Jumping & Dunking

[quote]Jumanji wrote:
Bob and Airness~

If you are looking to start lifting weights, I would do nothing but stick with the basics. While I have no idea how you are built, my vertical came from me being 5’7" and 103 as a HS freshman, and 5’10" and 165 pounds as a senior… I did most of that from lifting, as my dad graduated at 5’10" 130 and my mom is also sleight.

If you look at the writing of Kelly Baggett, you will see he did much the same. The majority of my muscle is fast twitch becuase I literally had none to start with… I was eating disorder looking… (still ran a 58 second 400 in 8th grade though, but my 100m was crap!)

I was always a 2 foot jumper. Why? Because I have just sligthly better than average reactivity naturally, and all of my spring came from the fact that as a senior I squatted in the mid 400’s using a BFS beeper to test for parallel. (We didn’t do BFS!!)

My HS coach was way ahead of his time. We did GPP, strongman, and the basics: Squats, Cleans, Step-Ups, Lunges, Calf Raises, Push-Jerks, Bench, Incline, Bradford Presses, Rows, Chins, and Dips. We also did a ton of abdominal work… there was no such thing as ‘core’ work in the late 80’s. There were also no metros… hmmm.

We dynamically warmed up each day, did the daily SAQ work, did plyos, and then lifted. We did an upper lower split with M/T being Power Clean / Push-Jerk Days, and then R/F being a Max type day… much like the westside of today with a Dynamic and Max day.

Wednesdays were extra SAQ and strongman… then we’d head for the gym to B-Ball… it was awful B-Ball. Go carry 95 pound barbells in each hand for distance, and then try to shoot…ugh.

The other thing that made me was that I didn’t own any video games, my dad lifted his whole life, and we had weights in the basement in 9th and 10th grade.

I played Football, Soccer, Tennis, and Track (Florida has soccer as winter). Each night after practice, I would ride my bike home, eat everyhting I could find, and then head out to the pick-up basketball courts until the lights went out at 11pm…

Every day basically.

At the 1993 Gus Macker in Belding a guest speaker was talking about holding the Guinness Record for vertical back in the day at 42"… right after he was done talking I jumped that high on a Vertec…no step. I was up to about 178 pounds and squatted 405 X 12. I attribute the increase from 36" in HS to less work, more strength, and playing V-Ball a couple nights a week.

BTW, my vertical was amazing…but I sucked at B-Ball. I was a good V-Ball player, but I learned that short guys wear out, and tall guys stay tall. I am short at 6’. But, the guy who said that a 42" vertical is rare is absolutley right. When I was at UF, a basketball player finally said to me: why do you swat shots out of bounds, why not just catch the damn ball? So I started doing that instead of pinning it on the board, etc. The timing just came from being an opposite in V-Ball. I was great at D, but suck overall.

So Airness, don’t get fancy. Get strong. If you cannot get a great coach, don’t do O-Lifts. If you are pretty reactive already, most of the strength will carry over. Yes, there are better ways. But, the basics are always at the heart of those methods… IMO.

Good luck.

JR

PS~ I also had your problem in that since I didn’t ever practice duniing, my dunk jumping height was lower than when I just jumped. When I was in shape I could throw it down easily with both hands easily, but if not it is always with one or as put backs or ‘oops’. Anyway, I agree with the guy who said it may be your jumping form… your jumping form with the ball. At 10" over the rim, you should be able to cram it down with one hand easily… maybe start with a vball, smooth it out, and then progress to a girl’s ball, and then a men’s ball… I speak of the progression from experience. I cannot palm a ball unless it is new and sticky… huge palms… no fingers… much better at punching than piano!!!

Goos luck kid.[/quote]

Wow this is a very informative post! I think I’m a slow jumper, I can’t approach the rim at a very fast speed and then jump off two feet. So really, I can’t make good use of my momentum.

(So that’s why I usually don’t jump with two feet in a game, I get up too slowly, I’ll get blocked lol but recently, I’ve just decided to not jump much at all and actually bump into my opponents and use my shoulder to actually create some space. It works well…)

So basically, I should stick to a full body routine 3-4 times like this with variations?

Deadlift
Squat
Row
Pull-up
Bench press
Dips
Overhead press

Cleans(?) I have learned the clean and press but I’m still not sure about the difference between Power Cleans and just normal cleans, but if I’m right, is it the bending of the knees and the squatting? In a Power Clean, there’s minimal squatting?

