Jumanji,
1)What are B drills?
2)What do you do to develop hamstring stiffness and reactive ability - I don’t have a GHR or reverse hyper?
[quote]Jumanji wrote:
The other thing to remember is that not only must you assess what your body craves in terms of training, but also look at what are the easier gains…
I ragged the guy who suggestion strength work previously, but if it would be easier to add 50-100 pounds to your squat than to add reactive ability, then you may jump into that… I know Hammerites just balked, but it is true. Then your body will really crave the other training.
[/quote]
I don’t know about Hammerites balking at this suggestion. DB used to say your body responds quickest to what it needs most
or something to that effect
So what you are saying is really dead on. Of course you do have an strong understanding of the inno-sport methods
[quote]chuck526 wrote:
Jumanji,
1)What are B drills?
2)What do you do to develop hamstring stiffness and reactive ability - I don’t have a GHR or reverse hyper?
[/quote]
B drills is a skipping exercise where you kick the swing leg out (like a high step)on the hop
Stiffness could be iso goodmornings, iso stiff leg deadlift, iso back raise hold in the hip flexion (stretch), you can do them traditionally or staggered stance. you could also do the same with slow eccentrice.
just some ideas
I like staggered because I don;t like holding 300+ pounds on my back for an extended period of time. This way you still get the hammie benefit, but have some added security
The basis for stiffness is developed as described by Squattin… that will build eccentric strength…then to add the quick rate of firing eccentrically yuo’d want to do B Drills as he describes, Prime Time runs, and can even do some work on a leg curl machine in a reactive manner… starting light. I also do reactive 4-Way Hip to bring about that quick eccentric for the entire rear chain… Hope this helps.
The comment I made about Hammerites balking was because I was saying that a duration dominant athlete who was 200# but only squatted 300# may be able to quickly add 100# to his squat as opposed to the traditional Hammerite prescription of more rate work…since rate work is really what his body desires…
I did this during this past season with a HS player in NH who stuck to the ground quite a bit. He only squatted about as much as he weighed…so I decided to really bring up his strength…even though he was a grinder when he lifed, and had poor reactive qualities… He got up to squatting 1.75X his BW over the next 16 weeks (4 were Strength Focused, then 8 were MaF and Max P mixed, then all MaxP, MaxR / plyo work with maintenance of the other MaxS and MaxF)
He added about 100 pounds in the first eight weeks or so…
So even though he needed Rate / Reactive work, the strength work was just to easy to make gains on to surpass…
It is actually true that you cannot be too strong, as long as you alter the firing pattern back to being high RFD both eccentrically and concentrically…
J
[quote]OK, enough rambling.
I thing ColCoolJ is a great resource on this also. He has made great gains over the past year or so, and I actually want to hear what he has to add. He is a diehard Hammerite who has found great success switching from being strength dominant to being for more rate and reactive dominant.
ColCoolJ?
[/quote]
not much more I can add, you did a good job 
movement effeciency is king!
Get that before you get stronger, and then maintain it as you get stronger. That will save a lot of trouble. Once your stronger, its a bitch to get it back again and to the same level as before. Because you will try and muscle everything instead of being relaxed and reflexive…
It’s like being smooth and zen like when you reach that perfect balanced state
According to R.A. Roman a great former Soviet Weightlifting Coach for you to clean and jerk a world record you should be able to jump about 25inches with an extra half your bodyweight attached. This number was for the 90kilo class.
CoolColJ,
Care to give any insight on how to improve or maintain movement efficiency?
Did you do this through specific exercise methods/modalities (such as OI’s) or by practicing the movements in question. I imagine the warm-up and cool-down is a big part of this, I read your log on the DB forum pretty regularly so I have a pretty good idea what you are doing there, but if you want to shed a little more light on the topic, I’d appreciate it.
Jumanji,
Any comments on my last post? I’d like to pick your brain until you get sick of me!
J Trin~
Yes, this is correct. I actually do 4 week blocks with 3 the way CT does them, then do a bigger dropoff in week 4. I know DB says 4:1 or 6:2, but I do a 6:1, then go into a transition phase which includes testing. So yes, a 4 week cycle, then a two week cycle, with weeks 1 of 4 being a base week, and week 4 of 4 being a 2 workout week (Upper / Lower), but with a deeper dropoff.
