Jiu Jitsu Wrestling Takedowns

Training
101

[quote]Sifu wrote:
OMC wrote:
Sifu wrote:

I am a TKD fanboy because I argue in favor of effective takedowns???..errr ok then.

No not a fanboy. But very assuming. You assume that since the TKD people are always trying to get distance to run at people with kicks then everyone else fights that way too.

Yes my kenpo instructor was excellent…ex army instructor for the rangers. TKD I picked up for a year and a half when I was in school because I had friends doing it. Did benefit from it but it added very little overall to my knowledge even though the instructor was good.

GSP did nothing in your opinion? he took several solid clean punches from a heavy handed opponent…you have no idea what you are talking about.

Watch the video and see how they finished up. GSP is lying on his back with Serra standing over him with his legs spread apart and GSP’ feet resting against Serra’s groin but he didn’t kick him in the nuts. He might have been too out of it, but it looked like he still had some of his senses, if he did he should have blasted him.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4ywgh_st-pierre-serra_sport

Your talking about people shooting through the punches of kicboxers…I’m sorry the juries in on that one…Maurice Smith, Semmy Schilt, Ramon Dekkers…all world clss kickboxers…all taken down. Your arguing a point that has
been proven wrong over and over again.

The jurie is in that you can dive into a punch or elbow or kick or knee to the head and not get knocked out??? You are deusional if you think a solid blow to the head can’t knock someone out. Especially if you run into it.

I am not suggesting you can’t take someone down. Or that someone can’t be effective at takedowns. You on the other hand are in delusional suggesting that takedowns can’t be countered. Or suggesting that there aren’t fighters who are good at countering takedowns.

What you need to do is get some fighting experience. If you get experience you will learn that there are very few if any techniques that are surefire going to do what you want them to do everytime.

This post of yours was ridiculous.

OMC

[/quote]

What the hell is wrong with you? I’m an exponent of kenpo you muppet NOT Tae Kwon do

…I DON’T WANT DISTANCE IN A FIGHT…I WANT TO CLOSE THE DISTANCE!!!

…how is this not clear to you? Are you that stupid?

Who the hell is saying that you can shoot through punches??? Are you fucking retarded? You shoot under punches. I would at least expect you to work that out with all your grappling skills.

EVERY takedown “defense” you have suggested is ridiculous…you never referred to sprawls, underhooks, positioning yourself to obtain an instant reversal.
NO … you talk about eye pokes against a face that is at best pressed into your chest or stomach and at worst behind your hip.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT…YOU ARE A DISGRACE TO YOUR STYLE AND MARTIAL ARTS IN GENERAL. YOU ENDANGER PEOPLE WITH FALSE INFORMATION AND REFUSE TO ACCEPT YOUR OBVIOUS FAILINGS.

I’ve news for you pal…you can’t win an argument were you are in the wrong so stop twisting words and trying to.

As for me needing more fighting experience…I just showed this thread to a training partner of mine…lets just say he’s still laughing at you over that one.

Itried my best to ive you some degree of respect as undeservin as you clearly are. Cali was right for once but I guess I should have expected no less from someone who uses the cantonese word for “master” as his screen name…yeah…real humble. Jackass.

Have a nice day

OMC

102

[quote]grayman19 wrote:
As to a pin- The Saturday Night Ride (so my team calls it) as the ultimate in embarrassment and shaming. Too bad it only works on chumps, but if you can get it, the fool under you is never going to forget it.
[/quote]

Saturday Night Ride huh? Which highschool in Mass do you wrestle for grayman?

103

[quote]Sifu wrote:
NDM wrote:
Sifu wrote:
We had another black belt from our group who was a cop in Windsor Canada which is a really safe city with no violent crime. He died from a knife to the chest.

Uhhh, when did this happen? Windsor is a safe city compared to Detroit, but it still does have it’s violent crime. A cop was killed a few years ago. A knife was not involved though…

What area in the D are you training in?

I can’t remember exactly because it has been about ten years give or take. Windsor is a safe city unless you are a black cop answering a domestic disturbance at a racists house.

Eastside.[/quote]

I’m pretty sure this never happened. I’ll ask my buddy, who has been a Windsor cop for the last 16 years.

Your second point is way off.

