[quote]OMC wrote:
Sifu wrote:
First you have to get a person off of their feet. When you are coming in with your arms outreached going for a leg to grab your head and neck are wide open. There are some vital target areas in the head and neck.
Anytime you are moving forwards towards an opponent you have a thing called “forward momentum”. If a person happens to put a knee in the way of your face as you are diving in you have the combined momentum.
In my school we call that walking or running into something. If you run into a strike it can be very devastating because of that combined momentum.
Shooting you fingers into someones eyes is not impossible when they are real close to you and they don’t have their hands up guarding their head. It does not take much either. The throat doesn’t take much either.
Even if someone does get you off of your feet there are things you can do that you don’t need to be on your feet for. Also while your opponent is hugging your leg that atcts as a stabilisation. If I grab your head and go for a neck break while you are hugging my leg you are going to stabilise your body from twisting with your head.
Ok I agree with a lot of what you said but what I didn’t agree with, I’m not gonna bother with. The above is the exception as it has to do with takedowns which is on topic.
Everything about this post tells me that you have a very limited knowledge of this range of combat. [/quote]
I have told you some of what I have studied. I have told you it is an in-fighting system. In-fighting is a common martial arts term which you seem not to understand.
You come across as a Tae Kwon Do guy who thinks TKD is definitive and there is nothing better except MMA. Then I read further and I see that you did waste your time with TKD. Isshinryu is not commonly practiced over in Europe so I can’t fault you for not knowing anything about it, like a lot of guys on this board.
I don’t mean to go on about the primary system I have studied but obviously you have some extreme false assumptions based upon what you do know, where you see some similarity so you just assume it’s all the same. The Isshinryu system is based upon close in fighting, much coser than TKD and even closer than Kenpo.
This is why we do not use the traditional, horizontal fist, elbow rotated out and locked out, corksrew punch which is ubiquitous to TKD, Kenpo and virtually all other traditional systems with the exception of Wing Chun, another “In-fighting” system.
In Isshinryu we break with tradition in our punching. First our punches do not go to %100 extension with the elbow locked out we go to %90 extension with the elbow not locked and pointing down, instead of rotated out to the side leaving the fist in a nearly verticle position instead of horizontal. Then instead of leaving the arm locked out like traditional systems we snap it back immediately.
Why do we break with tradition and punch differently? There are a number of reasons, the most important of which is because we want to be closer than other systems. So close in fact that grappling is a part of our system. Our punching style is a counter grappling style of punching. Because the traditional corkscrew punch with the elbow rotated out and locked leaves the arm vulnerable to an arm bar or hyperextension. Keeping the elbow down and unlocked protects the elbow. Snapping the punch back instead of locking out the elbow makes it harder to get ahold of the arm in order to grapple. It also makes it easier to follow up with rapid fire punching.
The punching is just one aspect of the art that is meant for counter grappling, but it is not the only. We have a lot of counter grappling techniques. We also have grappling and take down techniques.
Then there is our kicking which normally does not go above the waist. We use kicking in close for taking the legs out or kicking to the groin. We also snap our kicks and use %90 extension so we don’t get our legs trapped.
The Chin Na that I have studied is a Chinese grappling art. Arnis also had grappling. So you are very wrong to say I am not familiar with this range of fighting.
Another reason why we break with tradition is because Isshinryu founder Tatsuo Shimabuku was a non-traditionalist. As exemplified by his explanation of his fifth code of Karate “The body should be able to change Direction at any time” means “Times change go with the times”. Shimabuku meant his art to be an evolving art.
