[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
A person concerned with evidence instead of superstition would watch a few of these videos in YouTube:
Or you could keep living on Fantasy Island. [/quote]
It works well in MMA. Fair enough. But even there, it’s not indefensible… a striker who knows how to sprawl well and not go to to the ground can win against a strict BJJ guy.
And for self defense, it’s not practical. Going to the ground in a barfight is very dangerous.
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Been reading the thread. Just amazes me. I’m a lifelong skeptic. I like to see evidence, not claims.
The evidence about BJJ has been in for decades. The shit is better than any TMA.
Then again, people still believe in George Dillman:
Dillman explains chi KO nullification - YouTube
What can ya do?[/quote]
Come on now Dillman is a clown. He took a few basic Tuite classes with Tuite master Seiyu Oyata then went and got a chart of the nervous system and set up his own system. Oyata can knock a person out but evertime I have seen him do it he had to touche them. Here is Oyata knocking out Dillman. 
here are some other vids.
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
A person concerned with evidence instead of superstition would watch a few of these videos in YouTube:
[/quote]
This video the Shotokan fighter didn’t even try to defend himself by moving. It just went right to the ground which is not a good place to be with a Ju Jitsu person. [quote]
[/quote]
I wasn’t sure who was who. It looked like both fighters had grappling skills. Neither moved the greatest during the stand up.[quote]
[/quote]
Again noone moves. Movement is essential to fighting. It is how you keep from getting beat on. It is also how you make it difficult to taken down. You are using people who are poor examples of what they are suppposed to be good at and their weakness quickly gets them into what the Gracies are good at. [quote]
Or you could keep living on Fantasy Island. [/quote]
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Come on now Dillman is a clown. He took a few basic Tuite classes with Tuite master Seiyu Oyata then went and got a chart of the nervous system and set up his own system. Oyata can knock a person out but evertime I have seen him do it he had to touche them. Here is Oyata knocking out Dillman.
[/quote]
Dillman is everything that is wrong about TMA, or matial arts in general.
Honestly though, after watching that video, I don’t have that much faith that Oyata can knock someone out either. Notice that Dillman moves his head before Oyata supposedly re-awakens him (then quickly tries to move his head back into position to make it look like Oyata’s touch was what caused him to regain consciousness).
Besides, he’s hitting him in the side of the neck (carotid sinus). It doesn’t take some Dim Mak master to knock someone out with a strike there.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Come on now Dillman is a clown. He took a few basic Tuite classes with Tuite master Seiyu Oyata then went and got a chart of the nervous system and set up his own system. Oyata can knock a person out but evertime I have seen him do it he had to touche them. Here is Oyata knocking out Dillman.
Dillman is everything that is wrong about TMA, or matial arts in general.
Honestly though, after watching that video, I don’t have that much faith that Oyata can knock someone out either. Notice that Dillman moves his head before Oyata supposedly re-awakens him (then quickly tries to move his head back into position to make it look like Oyata’s touch was what caused him to regain consciousness).
Besides, he’s hitting him in the side of the neck (carotid sinus). It doesn’t take some Dim Mak master to knock someone out with a strike there.[/quote]
LOL.
It’s amazing how sometimes science coincides EXACTLY with mysticism.
Yea, it’s a MAGIC touch, it’ll kill you in a month, if you hit it with three fingers you’ll break through his neck like a martial arts version of Species.
Nah motherfucker, you punched him in a nerve center and that hurts like hell… haha. Too funny.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
I wouldn’t say anything is guaranteed to incapacitate someone, but some things are more likely than others. ie I have a freind who was kicked so hard in the groin he lost a testicle. He stayed on his feet and was still able to function. Can everbody do that? My guess would be no.
Eyes are very delicate and they have their own nerves that connect directly to the brain. You sound like you have never been poked in the eye real bad. I’ve been kicked directy in the eye with a big toe hard enough that my nervous system shut down.
One moment I was standing there, I saw a toe then a flash of light and I just dropped to the floor. It didn’t hurt as much as I thought it would but the whole wooziness afterwards was awful it was like nothing else I have ever experienced.
You guys who think you can just suck it up and tough your way through an eye attack are delusional.
I once shattered a bone in my hand into so many pieces they couldn’t use anestetic when they set it. I would rather do that again that go through getting kicked in the eye.
I think Loren Christensen has said that… there is no end all move for fighting, but if he had to say which one was closest, it was the eye gouge. [/quote]
Although I really cannot understand your affinity for McYoung (I have to check out Christensen) eye gouges are really nasty business. You can be totally fit, aggressive, fresh… the moment a certain “depth” or “angle” in the eye has been hit it’s so over. The world is reduced to your eye pain.
p.s. doesn’t have to be pain exclusively, it can also be just a strong irritation, you’re just as helpless.
I was once blinded for about two minutes by some experimental bomb some fuckers from the neighbourhood set up. They didn’t want to target me and it didnt really explode but some fumes hit my eye and I was instantly KO, crawling on the pavement, confused and helpless.
