It Might Be Time to Split

Training Bodybuilding
1

key word: might.

so, i realize it’s hugely unpopular around here to do total body workouts. i couldn’t care less. i’ve gotten my best results with them, so that’s what i usually do. anyway, on to my point.

i’ve recently started to experience what i can only describe as joint pain… primarily in the elbows and wrists. i know that this can be an unwelcome side effect of such a high frequency of training, and am simply wondering if anyone has experienced this type of thing before, and how they dealt with it.

i’m really only assuming that this pain is being caused by my training schedule, as i’ve read about this type of thing being fairly common when training exceeds the 3x or 4x per week mark.

as such, possible solutions that i’ve come up with so far include:
a.) doing a total body workout every other day instead of every day
b.) moving to a two way split (most likely lower/upper) and still training every day
c.) getting a new hobby (just kidding)

any constructive comments are welcome.

key word: constructive.

2

You were doing total body workouts every day? What in your mind decided to do that? No wonder…

[quote]i’m really only assuming that this pain is being caused by my training schedule, as i’ve read about this type of thing being fairly common when training exceeds the 3x or 4x per week mark.
[/quote]
Your assumption is right. Conclusion, you’re not training smart. And fairly common when training more than 3 a 4 times per week? If you do presses 4 times a week you’re setting yourself up for a shoulder injury, for example.

Key words: smart training. Rotate exercises and training in such a way that you’re able to recover and minimize the risk of injury.

3

Move to an upper/lower or even a push/pull/lower variation. Numbers indicate exercises:

Day 1: Chest x 2, Back x 2, Shoulders x 2, Biceps x 1, Triceps x 1
Day 2: Quads x 3, Hammies x 2, Calves x 1
Day 3: OFF…if you want to workout then do some sprints.
Day 4: Repeat cycle.

Or:

Day 1: Chest x 2, Shoulders x 2, Triceps x 2
Day 2: Quads x 3, Hammies x 2, Calves x 1
Day 3: Back x 4, Biceps x 2
Day 4: Off…or go do some sprints or whatever
Day 5: Repeat cycle.

Both ways you’ll hit each muscle group twice in a 8 day period. The 2nd option actually allows for more SETS per muscle group in that same time span.

Alan

4

[quote]BantamRunner wrote:
Move to an upper/lower or even a push/pull/lower variation. Numbers indicate exercises:

Day 1: Chest x 2, Back x 2, Shoulders x 2, Biceps x 1, Triceps x 1
Day 2: Quads x 3, Hammies x 2, Calves x 1
Day 3: OFF…if you want to workout then do some sprints.
Day 4: Repeat cycle.

Or:

Day 1: Chest x 2, Shoulders x 2, Triceps x 2
Day 2: Quads x 3, Hammies x 2, Calves x 1
Day 3: Back x 4, Biceps x 2
Day 4: Off…or go do some sprints or whatever
Day 5: Repeat cycle.

Both ways you’ll hit each muscle group twice in a 8 day period. The 2nd option actually allows for more SETS per muscle group in that same time span.

Alan

[/quote]
Just wanted to say that I have used/use the second option with good results, even though I use half the exercises you listed, because of the higher frequency.

Also, I could never do sprints the day after leg work.
Not saying it can’t be done, but usually the day after leg work I’m walking like Jasmin St. Claire after a gang bang.

5

[quote]joe shumsky wrote:
a.) doing a total body workout every other day instead of every day
[/quote]

I am genuinely interested to hear what exactly you do on a normal gym day if you are doing TBT every day.

6

You need to recover.

Hitting all body parts almost every day will lead you on the path to chronic pain and muscle disintegration!

3x a week, take in more GOOD fats, and get some sleep too while your at it(8 solid hrs).

7

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]joe shumsky wrote:
a.) doing a total body workout every other day instead of every day
[/quote]

I am genuinely interested to hear what exactly you do on a normal gym day if you are doing TBT every day.[/quote]

Joel Marion’s “Stripped Down Hypertrophy” program has you training full body 5 days a week. CT said he liked that program.

Still seems WAY too much if you ask me.

8

[quote]knee-gro wrote:

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]joe shumsky wrote:
a.) doing a total body workout every other day instead of every day
[/quote]

I am genuinely interested to hear what exactly you do on a normal gym day if you are doing TBT every day.[/quote]

Joel Marion’s “Stripped Down Hypertrophy” program has you training full body 5 days a week. CT said he liked that program.

