you do not respect his ability to burst… plus you probably had well trained eyes…
High vertical correlates with explosiveness… that is why it is important…
JR[/quote]
I don’t think there is any disagreement there; in fact, my post did say vert is a measure of athleticism - although I didn’t say explosiveness exactly, you are correct sir. And yes, I’ve seen countless guys that were fundamentally sound not make it to the next level b/c they were not athletic enough - this is true. But there are also plenty of athletic guys not making it b/c they just can’t play.
And by the way, I’m a white boy too And another thing - when I mentioned the LA summer pro league, the guy with the highest vert was a white guy…saw him jump over a kid’s head al la vince carter in a game. the guy wasn’t a 7 footer but it was just as damn ugly
BGuard~
Kool, and you are right, dunking is meaningless… unless you cannot do it… LOL
Airness~
You are precisely correct. I am actually a slower jumper since I have a longer gather phase… my jump is more strength dominant as opposed to reactive based… therefore I always gather with two feet when going for maximum height.
Therefore, I married a quick jumper, hehe, who could grab the rim in HS at 5’10" and played vball in college… maybe our kids will get the best from both of us…I am explosive, she is reactive…so we’ll see…
JR
***You’re not entirely correct; In 91, I went the free agent try-out route for the LA summer pro league. They tested vert. The athletic guys that could jump out of the gym all tested around 30-32; 6 or so of us tested higher. I was 38 and two or 3 were 40 with one guy going 42 or so.
There is more than one way to test a vert and the most common, in my opinion, is allowing for a jab step as this, in my opinion, most mimicks what occurs in a game. Rarely do you jump in a game (any game/sport) from a purely static two foot stance. So, while you are correct that 32 or so is well ahead of the bell curve - i don’t think all these guys are full of it…not everyone here is claiming a 30 vert.*****
you just said your vert was measured with a jab step? this strongly aids your vertical measurements on a vertec. those of you who measured your vertical in this fashion should know that, because there are several athletes that get measured in the strict way that i do them, that dont have that advantage. they are supposed to be done the way i have my athletes do them
******well a clean has more to do with strength than speed. A vertical jump is quite a bit faster. But then again the heavier you are, the slower you will jump so when your 300lbs the clean may help there *******
umm, absolutely not? speed and strength are required for the clean.
Powersnatch with minimal leg bend to catch has more correlation. But I don’t think any of these lifts develop VJ, they are just barometers IMO.
And they would most likely ingrain bad jumping motor patterns, too much muscling in the jump etc instead of being relaxed and reflexive**
wow your so off on that…this is my are of expertise so excuse me for coming on a little strong but thats so false its insane. snatches do require more force than the clean, yes, but neither lift develops poor motor patterns…there have been studies done which have shown that elite olympic lifters had better vertical measurements than individuals who actually trained jumping events in the olympics… there have been blind studies done with groups who trained in the olympic lifts and those who just strength trained and the individuals who performed the olympic lifts all had better finishing mile times, 40 yd dash times, etc than those who just strength trained. thats how much correlation these lifts actually have with jumping/speed/explosivity. thats truly the most miscoonceived idea i have ever heard about olympic lifting…go try an overhead squat right now with 100 kilos and tell me it doesnt require STRONG coordination and good motor patterns
its hillarious you prescribe two things that mimic olympic lifts to develop vertical…
[quote]nbutka wrote:
***You’re not entirely correct; In 91, I went the free agent try-out route for the LA summer pro league. They tested vert. The athletic guys that could jump out of the gym all tested around 30-32; 6 or so of us tested higher. I was 38 and two or 3 were 40 with one guy going 42 or so.
There is more than one way to test a vert and the most common, in my opinion, is allowing for a jab step as this, in my opinion, most mimicks what occurs in a game. Rarely do you jump in a game (any game/sport) from a purely static two foot stance. So, while you are correct that 32 or so is well ahead of the bell curve - i don’t think all these guys are full of it…not everyone here is claiming a 30 vert.*****
you just said your vert was measured with a jab step? this strongly aids your vertical measurements on a vertec. those of you who measured your vertical in this fashion should know that, because there are several athletes that get measured in the strict way that i do them, that dont have that advantage. they are supposed to be done the way i have my athletes do them
[/quote]
How is the above relevant to the context of my post? There is more than one way to measure vert period. So you do it a different way; until all the athletes in the world are tested YOUR way, comparisons are meaningless. What IS meaningful, is comparing like to like. And furthermore, the jab step exactly mimics most jumping motion in basketball - so the measurement is RELEVANT. OF COURSE the vert will be lower if the person is absolutely stationary with a slight dip - other than your reiterating the OBVIOUS…WHAT IS THE POINT!!! respectfully of course…