104

[quote]Sifu wrote:

You guys who think you can just suck it up and tough your way through an eye attack are delusional. I once shattered a bone in my hand into so many pieces they couldn’t use anestetic when they set it. I would rather do that again that go through getting kicked in the eye. [/quote]

last two and a half minutes…

105

[quote]OMC wrote:
Sifu wrote:
OMC wrote:
Sifu wrote:

I am a TKD fanboy because I argue in favor of effective takedowns???..errr ok then.

No not a fanboy. But very assuming. You assume that since the TKD people are always trying to get distance to run at people with kicks then everyone else fights that way too.

Yes my kenpo instructor was excellent…ex army instructor for the rangers. TKD I picked up for a year and a half when I was in school because I had friends doing it. Did benefit from it but it added very little overall to my knowledge even though the instructor was good.

GSP did nothing in your opinion? he took several solid clean punches from a heavy handed opponent…you have no idea what you are talking about.

Watch the video and see how they finished up. GSP is lying on his back with Serra standing over him with his legs spread apart and GSP’ feet resting against Serra’s groin but he didn’t kick him in the nuts. He might have been too out of it, but it looked like he still had some of his senses, if he did he should have blasted him.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4ywgh_st-pierre-serra_sport

Your talking about people shooting through the punches of kicboxers…I’m sorry the juries in on that one…Maurice Smith, Semmy Schilt, Ramon Dekkers…all world clss kickboxers…all taken down. Your arguing a point that has
been proven wrong over and over again.

The jurie is in that you can dive into a punch or elbow or kick or knee to the head and not get knocked out??? You are deusional if you think a solid blow to the head can’t knock someone out. Especially if you run into it.

I am not suggesting you can’t take someone down. Or that someone can’t be effective at takedowns. You on the other hand are in delusional suggesting that takedowns can’t be countered. Or suggesting that there aren’t fighters who are good at countering takedowns.

What you need to do is get some fighting experience. If you get experience you will learn that there are very few if any techniques that are surefire going to do what you want them to do everytime.

This post of yours was ridiculous.

OMC

What the hell is wrong with you? I’m an exponent of kenpo you muppet NOT Tae Kwon do [/quote]

A muppet. That’s funny you gave me a laugh. Thanks.

Sorry I offended you. You are certainly more open minded and reasonable than Cali.

106

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Sifu wrote: Instead you want to pretend tournaments are the real world. Fuck you.

What is the “real world”? Everyone talks about “the streets” or the “real world” as if people don’t use BJJ in “the streets” or the “real world.”

You think people rolling at Royler’s or Rickson’s or Renzo’s don’t get into fights? Get real, man.

In BJJ, we don’t talk about “the streets” or “self defense.” We don’t point spar or say, “We can’t do this move because it’s too dangerous.”

We make an effort to break the limbs of fully-resisting opponents. We try to choke people into unconsciousness. If you cannot see why that approach is superior, then keep doing your katas and throwing your air karate chops. At least if you’re in the dojo, you’re not creating havoc in “the streets.”[/quote]

You are wrong on this.

I’m not launching into my normal dissertation about this because I’ve done it before and I’m sure you’ve read it.

But I suggest you go look up people like Loren Christensen and Marc Macyoung. Christensen is a practitioner of Gojuryu, and was a cop for years also. TMA’s end up being adpatable to the street, and for you to say that they aren’t simply because they don’t work in a ring with rules is kind of ignorant.

Both studied and respect TMA’s, especially with regards to use in streetfighting.

107

[quote]Sifu wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Based on Sifu’s posts, it’s pretty clear that he loses control over his emotions. Too much TMA mysticism will do that to you. You become like a raging religious lunatic.

No it’s the Irish alcoholic boxing rage.[/quote]

That’s mine. You can’t have it.

108

I really hate how people think that BJJ is the be all end all for self-defense.

I love rolling, and it has value should you be placed on the ground, but no one should aim to end up on the ground during any altercation in the street.

There’s gonna be a whole lot of hospitals filled with Affliction wearing badasses after they get curbed by someone’s boot grappling.

We all know my affinity for boxing. Although I agree with Sifu that it’s an incomplete art because it’s only hands, I will take a decent boxer in a fight anywhere against anyone out in the street.