I work out at home, my weights aren’t really heavy, I only have 130lbs at home (barbell and dumbbells…). I used to have access to the gym, but this is bad luck lol, the week after I went to that gym, they decided they were going to close it down and renovate it for a few months… The big name gyms here in Hong Kong are rip offs…

I guess I’ll have to make do with my 130lbs for now and maybe get someone to push the weight down to add some force onto it for the time being.

Some people say when they jump up with the ball off two feet, they shrug their shoulders (since they can’t use the arm swing) to bring the ball up, they say this gets them a good 2-3 inches higher. I guess it’s just a matter of technique work, heck, I jump slow without the ball anyway but then I jump even slower WITH the ball lol. I think I’m a strength jumper even though I don’t squat much (215lbs Full Squat, I think… I don’t like to do a parallel squat…)

Sorry for grave digging my old thread, I’d just like to inform people of my progress.

As of 28/01/06, I was 5’10" (178cm) and 165lbs(75kg). Jumped 30" (Around 75cm) standing. But then I now found out lol, there’s a mistake and it was around 28.5" not 30".

Now, 05/04/06, I am still 5’10" (178cm), 173lbs (79kg). Now, I truly jump 30.5" standing (around 76.25cm). I can nip the rim standing now. I can finally dunk the ball from a two footed run up. I can windmill grab the rim, but cannot hang onto it. I can windmill dunk the tennis ball (just barely). I can also grab the rim with two hands. I will be getting pictures and possibly videos soon. Stay tuned. :slight_smile:

I’ve also been taking creatine and been working out pretty regularly.

[quote]Airness wrote:
Most coaches don’t care how high you jump,they do care how FAST you get up though, and I guess that’s the most important factor in sports which rely on the vertical jump. [/quote]

How “fast” you jump and how high you jump are the same thing. Jump height is determined by the rate of upward acceleration you produce relative to your bodymass.

this is my younger brother who is no taller than 5’3 or 5’4… not ridiculous ups but probably in the 30s.

I was a legit vertical monster in my able-bodied days and probably could have cleared 40-45

Yeah, when you jump faster, you jump higher and crap, that’s a nice picture but it’s a bit blurry, is that a dunk?

that’s a missed dunk if i recall

[quote]Airness wrote:
Here’s a picture of me dunking a tennis ball (lol) on a 10’2" goal. Hopefully in a few weeks I will be dunking a real ball on this goal just by bringing it up off two feet. [/quote]

If you continue to jump/dunk on that cement, the only thing you’ll be dunking is a donut into your milk! YOU WILL RUIN YOUR KNEES!

[quote]belligerent wrote:
Airness wrote:
Most coaches don’t care how high you jump,they do care how FAST you get up though, and I guess that’s the most important factor in sports which rely on the vertical jump.

How “fast” you jump and how high you jump are the same thing. Jump height is determined by the rate of upward acceleration you produce relative to your bodymass.

[/quote]

I think he’s referring to how quickly you can initiate the force to get up in there air- there’s a little bit of a difference. People who are more stiff and reactive jump with much less kneee bend then people who are not like this naturally or program themselves not to by training.

[quote]nbutka wrote:
i have no idea where you guys measured your vertical but anyone claiming a true 30-32 inch vert is full of it…with that type of vert, youd be dunking no problem…32 inches is a freak of nature vert.

vert should be measured by a short dip in one place and touch to the higest marker you can hit on a the vert stand. then height and reach come into play. thats how it is measured, this running start stuff is nonsense.

i know of someone who has a 185 kilo clean (407lbs) and is very lean, who only measures 34 inches. this kid is an absolute genetic freak.

most 40 inch verticals you hear of, aren’t measured properly. i measure teen athletes often on this and most average 25-26, a few will actually hit 28-29 but those are exceptional athletes. [/quote]

I don’t think its so uncommon. I’ve seen plenty of verticals in the 30’s. Granted, most of them were on a Div I. University track team, but I did also see several in my high school. They were all with feet completely planted in place (none of that one step or shuffling start stuff), and using those VJ measuring standards with the little flags spaced every half-inch that you hit, so there’s no ambiguity as to how high the athlete reached. The testers also wouldn’t let athletes cheat on their reach measurement (you know, shortening your reach measurment to make the vertical appear higher). The highest I ever saw was 36". That guy was definitely a jumping freak. Average on the uni track team was probably 32-33". Not common, but most standout high school basketball, track, or volleyball athletes are probably above 30". So it is very possible. I also believe Airness’ claims. If he’s got a 30" vert at 5’10", then he’s just about right to be dunking, especially on a 10’2" rim. If you’ve ever been right at that boundary of barely dunking, you know how huge that last inch or two is. The difference between a 10’ and 10’2" rim is huge. He’d probably be dunking a 10’ rim much easier.

