Jiu Jitsu Wrestling Takedowns

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote: And for self defense, it’s not practical. Going to the ground in a barfight is very dangerous.

I’ve been in enough fights to know that they usually will end up on the ground.

And bar fighting in itself is “very dangerous.” Using your logic, we should avoid bar fights.

I agree.

But since it’s a face that bar fights will usually end up on the ground, it makes the most sense to prepare for the ground.[/quote]

ons of fights stay standing. I would say most bar fights I have seen stay on their feet.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote: It is not. That’s a great fallacy based on an old model that was actually talking about incidents with cops and arrests. Because police must have leverage on a suspect (or whatever you would call the cat being arrested), their tendency was to go to the ground immediately to cuff the person.

I’ve been in dozens of street fights. I know where fights end up. My knowledge is not based on some arrest data or anything I’ve read or that someone has told me.

Most ended up on the ground. Which is where I didn’t want them to end up, since my training was TMA and boxing. But that’s where they’d end up.

At the time, I knew how to keep my distance, moving in an out. Which was often enough to lights out the guy before to the ground. But that’s still where most ended up. It would have been nice to have had some grappling back then. Though, who knows, I may have taken a guy down and killed him.

If I were to fight today, I would much rather use my boxing on the guy than my Judo or BJJ. It’s not even close. The odds of devastating someone are much, much, much greater using a throw or arm bar than throwing a punch or kick.

People have their own belief systems. Discussing martial arts is like talking about religion. You can show all the evidence in the world to guys that BJJ is superior, and people will still debate the issue. Like the grappler v. striker videos are all fake?

Or then that street fights do not end up on the ground?

People will do so much to reject the truth.

Much is superstition, but also much is that BJJ is hard. You roll against a resisting opponent. Every BJJ class smokes me. I leave drained. It’s by far the hardest workout I do.

Many would just rather kick air or do “forearm blocks” to each other.

You also test yourself constantly. Unlike Karate and other fake arts, you can’t say, “Oh, I am so bad ass. I just can’t prove it because my throat strikes will kill people.” Every day in the grappling gym you’re worth and place on the pecking order can be easily established.

Many are not able to deal with being humbled on a regular basis. And with BJJ, until you’ve been training for 5 or so years, you will regularly be humbled. There’s no bullshit or mysticism. Just bad-ass workouts and a chance to validate yourself daily.

I have always made it a point to live in the real, rational world. Hence, I train BJJ.

People will always go to “psychics,” and John Edward will sell books showing that he talks to the dead. All of this even though James Randi has proven that all of that is a scam.

Likewise, BJJ practitioners have proven that TMA is a scam. But dojos are still full. The “Dawn Davis Karate School” has way more students than my BJJ and MMA academies combined. Oh well.[/quote]

BJJ is a great art. It is, however, meant for sport. I don’t quite know where you were going with this post. Never did I say that it wasn’t valuable, or a good tool, or something that people should know. But it should not form the basis of self defense because of it’s nature of groundfighting.

I’ve seen my share of fights also. The majority were standing fights, with the only one that went to the ground being when I kind of charged a group, which was a good idea at the time but wasn’t in the long haul.

Rarely were any of them ever one on one fights after high school.

As I say, now and always, I’ll take a boxer in a streetfight any day against anyone. Not in an octagon, not in a Gracie match. In a fight where your goal is to hurt the guy and then be able to get away before you get beat on or arrested, striking and then booking is what you have to do.

You have your views, I have mine. I don’t believe yours are correct. No amount of bullshit blowing is going to make me think otherwise.

Hell, go look up fights on youtube. The stupid ass, innocuous looking ones between people that have NO IDEA how to fight or what technique or form are.

They are standing fights till someone gets pegged, and then they end up on the ground. Even then, they don’t end up in wrestling matches, they end up in ground n pounds where the kid who landed the shot is on top, often in full mount.

Many, many others are decided by guys on their feet. Boxers do very well because two hard hits and they put someone down- and then generally people bug out and don’t want to fight anymore.

BJJ is a tool to be used in the Octagon. As per self defense purposes, it is not the best. Far from it. It is simply another tool, and no more useful than a strong 1-2-3.

Irish:
I would be interested to hear your response to CLaw’s point about grappling’s advantage in higher intensity training.

[quote]Therizza wrote:
ok so who wins? a kenjutsu guy or a bjj guy[/quote]

When we start debating this on the internet, we all lose

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Hell, go look up fights on youtube. The stupid ass, innocuous looking ones between people that have NO IDEA how to fight or what technique or form are.

They are standing fights till someone gets pegged, and then they end up on the ground. Even then, they don’t end up in wrestling matches, they end up in ground n pounds where the kid who landed the shot is on top, often in full mount.

Many, many others are decided by guys on their feet. Boxers do very well because two hard hits and they put someone down- and then generally people bug out and don’t want to fight anymore.