I once read of a supposed Ninja weapon of similar design, laughing about the apparent uselessness and wild imagination of the writer but after experiencing this I must say I can def. imagine that as a last resort weapon.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Come on now Dillman is a clown. He took a few basic Tuite classes with Tuite master Seiyu Oyata then went and got a chart of the nervous system and set up his own system. Oyata can knock a person out but evertime I have seen him do it he had to touche them. Here is Oyata knocking out Dillman.
Dillman is everything that is wrong about TMA, or matial arts in general.
Honestly though, after watching that video, I don’t have that much faith that Oyata can knock someone out either. Notice that Dillman moves his head before Oyata supposedly re-awakens him (then quickly tries to move his head back into position to make it look like Oyata’s touch was what caused him to regain consciousness).
Besides, he’s hitting him in the side of the neck (carotid sinus). It doesn’t take some Dim Mak master to knock someone out with a strike there.[/quote]
Sure it is a carotid strike, what were you expecting? If you are expecting him to do some magic voodoo dim mak hand wave from five feet away and his Uke just drops, that isn’t going to happen.
Carotid strikes are not the same kind of knock out as smashing someone in the head with a massive blow that bruises the brain. What you are seeing is Dillmans brain gets a surge of blood pressure followed by a drop in blood pressure. It a black out, just like if you stand up too quickly.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
I wouldn’t say anything is guaranteed to incapacitate someone, but some things are more likely than others. ie I have a freind who was kicked so hard in the groin he lost a testicle. He stayed on his feet and was still able to function. Can everbody do that? My guess would be no.
Eyes are very delicate and they have their own nerves that connect directly to the brain. You sound like you have never been poked in the eye real bad. I’ve been kicked directy in the eye with a big toe hard enough that my nervous system shut down.
One moment I was standing there, I saw a toe then a flash of light and I just dropped to the floor. It didn’t hurt as much as I thought it would but the whole wooziness afterwards was awful it was like nothing else I have ever experienced.
You guys who think you can just suck it up and tough your way through an eye attack are delusional.
I once shattered a bone in my hand into so many pieces they couldn’t use anestetic when they set it. I would rather do that again that go through getting kicked in the eye.
I think Loren Christensen has said that… there is no end all move for fighting, but if he had to say which one was closest, it was the eye gouge.
Although I really cannot understand your affinity for McYoung (I have to check out Christensen) eye gouges are really nasty business. You can be totally fit, aggressive, fresh… the moment a certain “depth” or “angle” in the eye has been hit it’s so over. The world is reduced to your eye pain.
p.s. doesn’t have to be pain exclusively, it can also be just a strong irritation, you’re just as helpless.
I was once blinded for about two minutes by some experimental bomb some fuckers from the neighbourhood set up. They didn’t want to target me and it didnt really explode but some fumes hit my eye and I was instantly KO, crawling on the pavement, confused and helpless.
I once read of a supposed Ninja weapon of similar design, laughing about the apparent uselessness and wild imagination of the writer but after experiencing this I must say I can def. imagine that as a last resort weapon.[/quote]
Having had an eye injurie you know what I am talking about. Guys who think they could just bull their way through the pain of an eye injurie have never had one. It is one of those injuries that will have your central nervous system doing things you did not know it was capable of.
I learned a whole new respect for nerves the day I jammed my funny bone on a protruding screw head. It hit the spot in a way I have never done before. My whole body was affected, my ears ringing with white noise all the other sounds around me were mufffled. That was the most indescribeably awful experience I ever had. As painful as it was, it was more than just pain I was experiencing my whole nervous system was overwelmed.
If I missed it, sorry.
Anyone work with the judo “ankle pick?”
I’ve seen a few vids of a high-low level transition, into a one-hand ankle grab, with the grabber either lifting and moving forward, or sliding the ankle and stepping in a circle.
I’ve got this technique out of Chatan Yara no Sai, provided one puts down the flails.
we did ankle picks in wrestling, looks the same to me.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Come on now Dillman is a clown. He took a few basic Tuite classes with Tuite master Seiyu Oyata then went and got a chart of the nervous system and set up his own system. Oyata can knock a person out but evertime I have seen him do it he had to touche them. Here is Oyata knocking out Dillman.
Dillman is everything that is wrong about TMA, or matial arts in general.
Honestly though, after watching that video, I don’t have that much faith that Oyata can knock someone out either. Notice that Dillman moves his head before Oyata supposedly re-awakens him (then quickly tries to move his head back into position to make it look like Oyata’s touch was what caused him to regain consciousness).
Besides, he’s hitting him in the side of the neck (carotid sinus). It doesn’t take some Dim Mak master to knock someone out with a strike there.
Sure it is a carotid strike, what were you expecting? If you are expecting him to do some magic voodoo dim mak hand wave from five feet away and his Uke just drops, that isn’t going to happen.