This post is brought to you by another superhuman training video of Floyd Mayweather: - YouTube

109

[quote]NDM wrote:
Sifu wrote:
NDM wrote:
Sifu wrote:
We had another black belt from our group who was a cop in Windsor Canada which is a really safe city with no violent crime. He died from a knife to the chest.

Uhhh, when did this happen? Windsor is a safe city compared to Detroit, but it still does have it’s violent crime. A cop was killed a few years ago. A knife was not involved though…

What area in the D are you training in?

I can’t remember exactly because it has been about ten years give or take. Windsor is a safe city unless you are a black cop answering a domestic disturbance at a racists house.

Eastside.

I’m pretty sure this never happened. I’ll ask my buddy, who has been a Windsor cop for the last 16 years.
[/quote]

You think I would just make some shit like that up? It was in the news. Go look it up in the library. [quote]

Your second point is way off.
[/quote]

How would you know where I train?

110

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Based on Sifu’s posts, it’s pretty clear that he loses control over his emotions. Too much TMA mysticism will do that to you. You become like a raging religious lunatic.

No it’s the Irish alcoholic boxing rage.

That’s mine. You can’t have it.[/quote]

You can have it I gave up drinking years ago.

111

[quote]Sifu wrote:
If you want to close why don’t you think other sytems wouldn’t want to do the same thing. Besides from what I have seen of Kenpo it uses locked out elbows for some techniques, that’s not something you want to do in close.

You said that because some good kickboxers got taken down it proves kickboxers can’t stop take downs. So now you want to change it to they can’t stop a takedown if they can’t hit you.

I would say it’s self evident that if something doesn’t hit you it won’t affect you. But I would also say that it is self evident that if something hits you it can affect you. Seeing how you have to hit at least hip height to take down I don’t see why one could’nt strike that low.

I figured you already knew those counters. In order to get your face pressed against your opponent you have to close the distance first. You need to explain why someone can’t get caught coming in. It just can’t happen is not an explanation.

Thinking that their techniques are unbeatable is usually a sign of an inexperienced fighter. If you have been fighting you should know that things don’t always work the way you think they should. I wouldn’t say that anything I have suggested as counters would be infallible, guaranteed to work every time.

Sorry I offended you. You are certainly more open minded and reasonable than Cali. [/quote]

Firstly I want to get close enough to use my elbows…not fully extend them. If you are close enough that fully extending your arms is a problem you are using the wrong weapon. or you should switch to a more compact punch like an uppercut.

Secondly I NEVER said kickboxers can’t stop takedowns…look at Crocop. He didn’t get that sprawl from kickboxing though. Striking is not a good takedown defense…this is what has been proven over and over again.

A kickboxer can defend a takedown if he’s shown how to sprawl and wrestle not how to pinpoint a punch or kick to catch the person shooting in. Takedowns simply happen much quicker than you seem willing to accept.

I never said you can’t get caught coming in rather I mentioned the scenarios in which it has happened…none of which are in your control. Again…misdirection + takedown = on your ass

I am not offended as much as frustrated that you would not consider the negatives of your own advice. I have no problem saying that takedowns are far from ideal if there is a visible weapon or a multiple attacker situation.

Your reccomendations of neck breaks and eye pokes however come with nasty side effects such as not being able to breakfall on a hard surface. Quite simply they put the performer in greater danger. My techniques are not infallible but they’re a hell of a lot closer than those you have listed and are simply a higher percentage success move.

By the way Kenpo usually uses a mixture of vertical and horizontal punches. Look around on youtube…if you have trouble finding the stuff I’ll link it.

OMC

112

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I really hate how people think that BJJ is the be all end all for self-defense.

I love rolling, and it has value should you be placed on the ground, but no one should aim to end up on the ground during any altercation in the street.

There’s gonna be a whole lot of hospitals filled with Affliction wearing badasses after they get curbed by someone’s boot grappling.

We all know my affinity for boxing. Although I agree with Sifu that it’s an incomplete art because it’s only hands, I will take a decent boxer in a fight anywhere against anyone out in the street.