I know people make a lot about crossing the fence, but you can make great progress quickly depending on how you do it… and don’t do it indefinitely…why I use two week cycles of it…
What is funny is that I really don’t do much pure strength work after I get an athlete’s strength levels up to acceptable range.
I am not going as far as DB and proclaiming the emphasis to be ridiculous, but if an athlete is willing to eat correctly, and train soundly, the strength for most team sport athletes is easy to bring up… and gains accompany this usually.
I will say that most team sport athletes have horrible strength levels, but since I train kids whose parents are willing to pay for good training, the other aspects of recovery are usually better… I also give ‘scholarships’ and these kids do well also… motivation is key here…
So yes, what you say is all correct and right on…, try it out and see how you progress. I like that particualr method, because I like regular testing along the entire force curve…
Evil Homer~
Yes, absolutely!! It is odd how the Olympic Lifts have become absolutes as substitutes for other great force and power methods, such as drop squats, reactive squats, and jump squats…
I like using an X-vest personally for most of my jump squat work, but in 15 years I have never had an issue using a bar for them or box squats… love both!!
Glad to see that I am not the only one who loves the ruskies…!!!
Thanks.
J
[quote]Jumanji wrote:
J Trin~
Yes, this is correct. I actually do 4 week blocks with 3 the way CT does them, then do a bigger dropoff in week 4. I know DB says 4:1 or 6:2, but I do a 6:1, then go into a transition phase which includes testing. So yes, a 4 week cycle, then a two week cycle, with weeks 1 of 4 being a base week, and week 4 of 4 being a 2 workout week (Upper / Lower), but with a deeper dropoff.
I know people make a lot about crossing the fence, but you can make great progress quickly depending on how you do it… and don’t do it indefinitely…why I use two week cycles of it…
What is funny is that I really don’t do much pure strength work after I get an athlete’s strength levels up to acceptable range.
I am not going as far as DB and proclaiming the emphasis to be ridiculous, but if an athlete is willing to eat correctly, and train soundly, the strength for most team sport athletes is easy to bring up… and gains accompany this usually.
I will say that most team sport athletes have horrible strength levels, but since I train kids whose parents are willing to pay for good training, the other aspects of recovery are usually better… I also give ‘scholarships’ and these kids do well also… motivation is key here…
So yes, what you say is all correct and right on…, try it out and see how you progress. I like that particualr method, because I like regular testing along the entire force curve…
Evil Homer~
Yes, absolutely!! It is odd how the Olympic Lifts have become absolutes as substitutes for other great force and power methods, such as drop squats, reactive squats, and jump squats…
I like using an X-vest personally for most of my jump squat work, but in 15 years I have never had an issue using a bar for them or box squats… love both!!
Glad to see that I am not the only one who loves the ruskies…!!!
Thanks.
J
[/quote]
Jumanji,
So for say a strength block that transitions into a power/rate block, would it be something like
Strength phase
Block 1:
Week 1-3 MaxS with 5-6% dropoff per session
Week 4 MaxS with 10% dropoff
Block 2:
Session 1 MaxS and MaxP
Session 2 MaxP and MaxR
Session 3 MaxS and Max P
Session 4 MaxP and MaxR
shift to MaxP training block
R~
You could try that, or you could move the whole way through the force curve Str → Rate, or Rate → Str, hitting an exercise in each category (however you bust it up). Rate, Ballistic, Power, Str… whatever you feel.
What you wrote could be good, and based on what aspect you put first in the workout, you would test on… not necessarily for a 1RM or whatever, but for a PB. Unless you are cycling like DB recommends, and then the effort should be similar for both lifts.
What cosgrove wrote about this week was right on target… being that there are a million ways to do it, but the effort is huge…
You can sit and try to nail the perfect program, but you already know everything you need to:
Squat 2.5 X BW.
Build up Reactivity in PF and Hammies.
Get Lean (goes with #1!!)
Build Power all along the curve once strength base is up to snuff (See the comment about what Roman wrote).