BJJ is a tool to be used in the Octagon. As per self defense purposes, it is not the best. Far from it. It is simply another tool, and no more useful than a strong 1-2-3. [/quote]
There’s a lot to be learned from watching those videos. It is going to give you a skewed image because of the kind of fight that’s going to get posted, and the kind that someone has enough time to pull out a video camera. But, what interests me is the start of the fight. It’s usually one guy pushing the other around. Both are completely leaving their guard down, either one could just take a swing.

I really just think about it because its similar to the kind of fight I see myself getting in to, if that ever happens. I’ve never been in a real fight, and have no interest in starting one. What I see happening is some guy bigger than me (I’m 5’6" 150, so most guys) getting pissed off at me for whatever reason and trying to push me around. Twice this year I’ve been in a situation where I thought it might have to come to fighting. Both were me coming to the defense of women and “just walking away” wouldn’t have been an option. I was telling someone bigger than me what to do, and he may not have appreciated that. Luckily, both got resolved. One with cops.

I’m sick and tired of hearing 90% of all fights end on the ground.
Ridiculous. That goes especially for barfights.
But it also doesn’t help to lump all kinds of fights together. A barbrawl against a drunken asshole is a total different thing then going against young punks on the street who want to beat someone up that has a different skin colour.
Were you living in a warzone? Where did you pick up these fights which “ended” each time on the ground?

Is wrestling an important and integral part of martial arts? You bet.
BJJ an integral part of modern MMA? Yep!
The videos however, mean little:

It’s a modern style that had a lot of influence from streetfighting culture. Most other martial arts they competed against in various events were, often even unbeknownst to the instrucors, gelded over decades, atrophied to sports.

Mc Dojo Karate is useless against barroombrawlers, wrestlers and BJJ artists? Duh. Hardly news.

The Gracies knew a lot more about strikes and kicks (and how to avid them) then their opponents knew about shooting, clinch and
groundwork.

BJJ is a terrific sport and martial art and yet:

BJJ is the last thing you want to do in a barfight.
It’s completely useless against two+ attackers. Even a year of boxing or Kyokushinkai will gave you an good chance to deal with two chumps, while a godlike BJJ technician will be fairly defenseless. Young assholes who want to pick up a fight are usually not alone.

Also: there is little real TMA alive today. If you pick on modern olympic Tae Kwon Do for example, it’s funny because it’s not traitional at all- it’s about as old as BJJ.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
I’m sick and tired of hearing 90% of all fights end on the ground.
Ridiculous. That goes especially for barfights.
But it also doesn’t help to lump all kinds of fights together. A barbrawl against a drunken asshole is a total different thing then going against young punks on the street who want to beat someone up that has a different skin colour.
Were you living in a warzone? Where did you pick up these fights which “ended” each time on the ground?

Is wrestling an important and integral part of martial arts? You bet.
BJJ an integral part of modern MMA? Yep!
The videos however, mean little:

It’s a modern style that had a lot of influence from streetfighting culture. Most other martial arts they competed against in various events were, often even unbeknownst to the instrucors, gelded over decades, atrophied to sports.

Mc Dojo Karate is useless against barroombrawlers, wrestlers and BJJ artists? Duh. Hardly news.

The Gracies knew a lot more about strikes and kicks (and how to avid them) then their opponents knew about shooting, clinch and
groundwork.

BJJ is a terrific sport and martial art and yet:

BJJ is the last thing you want to do in a barfight.
It’s completely useless against two+ attackers. Even a year of boxing or Kyokushinkai will gave you an good chance to deal with two chumps, while a godlike BJJ technician will be fairly defenseless. Young assholes who want to pick up a fight are usually not alone.

Also: there is little real TMA alive today. If you pick on modern olympic Tae Kwon Do for example, it’s funny because it’s not traitional at all- it’s about as old as BJJ.
[/quote]

Good post, all around. Exactly what I say all around.

[quote]No-Gi wrote:
Irish:
I would be interested to hear your response to CLaw’s point about grappling’s advantage in higher intensity training.[/quote]

Compared to a TMA, BJJ is way more exhausting. And he’s right- you’re moving against a resisting, most likely just as strong as you opponent. All valid points. The only workout I had that was equal as far as intensity is boxing, which makes sense because it’s the same type of thing. You’re banging on heavy bag or doing padwork, ducking and moving, and it’s just as tiring. Both of these sports have mastered the art of conserving your breath, and taking breaks when it looks like you aren’t. They both blow you out.

However, how in shape you are isn’t a huge part of self-defense. People differ on this, of course, and I lift and do all kinds of other things because I think it would benefit me in such a situation.