But I do agree, I generally don’t believe a VJ of 38"+, unless its a world class athlete. I also usually doubt something above 34", because I know what 34" explosiveness looks like, and I usually don’t see it.

With regards to Airness’ question about different kinds of dunks, that’s usually the case that people can dunk easier one way than another. There are two factors involved, speed of jumping and arm swing. People have different abilities in jumping speeds. Some get much higher off one foot with a run up because they are able to convert their speed more effectively into jumping. Others do much better off two feet because they are slower, power jumpers. If you are having trouble off two feet but have no problem off one, then your two-footed jumping is just slowing down to much. You can work on trying to explode faster off of two feet, and not taking as much time to gather yourself at the bottom of the jump.

Arm swing also is way its much easier to dunk on alley-oops than with the ball. You can get a double arm swing brought from way back behind your body, as opposed to a short two arm swing holding a ball that starts in front of you.

And of course, keep hitting those weights. That will make the most contribution to your vert. Solid lower body foundation of squatting and deadlifting, eventually leading up to plyometrics training. The good thing is that if you haven’t been very consistant at the weights, then you have a LOT of room for improvement.

[quote]Airness wrote:
I tried dunking it on a normal goal today just bringing it up. I think I can get around 10" over the rim now (AFTER A STATIC HIPS FLEXOR STRETCH). I was getting 6-8" (basically my whole hand) over the rim consistently but then with the ball off a two footed approach, I was only 3" above the rim, I think I need more upper body strength. I did some pull ups yesterday, I think I need to do more back work and dumbbells swings, those kind of exercises. Any advice?[/quote]

For upper body work, a big contributor to jumping ability, believe or not, is your trapezius muscles. This is one reason why Oly lifts can contribute so well to jumping, because they also hit your traps very well. Traps are crucial in driving your arms and shoulders to get that upward momentum arm swing.

[quote]belligerent wrote:
this is my younger brother who is no taller than 5’3 or 5’4… not ridiculous ups but probably in the 30s.

I was a legit vertical monster in my able-bodied days and probably could have cleared 40-45[/quote]

He maybe short, but damn he’s got way longer arms than me, and I’m quite a bit taller than him!
Looks like his head is 1.5 feet away from the rim. For me to get my hand that high on the rim, my head has to be within 12 inches of the rim…and get at least 40 inches off the ground…

life is not fair :frowning:

I think a problem of mine is that I’m squatting too low before I jump. Here are two pictures of me jumping a week ago.

This one is the knee bend I am going down to before jumping. The picture below that is what I think should be optimal knee bend.

Here are two pictures of my knee bend. I think my problem is I squat down too low before I jump.

The first one is the knee bend I’m currently squatting down to before I jump. The second one is the knee bend I’m going to try and use because it should make me go up higher and faster.


Here’s the optimal knee bend picture and apparently, I’ve posted twice above with the same picture but I can’t see anything that I’ve posted in the last 15 minutes.

[quote]Here are two pictures of my knee bend. I think my problem is I squat down too low before I jump.

The first one is the knee bend I’m currently squatting down to before I jump. The second one is the knee bend I’m going to try and use because it should make me go up higher and faster. [/quote]

The 2nd one will only make you go up higher and faster if you have the ability to take advantage of a shorter gathering/amortization phase. Practice it and see…but don’t be surprised if it never feels quite right for you. Guys with more slow twitch muscle/less reactivity will inherently use a deeper knee bend as it allows them more time to full recruit more muscle.

Just look at the knee bend of the first jump of this video:

http://www.dunkalicious.com/videos2004/corse-indoor-v2.wmv

It was pretty deep (I paused it and it seemed to be a tad above parallel at its lowest point) and look how high he jumped. Watch the video and look at his 2 footed technique. Just pattern it after him. Don’t really know if he “bend” is optimal or not, all I know is that he gets up!

observe their techniques in this one too:

http://www.dunkalicious.com/videos2004/corse-outdoor.wmv

Ah, yes, Brice and Yann. I’ve been watching their technique for quite a while. It was only after watching them that I gained at least 3" on my jump with the ball (technique wise.) I’m going to go ball in a few hours and will try out the new jumping technique and I’ll probably bring a camera too.

I got some photos of me grabbing the rim today lol and a photo of a missed dunk attempt just before I tried to dunk it.

Here’s a picture of me grabbing the rim with one hand. I still can’t consistently grab the rim with two hands but one hand grab is very easy.