Finally, learn to move efficiently… ColCoolJ has made great strides in this dept… less is more is very true. Grace, fluidity, suppleness… all improve speed and thus power in a rate dominant setting.
Now just work towards those goals.
Whether it is CT, or Db, or Westside, of CFTS, or whatever, the result can all be the same since they are all based on sound principles… Alwyn is absolutely dead on there.
Just take those principles and align them with your needs…
The rest is just numbers in an excel file…
J
[quote]Jumanji wrote:
R~
You could try that, or you could move the whole way through the force curve Str → Rate, or Rate → Str, hitting an exercise in each category (however you bust it up). Rate, Ballistic, Power, Str… whatever you feel.
What you wrote could be good, and based on what aspect you put first in the workout, you would test on… not necessarily for a 1RM or whatever, but for a PB. Unless you are cycling like DB recommends, and then the effort should be similar for both lifts.
What cosgrove wrote about this week was right on target… being that there are a million ways to do it, but the effort is huge…
You can sit and try to nail the perfect program, but you already know everything you need to:
Squat 2.5 X BW.
Build up Reactivity in PF and Hammies.
Get Lean (goes with #1!!)
Build Power all along the curve once strength base is up to snuff (See the comment about what Roman wrote).
Finally, learn to move efficiently… ColCoolJ has made great strides in this dept… less is more is very true. Grace, fluidity, suppleness… all improve speed and thus power in a rate dominant setting.
Now just work towards those goals.
Whether it is CT, or Db, or Westside, of CFTS, or whatever, the result can all be the same since they are all based on sound principles… Alwyn is absolutely dead on there.
Just take those principles and align them with your needs…
The rest is just numbers in an excel file…
J[/quote]
Yeah, i think i was getting kinda obsessed with vertical jump and the best way to increase it. As far as what you said in terms of the areas of focus, I’m like 30-40lbs from 2.5X squat, i’m about as naturally lean as one can get, so I need to get back to increasing reactivity and building power.
In hindsight, the biggest mistake i really made was leaving basketball alone while I went from 130-160lbs in like a 6month span, a couple of years ago. Since then I haven’t participated in anything really reactive or movement specific for more than a few weeks at a time every once in a while.
Until i was like 20,I was super skinny,basically all reactive and strictly a one foot jumper, but thought I had to quit burnin so many calories to get my weight up. I began squatting(not to parallel) and became quad dominant. I didn’t work on power at all, and lost some reactivity, so I became pretty duration dominant. My one foot jump slighty decreased but became much more “muscled” as you guys put it, but my two foot jump went up a lot from just the strength gains.
In the past year, I’ve been working on building up posterior chain strength and just liftin weights in general. Every couple months I may do more things out of the weight room such as sprinting or playing football or basketball, but abandon them for total strength training once again. Interestingly enough my best vertical gains came during flag football season while squatting.
Reading about training from quality sources such as sites like these makes me a little more informed, and I’ve realized sometimes less is more, I just started really understanding the importance of the CNS and monitoring it in the past few months. Now I’m just playing sports on a regular basis and hitting the weight room with intelligent efficiency a few times a week.
I see what you mean about working along the entire curve at once,and there being no need to totally abandon any training emphasis. Do you think one could get enough intensive reactive and rate work from just playing basketball or football a few times a week, then using the weight room to work on strength and power? Because I was under the impression that good hard defense in basketball and defensive back work really emphasized hamstring reactivity.
R~
You do have to factor in the basketball and football training into the overall equation, but remember that PF and Hammie reactivity must be developed sequentially…
This was the entire reason why plyos were developed in the first place, IMO. To progressively build PF reactivity…
Remember also that in the Olympic lifts, the power versions stress reactivity in the quads, then the hips, glutes, hammies since it is caught so upright… but, the true Olympic athletes catch in a full squat position where the emphasis has shifted to the posterior chain… this key point is missed by most American coaches who have jumped on to the O-Lift bandwagon without understanding anything about why they CAN be such good lifts…
I was at the Sport Specific NSCA clinic in Louiseville this past year, and I was listening to a keynote speaker discuss how he doesn’t even care if his athletes ever perform a successful catch.