The thing is, you never know who you’ll cross in the real world. There’s guys who are corporate execs or work on computers… who are former Navy SEALS and train in Escrima (Yes, real example). There’s guys who work on loading docks who were golden gloves boxers in the Army. There’s guys who are in the Mafia who will just shoot you.

I remember seeing a fight once when I was younger where a black guy was getting into a brawl with a couple of other guys. The black kid was a boxer, or had some experience with boxing, and was swinging for the fences trying to defend himself. He struck a guido friend of mine, who is about Danny DeVito’s size and shape, in the mouth and split his lip. So my buddy grabbed a cue ball that someone had shove in a sock and cracked the kid in the face with it. That kid got stomped.

Physical conditioning, though important in my eyes, isn’t the be all end all. Oftentimes brutality, and a willingness to go farther in violence then the person you’re fighting, is what wins. Shit also lands you in jail.

By the way, BJJ is not useless- the standing grappling moves are excellent also. A friend of mine who was in Afghanistan taught me the figure-4 lock years ago, and I’ve used it ever since. It’s my favorite grappling move because it’s so goddamn easy and effective. I once had nearly every tendon in my forearm torn out when I wouldn’t give up on a figure-4 lock and the guy kept wrenching it down. Took me a year to throw a baseball again.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Sifu wrote:

here are some other vids.

Did you ever notice that the guys on the video are always doing their magical techniques on their students? Might there be a reason for that? [/quote]

Do you mean like how in the Gracie insider video you posted three pages back, he was demonstrating with another member of the family. The difference between me and you is I don’t talk shit about a teacher using what I recognize as a standard teaching method. I can recognize something that might be useful, that’s why I bookmarked the Gracie insider profile page. Thanks.

I gave you a hook up on someone who genuinely has good knowledge, but you are so full of your predjudice that you can’t recognize someone good. It is your loss.

If you listen to those videos you can hear when he hits someone. He isn’t doing some voodoo death blow from across the room without touching someone.

Your problem Cali is you are too used to seeing guys who are all buffed up from lifting weights and taking steroids who have to physically unload on someone to hurt them. When you see someone who uses technique you can’t believe that it can affect anyone because it looks effortless. [quote]

The power of belief is strong. Dillman’s student believe in that bullshit, so they literally do fall down by the “death touch.”

Where are the videos of your sensi/master doing those techniques to someone who is not part of the cult? How about in a real fight against a resisting opponent?

Case closed.[/quote]

If you don’t think someone has something to teach don’t study with them. Frankly I think you are way too hung up on competition. If you think the only way to each is by fighting that is your loss. There are lots of older masters out there who have great knowledge.

One thing I see in your posts Cali is you have no respect. I think if you had a chance to get private lessons with Helio Gracie you would have an attitude and not learn very much or it would end up with one of his great grandsons having to put a beatdown on you.

honestly, in a fight with multiple attackers, i would have to say that any ground style is a no go. i dont want to get my face smashed with 2 other guys boots when engaging one target.

simple attack, effective.

[quote]slimjim wrote:
Ahahaha, you got sucked in CLaw…sucker![/quote]

LOL. Nah. I know I won’t persuade any of these guys’ minds. But lots of people lurk. Hopefully some kid out there has read this thread and now realizes he shouldn’t waste him time on TMA, and instead should train grappling.

My logic was devastating. There will always be people who will choose the mystical over the rational. I hope some lurkers here now have enough information to make the only rational choice.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

The best tactic in the street for groundfighting is getting the fuck back on your feet.

[/quote]
Words of wisdom.

OMC

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
slimjim wrote:
Ahahaha, you got sucked in CLaw…sucker!

LOL. Nah. I know I won’t persuade any of these guys’ minds. But lots of people lurk. Hopefully some kid out there has read this thread and now realizes he shouldn’t waste him time on TMA, and instead should train grappling.

My logic was devastating. There will always be people who will choose the mystical over the rational. I hope some lurkers here now have enough information to make the only rational choice.

Honestly, how am I being irrational by saying that a striking art is better? Especially because it’s well known that I think things like boxing or Krav Maga are by far the best things for self-defense.

Your logic is far from devastating. It’s based on the greatest myth of the last ten years- that grappling will serve you well in self-defense.

I hope you’re there to pick up the teeth of the people that choose to listen to your “devastating logic.”

And I mean this with no disrespect, I simply don’t agree. You’re allowed your view on it as I am mine.[/quote]

Well, I disagree with all of you completely, the best self defence in my opinion is sprinting…everybody better learn how to do that well if they want to truly learn how to survive.

What, no one wants to play anymore? How about ninjitsu? Using a smoke bomb to make your getaway could really trump sprinting. All of you advocating strikes are putting your ass in danger of getting hit…the ninja warrior disappears into the night

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
My logic is devastating!
My rationality is impetiuous!
My guard is impregnable!

Praise be to MMAh!
[/quote]
Mike?..