This post is brought to you by another superhuman training video of Floyd Mayweather: - YouTube
[/quote]

Love that highlight…added it to favourites a few weeks ago. Did you notice how when training the heavy bag with his jab he squared his shoulders a lot more…seems to becoming a more and more popular stance with top level boxers.

113

[quote]Sifu wrote:
NDM wrote:
Sifu wrote:
NDM wrote:
Sifu wrote:
We had another black belt from our group who was a cop in Windsor Canada which is a really safe city with no violent crime. He died from a knife to the chest.

Uhhh, when did this happen? Windsor is a safe city compared to Detroit, but it still does have it’s violent crime. A cop was killed a few years ago. A knife was not involved though…

What area in the D are you training in?

I can’t remember exactly because it has been about ten years give or take. Windsor is a safe city unless you are a black cop answering a domestic disturbance at a racists house.

Eastside.

I’m pretty sure this never happened. I’ll ask my buddy, who has been a Windsor cop for the last 16 years.

You think I would just make some shit like that up? It was in the news. Go look it up in the library.

Your second point is way off.

How would you know where I train?[/quote]

I don’t know if you made it up. I don’t have to look it up in the library. I’ve lived in the Windsor area for more than 20 years. I’ve never heard this story.

The second point I was referring to was your comment about black cops at domestic disturbance calls. I don’t know what made you have that belief. I’ve never heard of this being an issue, either.

I don’t know where you train, nor would I question it. What is in question right now is your credibility. You make claims regarding MMA/TMA that are just as outrageous as your claims about Windsor and it’s police officers.

114

[quote]OMC wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I really hate how people think that BJJ is the be all end all for self-defense.

I love rolling, and it has value should you be placed on the ground, but no one should aim to end up on the ground during any altercation in the street.

There’s gonna be a whole lot of hospitals filled with Affliction wearing badasses after they get curbed by someone’s boot grappling.

We all know my affinity for boxing. Although I agree with Sifu that it’s an incomplete art because it’s only hands, I will take a decent boxer in a fight anywhere against anyone out in the street.

This post is brought to you by another superhuman training video of Floyd Mayweather: - YouTube

Love that highlight…added it to favourites a few weeks ago. Did you notice how when training the heavy bag with his jab he squared his shoulders a lot more…seems to becoming a more and more popular stance with top level boxers.

[/quote]

I don’t think he’s really training his jab on the bag, I think it’s more just fighting two handed. When Floyd gets in close he will square up and start swinging with both hands, including short left hooks and straight lefts that aren’t really jabs. Just what I see.

I always thought that shadowboxing helped my jab way more than the heavy bag because it gets your speed and footwork going for a shot that oftentimes misses but still serves as a setup.

115

[quote]Sifu wrote:

I wouldn’t say anything is guaranteed to incapacitate someone, but some things are more likely than others. ie I have a freind who was kicked so hard in the groin he lost a testicle. He stayed on his feet and was still able to function. Can everbody do that? My guess would be no.

Eyes are very delicate and they have their own nerves that connect directly to the brain. You sound like you have never been poked in the eye real bad. I’ve been kicked directy in the eye with a big toe hard enough that my nervous system shut down.

One moment I was standing there, I saw a toe then a flash of light and I just dropped to the floor. It didn’t hurt as much as I thought it would but the whole wooziness afterwards was awful it was like nothing else I have ever experienced.

You guys who think you can just suck it up and tough your way through an eye attack are delusional.

I once shattered a bone in my hand into so many pieces they couldn’t use anestetic when they set it. I would rather do that again that go through getting kicked in the eye. [/quote]

I think Loren Christensen has said that… there is no end all move for fighting, but if he had to say which one was closest, it was the eye gouge.

116

[quote]NDM wrote:
Sifu wrote:
NDM wrote:
Sifu wrote:
NDM wrote:
Sifu wrote:
We had another black belt from our group who was a cop in Windsor Canada which is a really safe city with no violent crime. He died from a knife to the chest.

Uhhh, when did this happen? Windsor is a safe city compared to Detroit, but it still does have it’s violent crime. A cop was killed a few years ago. A knife was not involved though…

What area in the D are you training in?

I can’t remember exactly because it has been about ten years give or take. Windsor is a safe city unless you are a black cop answering a domestic disturbance at a racists house.

Eastside.