I wanted to raise my hand, but I don’t think it is good to pick a fight with a 5-watt lightbulb in a room full of 5-watt lightbulbs… although I think a couple Darkside guys may have had my back since they basically have faced the upwardly nosed turned profession for years also…
The point being that if the rear chain reactivity might be an issue, you may even do some depth drops into a full squat coupled with full squat force drop absorptions… much of the emphasis will be on the rear chain this way… then you could mix in some OI Leg Curl, or whatever… (I would always recommend Prime Times also, but I was a track guy for some time, so that isn’t a suprise!!)
Anyway, good luck…
You have the answers… they are within you… just trust your own knowledge and go at it hard…
J
[quote]Jumanji wrote:
R~
You do have to factor in the basketball and football training into the overall equation, but remember that PF and Hammie reactivity must be developed sequentially…
This was the entire reason why plyos were developed in the first place, IMO. To progressively build PF reactivity…
Remember also that in the Olympic lifts, the power versions stress reactivity in the quads, then the hips, glutes, hammies since it is caught so upright… but, the true Olympic athletes catch in a full squat position where the emphasis has shifted to the posterior chain… this key point is missed by most American coaches who have jumped on to the O-Lift bandwagon without understanding anything about why they CAN be such good lifts…
I was at the Sport Specific NSCA clinic in Louiseville this past year, and I was listening to a keynote speaker discuss how he doesn’t even care if his athletes ever perform a successful catch.
I wanted to raise my hand, but I don’t think it is good to pick a fight with a 5-watt lightbulb in a room full of 5-watt lightbulbs… although I think a couple Darkside guys may have had my back since they basically have faced the upwardly nosed turned profession for years also…
The point being that if the rear chain reactivity might be an issue, you may even do some depth drops into a full squat coupled with full squat force drop absorptions… much of the emphasis will be on the rear chain this way… then you could mix in some OI Leg Curl, or whatever… (I would always recommend Prime Times also, but I was a track guy for some time, so that isn’t a suprise!!)
Anyway, good luck…
You have the answers… they are within you… just trust your own knowledge and go at it hard…
J[/quote]
J,
Thanks for the input. What is the difference between a depth drop into a full squat, and a full squat force drop absorption?
Also for the depth drops, I did them yesterday and was landing in an athletic stance, would that take less emphasis off of the rear chain than if i landed in a full squat? I also did single leg REA squats, and I could really feel the absorption much better than with the REA back squat version, IMO.
Ronnie
Jumanji,
How many days a week do you train, split? Do you have any experience/success with training everyday like Jay Schroeder?
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
CoolColJ,
Care to give any insight on how to improve or maintain movement efficiency?
Did you do this through specific exercise methods/modalities (such as OI’s) or by practicing the movements in question. I imagine the warm-up and cool-down is a big part of this, I read your log on the DB forum pretty regularly so I have a pretty good idea what you are doing there, but if you want to shed a little more light on the topic, I’d appreciate it.
[/quote]
just lots of rate work, both maximal and sub-maximal. Sub-max you can do as part of your general warmup, and just by playing your sport and moving athleticly a lot. Focusing on being relaxed and fluid though
This will allow you to connect the dots between efforts of maximal power display. Otherwise you will one of those people that can’t blend things together on the fly in broken play and transition. You feel like your body is fighting itself etc
been there, anf finally fixing it
R~
Depth Drops are just another way to say altitude landings in a full squat… and yes, I feel absorption much better in isolateral type exercises also…
Chuck~
I do not train every day like Schroader and Waterbury do so to speak… I use a Hi-Lo method, or CFTS method as much as possible. Remember that with these methods, the “off” day is usually harder than the on day…let me explain.