Still seems WAY too much if you ask me.
[/quote]

What gets me is that this kind of programming is simply completely unnecessary, no matter what your goals are… There is literally nothing you can achieve that way which can’t be achieved with a less extreme approach.

I don’t deny that it can get you nice results, mind you (at least for a time, that’s not something I’d use as my main approach)… I just don’t see the point of all the extra load on joints and tendons which doesn’t actually get anything positive accomplished.

9

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]knee-gro wrote:

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]joe shumsky wrote:
a.) doing a total body workout every other day instead of every day
[/quote]

I am genuinely interested to hear what exactly you do on a normal gym day if you are doing TBT every day.[/quote]

Joel Marion’s “Stripped Down Hypertrophy” program has you training full body 5 days a week. CT said he liked that program.

Still seems WAY too much if you ask me.
[/quote]

What gets me is that this kind of programming is simply completely unnecessary, no matter what your goals are… There is literally nothing you can achieve that way which can’t be achieved with a less extreme approach.

I don’t deny that it can get you nice results, mind you (at least for a time, that’s not something I’d use as my main approach)… I just don’t see the point of all the extra load on joints and tendons which doesn’t actually get anything positive accomplished.
[/quote]

I’m one the few around here that believes TBT can give you some great results, based on my own experience, but come on. 5 days straight training full body with SIX compound movements each workout, and I sure as hell would be ready to call the Amber Lamps by Wednesday.

Note: Amber Lamps mean Ambulance, forget about it or check this out (unrelated to training):

10

first of all, thank you for your comments. i’d like to briefly address them:

tatsu, i’ve been training in this manner for quite some time… and this is the first time i’ve really ever experienced any sort of chronic joint issue. and, f.y.i., i’ve tried many different systems over the years… everything from superslow (the epitome of low frequency training) to what i’m doing now (the epitome of high frequency training)… and, like i said, i’ve gotten the best results training each muscle/exercise as frequently as possible. and, for me, that means daily.

to answer your question, i guess i probably first got the idea to train with an abnormally high frequency from the old hst protocol. Chad Waterbury eventually picked up on this idea and even recommended it in many of his articles. if anything, maybe i was a bit overzealous and should back off a bit sporadically? i don’t know.

at any rate, i fail to see how training with the system that’s always brought me the best progress can be considered not training “smart”. just sayin.

11

bantam runner, i was definitely thinking something along those lines if i decide to go lower/upper. thanks for the advice.

12

doubleh, obviously some variety over time is to be expected… and a good portion of the stuff i do are cable exercises of my own design… but i’ll try to explain them and give you the meat and potatoes of it:

clean and jerk
jump
c. muscle up
c. chest press
c. row
c. incline press
c. incline pulldown
c. decline press
c. decline row
calves
abs
neck
forearms

c.= cable
the main exercises are done for multiple sets of low reps
the calf, ab, neck, and forearm stuff is done for single sets of high reps

that’s pretty much it. after the issue began to develop, i’ve been attempting to vary the intensity of the sessions i.e. light, medium, hard… but it doesn’t seem to be helping. i’ve basically been splitting it up out of necessity (if i notice the problem starts to manifest itself during the beginning of the workout, the part that involves the lower body, i’ll stop after the c. muscle up and do the “upper body” stuff the next day.)

13

sarevok, you might be right. i have been thinking that, instead of splitting, maybe i should just train every other day instead. that’s how they used to do it in the old days, after all… good enough for them, good enough for me.

14

cepahalic carnage, i totally agree with you in the sense that i am starting to feel some of the deleterious effects of training so frequently. but, like i said, i’ve tried so many different programs over the years, spanning the whole spectrum of frequency, volume, intensity, density, etc… and i will re-iterate that i “look” the best using this type of approach. and, until recently, i’ve felt totally fine. as looking my best is my goal (tragically vain and shallow as it may be) i don’t consider the best method i’ve found thus far to be “unnecessary”… as all of the less “extreme” methods i’ve tried have always led to me looking “not as good”. maybe i just need to find a way to tweak it somewhat… regardless, i do appreciate your input.