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There is a difference between having a partner stand in front of you “diving in” over and over again and having to deal with a live opponent who is throwing power punches when suddenly out of the blue he changes levels, takes your legs out from under you, slams you on the pavement (if your lucky knocking the wind out of you or hitting your head off the ground if your unlucky), passing to sidecontrol and then to knee ride were he begins raining down blows of punches and elbows…of course you are going to go for the nearest vulnerable target (the groin), thus exposing your head which is under heavy offensive fire. You will be pounded out. [/quote]
There is also a difference between a fighter who will take a target of opportunity and one who will play by a set of rules that gets him took out. ie GSP lying on his back doing nothing while Matt Serra knocked him out. [quote]
The above is a very basic and VERY easy situation for a martial artist trained with takedowns to achieve. The best you as the takedown defender can hope to achieve is obtaining a front headlock or guillotine if you are trained ((of course if you don’t plan on trying to break you attackers neck or gouging his eye you may choose to sprawl mash his face into the ground and obtain dominant position)). The front headlock is nullified by passing to side control were a simple crossface will break the grip and also negate the possibilities of bitting ears etc from the bottom. There is no time or oppertunity to go for eyes, obtaining the necessary hand positions to hyper rotate the neck (which stops you break falling). The only realistic scenario you mentioned is colliding with a knee. This is allowed in MMA and has happened on very rare occasions as a result of numerous failed takedown attempts previous, and therefore no element of surprise or as a result of a flying knee being initiated at exactly the same time and of course flying knees are the “in” thing in street fights these days right??? 
Look its perfectly normal as a TMA to not have everything covered…[/quote]
Sure that is why I have a least taken the time to watch some Gracie and Sambo videos so I have a better understanding of what I am seeing when I watch UFC and Pride.
Even if something isn’t foolproof it makes sense to have options in your skillset. When I was a teenager I had a friend who was a state champion wrestler. The way he handled me in a wrestling match reminded me of my mom folding up laundry. It was grab, flip, flop, done. So I do know what it is like to be humbled by a skilled wrestler.
[quote]
thats why there are bad style matchups. BJJ just happens to match up well against most stand up based arts. You never saw the gracies dojo challenge wrestlers did you? No it was kung fu (that tool Jason Delucia), Kenpo (a retarded instructor of it), tae kwon do etc… [/quote]
I’ve watched videos of some of those Gracie dojo challenge fights. The Gracies have some good stuff. They remind me of what our grandmaster said about Ju Jitsu people, “If they can get ahold of you they can kill you”. I wouldn’t diss the Gracies they have a great reputation. However some of the guys I have seen them match up against I would hardly call exemplarary. Especially when it comes to angular movement, which is what you need to keep any fighter off of you let alone a Gracie who is going to tie you up like a pretzel if he gets ahold of you. [quote]
My own evolution has gone like this
Kenpo–[/quote] Depending on the teacher possibly a good start. [quote]
Taekwon do–[/quote] After Kenpo??? You must have had a really bad Kenpo teacher or a really good TKD teacher or both or moved. [quote]
Boxing–[/quote] Boxing’s good but you aren’t going to learn transitioning into grappling or some other important skills. But I do have respect for boxers. [quote]
Western Kickboxing-- [/quote]My teachers have trained with and fought some of the best world champions. So this is not something that is foreign to us. Joe Lewis had a great reputation, his Shorinryu teacher was Eizo Shimabuku who is the younger brother and student of Tatsuo Shimabuku. One of my teachers told me Lewis’ side kick was the hardest kick he has ever been hit with and that is saying a lot because he has fought some heavy hitters. Even a Gracie would not want to run into one of those trying to get a takedown.
There are people like Lewis or Bill Wallace who can take you out with one shot. You cannot take it for granted that you can just take a shot coming in on someone and survive it. That street fighter take a shot to give a shot strategy does not always work. Yet some of the guys here are predicating their arguements upon the idea that they can take a shot from anybody. [quote]
Muay Thai–[/quote] In a lot of ways Isshinryu fights like Muay Thai. We use lots of elbows, knees. Some things we do different: we bring our knees in to guard our groin, our roundhouse we don’t throw our guard down to generate torque instead we keep a guard. In fact we try to keep guard with all kicks instead of flailing our hands around to try and keep balance like a lot of other styles do. [quote]
BJJ–Wrestling.
I teach Kenpo, Boxing and freestyle kickboxing and picked up the BJJ/Wrestling after I exchanged knowledge with a wrestler I instructed in standup. I saw the weaknesses in my own skill set and took the necessary steps to rectify them. You should look into doing the same.
OMC[/quote]
I have no problem with expanding my skillset. Injuries, money and time are a problem, but I study what I can.