An off day for me might be going through my top 10 favorite soccer turns after a full dynamic warm-up…this is usually a full warm-up incorporating my favorites from the ten or so dynamic warm-up I use with my athletes. During the 10 favorite turns, I really concentrate on efficiency and addressing the ball with very good body angles…addressing it aggressively…kinda like the triple threat position of a basketball guard when he catches the ball with a defender near… training the body to accept the ball while moving, and maintaining a very aggressive body posture is what allows me to go right by athletes of even greater athletic talent… I do not dip to move since I catch the ball low… so there is very little hip drop, COG forward shift when I move…I am always trying to stay that way…
If you didn’t get what I just wrote, you just missed the best point I have ever written at T-Mag… it seems obvious, but 99.999999% of all athletes literally tell me where they are going…so at 20 pounds or so over weight (true competitive weight) I still PERFORM faster than most.
Simple, easy, forgotten, not addressed over, and over, and over by coaches…it should be, and should be harped on by S&C guys who would like to see those big weightroom numbers translate into onfield performance… the huge gap.
Anyway, so maybe 10 minutes of turns, and 10 minutes of man-beaters… but not doing them explosively per se, just quickly and fluidly sans top explosion…that is for a CNS intensive day. Then I may do some sort of tempo work… maybe 1600-3200 yards depending on the state of my legs…
Between each rep I do GPP stuff for like 20 reps just to really flush the blood around some… hindu push-ups, table tops, burpees, etc.
Since I am a team sport guy, my tempo isn’t always running…it is carioca, strides, sideways run, backpedal, backpedals with hip openers, etc… all at a good rate, but not “top speed”.
The some sled drags to get some horizontal pulling, if I have not done heavy drags on CNS days for a while… then…
Finally I usually finish with 3-6 X 50m of high knees or A skips for the hip flexors, with rest intervals that incorporate low intensity core work 20s on, 20s off for 3 minutes.
By this time I am usually spent and need a shower and some time to allow my body to rest…a nappy… nothing I did was hard, but the workload is very high.
If I don’t feel like doing tempos, I do GPP for 16-30 minutes, choosing from about 100 different exercises… just pick as I go, 4 at a time for 30-60s intervals… nothing fancy. Davies is right that these really up the GPP levels very quickly…very.
The next day is a good lift / sprint / PF work, etc.
Lifting weights is the easy part… truly being in shape is not.
This is why I think my “easy” days are by far harder than lift days…
And, why at 34 I am the last coach who you want to be doing the A.M. sessions for athletes who skipped classes, etc… I will do it all with you… smiling.
Well, maybe Chek would be worse… maybe. He is a fit, proud man.
J
Jumanji,
Thanks for the great response - Must practice your sport to be good at your sport. Need to save “some” for the sport.
Another question. When you say 2.5X Bodyweight squat does that mean a powerlifting or olypmpic style squat?
Thanks!
I am not sure, as I don’t so either…
I stand in an athletic stance, place the bar in a medium low position (dislocated the left shoulder a few times, and subluxed the right, plus rotator cuff issues), squat until the top of my thigh is parellel (use a BFS beeper on Max Effort type days).
I am not sure what form this is… not wide like Westside though.
I actually squat lower normally, and then ease it up when the weight is maximal… I think this may help… although my knee still swells a bit when I go really heavy (two surgeries).
I think the idea is more to have built the base of strength… whether you squat like a VJ, or like a Powerlifter… it all shows a level of dedication… IMO.
That being said, I often think it would be really kool to lift like some of the guys here… I am just too dedicated to being agile… sissy I guess… LOL.
J
J,
Great post as always. I think what you and CCJ have been saying really puts into good light something that has been kind of spinning around in my head for a while. I work with volleyball players (as I’m one myself), and recently I replaced some of the high-intensity sessions with what I call “lights” where I just had them move through at about 80% speed, but really focusing on moving fluidly and with rhythm. I found that their skills were almost always better when they “weren’t trying” than when they tried to go all-out and started forcing the movements.
I also like the COG comments, I definitly harp on this constantly but find that a lot of times the girls I work with simply have a lot of trouble manipulating their COG, especially when low to the floor (which is vital in volleyball defense). I feel like a lot of times this is almost entirely a p-chain strength issue. I guess the best way to correct that is just to bring up the p-chain strength in the weight room and then continue to practice the movements with the right verbal cues?
Jumanji
You might as well post a sample lifting day to go along with your other posts. By combining the two posts, you will have written your first article for T-Nation. Thanks for the good information.