15

kneegro, i can totally see your point here… i definitely had to work my way up to it. but, after doing this for some time, i can honestly say that i’ve improved my work capacity immensely. trust me, after doing multiple sets of clean and jerks, everything seems easy in comparison… up to and including “leg day”.

16

[quote]joe shumsky wrote:
first of all, thank you for your comments. i’d like to briefly address them:

tatsu, i’ve been training in this manner for quite some time… and this is the first time i’ve really ever experienced any sort of chronic joint issue. and, f.y.i., i’ve tried many different systems over the years… everything from superslow (the epitome of low frequency training) to what i’m doing now (the epitome of high frequency training)… and, like i said, i’ve gotten the best results training each muscle/exercise as frequently as possible. and, for me, that means daily.

to answer your question, i guess i probably first got the idea to train with an abnormally high frequency from the old hst protocol. Chad Waterbury eventually picked up on this idea and even recommended it in many of his articles. if anything, maybe i was a bit overzealous and should back off a bit sporadically? i don’t know.

at any rate, i fail to see how training with the system that’s always brought me the best progress can be considered not training “smart”. just sayin.

[/quote]

That’s easy. As explained before, joints/tendons don’t have much of a blood-supply/metabolism, so they will not be able to recover and adapt anywhere as fast as your muscles. Eventually, you will wear them down, especially with this kind of loading/frequency, and they will simply never get a chance to really recover fully and adapt well enough (or they’ll adapt in ways that will more or less cripple you…).

The stronger you get, the more you will wear them down…
Squatting 600 3-6 days a week (and then doing more big stuff on top of that… Ton of stress on the elbows, shoulders, wrists in particular, knees…) is not usually a good idea if longevity matters to you in any way. Olympic weight-lifters may do some crazy stuff, but their coaches, especially in countries such as China and former eastern Germany etc don’t exactly care whether the athlete can still stand up straight in his forties… They won’t even see the athlete again after his competition days. And if some get injured earlier, they have a steady supply of fresh blood to make up for any losses. Plus most of the lifts those lifters do stress the body in much different ways than other strength training lifts…

17

[quote]joe shumsky wrote:
cepahalic carnage, i totally agree with you in the sense that i am starting to feel some of the deleterious effects of training so frequently. but, like i said, i’ve tried so many different programs over the years, spanning the whole spectrum of frequency, volume, intensity, density, etc… and i will re-iterate that i “look” the best using this type of approach. and, until recently, i’ve felt totally fine. as looking my best is my goal (tragically vain and shallow as it may be) i don’t consider the best method i’ve found thus far to be “unnecessary”… as all of the less “extreme” methods i’ve tried have always led to me looking “not as good”. maybe i just need to find a way to tweak it somewhat… regardless, i do appreciate your input.[/quote]

For how long have you been training, and what size and strength levels have you reached?

Chances are that if you could not match the results you got from what you’re doing with something less crazy, then what you were previously doing failed due to inadequate programming, diet, rest, whatever.
A “bbing split” where chest day has you do bench 4x8-12 (straight weight), incline 4x8-12(straight weight again), etc won’t get anyone far unless they rely on anabolics for their strength gains… And even then, it’s hardly optimal. But it’s also a misinterpretation of what bodybuilding routines usually are like, as few pros go with the same weight for all sets etc (though those who rely on low reps will likely do more than one top set per exercise).

We might be able to help you, but first you need to take time off, let your joints and tendons heal and inflammation disappear…

18

Could you give us the weights that you are using on these “TBT everyday” sessions. There’s nothing wrong with TBT, in fact I think its got the edge on splits, but you cant be throwing much weight around if you’re doing it everyday. If we know the weight your using we can better advise you. Thanks.

19

Day 1: Chest x 2, Shoulders x 2, Triceps x 2
Day 2: Quads x 3, Hammies x 2, Calves x 1
Day 3: Back x 4, Biceps x 2
Day 4: Off.
Day 5: Repeat cycle.

For a split like this do you change your exercises on the next cycle or keep them the same?

20

[quote]joe shumsky wrote:

at any rate, i fail to see how training with the system that’s always brought me the best progress can be considered not training “smart”. just sayin.

[/quote]

Would you mind giving us a little more information about what you mean when you say “the best progress”

What kind of progress have you made? What are some current lifting stats? Pics?