Carotid strikes are not the same kind of knock out as smashing someone in the head with a massive blow that bruises the brain. What you are seeing is Dillmans brain gets a surge of blood pressure followed by a drop in blood pressure. It a black out, just like if you stand up too quickly. [/quote]
Well, there are other less common KO points, but after watching some of Dillman’s trash I didn’t know what to expect. LOL.
Yes, I know the mechanism behind carotid KO’s. My point was that it’s nothing special to be able to KO someone with a strike to the carotid sinus. It’s just basic physiology.
Yes it is fairly easy to use the carotid strike. Oyata has a lot of other techniques besides that. One really important aspect of Oyata’s tuite is that he goes a lot further than merely knowing where nerves are like Dillman.
Oyata has specific ways of attacking specific nerves. Because not all nerves are readily available so you can just hit them any way you feel like and they will give an affect. As with any martial art there are suttleties of technique that can make a technique much more effective.
It just like the difference between the basic accupuncture the Chinese teach in medical school and the accupunture practiced by the Shaolin. The Shaolin don’t just jam needles into nerves. The Shaolin go into much more detail where the needle for each nerve goes in to a depth and at an angle that is unique to each nerve.
In other words, to beat a grappler, you must train grappling. Not surprises there.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
here are some other vids.
- YouTube [/quote]
Did you ever notice that the guys on the video are always doing their magical techniques on their students? Might there be a reason for that?
The power of belief is strong. Dillman’s student believe in that bullshit, so they literally do fall down by the “death touch.”
Where are the videos of your sensi/master doing those techniques to someone who is not part of the cult? How about in a real fight against a resisting opponent?
Case closed.
I’ve been in enough fights to know that they usually will end up on the ground.
And bar fighting in itself is “very dangerous.” Using your logic, we should avoid bar fights.
I agree.
But since it’s a face that bar fights will usually end up on the ground, it makes the most sense to prepare for the ground.
ok so who wins? a kenjutsu guy or a bjj guy
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
But since it’s a face that bar fights will usually end up on the ground, it makes the most sense to prepare for the ground.[/quote]
It is not. That’s a great fallacy based on an old model that was actually talking about incidents with cops and arrests. Because police must have leverage on a suspect (or whatever you would call the cat being arrested), their tendency was to go to the ground immediately to cuff the person.
Somehow, this mutated into the “95% of all fights end up on the ground” when really, there would never be a true way to calculate this. Besides that, from personal experience, fights do not end up on the ground until one guy has landed a good clean shot that takes the other down. A severe strike leads to groundfighting more often then not.
Does that mean you shouldn’t train grappling? Of course not. I do, just so I know what to do in case the situation arises.
But I would still take a good striking art over a grappling art anyday as my prime mover of self-defense, or else I gauranfuckingtee you will get stomped or curbed by staying on the ground.
The best tactic in the street for groundfighting is getting the fuck back on your feet. Thinking anything else will work, or that you are safe on the ground for more than three seconds, is wishful thinking.
I’ve been in dozens of street fights. I know where fights end up. My knowledge is not based on some arrest data or anything I’ve read or that someone has told me.
Most ended up on the ground. Which is where I didn’t want them to end up, since my training was TMA and boxing. But that’s where they’d end up.
At the time, I knew how to keep my distance, moving in an out. Which was often enough to lights out the guy before to the ground. But that’s still where most ended up. It would have been nice to have had some grappling back then. Though, who knows, I may have taken a guy down and killed him.
If I were to fight today, I would much rather use my boxing on the guy than my Judo or BJJ. It’s not even close. The odds of devastating someone are much, much, much greater using a throw or arm bar than throwing a punch or kick.
People have their own belief systems. Discussing martial arts is like talking about religion. You can show all the evidence in the world to guys that BJJ is superior, and people will still debate the issue. Like the grappler v. striker videos are all fake?
Or then that street fights do not end up on the ground?
People will do so much to reject the truth.
Much is superstition, but also much is that BJJ is hard. You roll against a resisting opponent. Every BJJ class smokes me. I leave drained. It’s by far the hardest workout I do.
Many would just rather kick air or do “forearm blocks” to each other.
You also test yourself constantly. Unlike Karate and other fake arts, you can’t say, “Oh, I am so bad ass. I just can’t prove it because my throat strikes will kill people.” Every day in the grappling gym you’re worth and place on the pecking order can be easily established.
Many are not able to deal with being humbled on a regular basis. And with BJJ, until you’ve been training for 5 or so years, you will regularly be humbled. There’s no bullshit or mysticism. Just bad-ass workouts and a chance to validate yourself daily.
I have always made it a point to live in the real, rational world. Hence, I train BJJ.
People will always go to “psychics,” and John Edward will sell books showing that he talks to the dead. All of this even though James Randi has proven that all of that is a scam.
Likewise, BJJ practitioners have proven that TMA is a scam. But dojos are still full. The “Dawn Davis Karate School” has way more students than my BJJ and MMA academies combined. Oh well.
Ahahaha, you got sucked in CLaw…sucker!