I’m pretty sure this never happened. I’ll ask my buddy, who has been a Windsor cop for the last 16 years.

You think I would just make some shit like that up? It was in the news. Go look it up in the library.

Your second point is way off.

How would you know where I train?

I don’t know if you made it up. I don’t have to look it up in the library. I’ve lived in the Windsor area for more
than 20 years. I’ve never heard this story. [/quote]

Windsor is directly across the river and it has maybe 2 or 3 murders a year. A windsor cop getting killed does make the news. [quote]

The second point I was referring to was your comment about black cops at domestic disturbance calls. I don’t know what made you have that belief. I’ve never heard of this being an issue, either. [/quote]

I was not there so I can only recount what I have been told. The cop was black. The story I was told was he was at a house answering a domestic disturbance.

He was talking to the wife when the husband came into the room with a knife and stabbed him in the chest. Later when they questioned the husband he said he did it because he didn’t want a black man talking to his wife or words to that affect. [quote]

I don’t know where you train, nor would I question it. What is in question right now is your credibility. You make claims regarding MMA/TMA that are just as outrageous as your claims about Windsor and it’s police officers. [/quote]

What is not in question with you is you are anal retentive. I thought Californialaw was annoying because he’s so goddamned opinionated, probably because I haven’t had to deal with someone who is super anal in a while.

Now I am thinking Cali is not such a bad guy and I should have been nicer to him. So go have fun with your little fact finding mission.

117

[quote]Sifu wrote:
NDM wrote:
Sifu wrote:
NDM wrote:
Sifu wrote:
NDM wrote:
Sifu wrote:
We had another black belt from our group who was a cop in Windsor Canada which is a really safe city with no violent crime. He died from a knife to the chest.

Uhhh, when did this happen? Windsor is a safe city compared to Detroit, but it still does have it’s violent crime. A cop was killed a few years ago. A knife was not involved though…

What area in the D are you training in?

I can’t remember exactly because it has been about ten years give or take. Windsor is a safe city unless you are a black cop answering a domestic disturbance at a racists house.

Eastside.

I’m pretty sure this never happened. I’ll ask my buddy, who has been a Windsor cop for the last 16 years.

You think I would just make some shit like that up? It was in the news. Go look it up in the library.

Your second point is way off.

How would you know where I train?

I don’t know if you made it up. I don’t have to look it up in the library. I’ve lived in the Windsor area for more
than 20 years. I’ve never heard this story.

Windsor is directly across the river and it has maybe 2 or 3 murders a year. A windsor cop getting killed does make the news.

The second point I was referring to was your comment about black cops at domestic disturbance calls. I don’t know what made you have that belief. I’ve never heard of this being an issue, either.

I was not there so I can only recount what I have been told. The cop was black. The story I was told was he was at a house answering a domestic disturbance.

He was talking to the wife when the husband came into the room with a knife and stabbed him in the chest. Later when they questioned the husband he said he did it because he didn’t want a black man talking to his wife or words to that affect.

I don’t know where you train, nor would I question it. What is in question right now is your credibility. You make claims regarding MMA/TMA that are just as outrageous as your claims about Windsor and it’s police officers.

What is not in question with you is you are anal retentive. I thought Californialaw was annoying because he’s so goddamned opinionated, probably because I haven’t had to deal with someone who is super anal in a while. Now I am thinking Cali is not such a bad guy and I should have been nicer to him. So go have fun with your little fact finding mission. [/quote]

Yes, a cop in Windsor getting killed does make the news. The first, and only cop to be killed while on duty was in May of 2006 by a single gunshot.

http://www.reallygoodfriend.com/index.php?entry=entry060512-181220

The only relevance this has to the thread is that you promulgate incorrect information.

118

to the guy who asked about favorite takedowns/pins, i like the close single and cradle or a headlock and you walk it out to the side. really nice

119

Been reading the thread. Just amazes me. I’m a lifelong skeptic. I like to see evidence, not claims.

The evidence about BJJ has been in for decades. The shit is better than any TMA.

Then again, people still believe in George Dillman:
Dillman explains chi KO nullification - YouTube

What can ya do?

120

A person concerned with evidence instead of superstition would watch a few of these videos in YouTube:

Or you could keep living on Fantasy Island.