Isolations or Compounds First?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Over 35 Lifter
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I’m looking for your experience on how to decide whether doing Isolations prior to compounds, or vice-versa, make the most sense.

Chest day, I prefer to exhaust my chest on cable crossover before doing bench or dips. The pump I get from this is glorious and it seems to be giving me good results. I do not do tricep isolations on chest day

For lats I’ll do lat push downs on the standing cable machine before doing compound pulls. I don’t do bicep isolations on lat day.

I have 2 leg day variations (one per week)

For Quad day, I do leg extensions dropsets to really fatigue the quads then I do squat/hack squat.

For Hamstring/Posterior chain day, I’ll do hyperextensions or leg Curl prior to deadlift/RDL.

So far I feel like I’ve gotten great results on these target muscles and it also seems to force me to reduce the weight I’m pushing on these compounds, so I’m seemingly able to recover a little quicker.

But, every time I read an article, it’s always saying do Isolations last. I’m not going to do it just because the article says it’s the best, but I do know that doing the opposite has been pretty effective for me the past 6 months.

Any experience or suggestions from

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Depends on your goals.

If looking to get/stay strong - I recommend compounds first. No sense in tiring out the muscles you’re about to need.

However, pre-fatigue stuff seems semi promising with regards to hypertrophy - so isolation movements before compounds (if hypertrophy is the goal) could make a good bit of sense if done intelligently.

Long story short: You’re doing compounds, likely for the purpose of being strong - so do compounds first (warmup isolation movements not withstanding).
^There is a counter-argument that the heaviest exercises should be at the end of a workout, but I’ve found this to be unproductive (or at least much slower) regarding strength gains.

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If it feels good, Do It.

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I’m pretty much with @FlatsFarmer on this one.

@Andrewgen_Receptors kinda sorta made an argument for compounds first, and I think there’s a lot of reason to do that, so let be contrarian and just argue for the isolation first side of the equation. If I convince anyone, maybe I’ll come back and argue against myself for compounds first.

Some situations where I think isolation-first makes a lot of sense:

  • It takes you forever to warm up. If you’re doing 30-minute routines just to get your body ready to get under a bar for your first squat set, why not let that time go ahead and knock out all of your assistance work? Isolation work is very “low barrier” - you can just jump on a machine or whatever and be knocking out productive reps within minutes. These reps tend to warm all your muscles up so you’re more ready to get into your big lifts - win-win.
  • You don’t have a ton of oomph. Similar to the above, isolation work is an easy way to just get started doing something on days you don’t have it.
  • You’re really strong. Let’s say you’re so strong that to get productive reps on squat is going to take 600 lbs. (because you have a 700 lbs. max); that takes a freaking toll. Why not fatigue some of the prime movers so they aren’t capable, temporarily, of moving 700 lbs… now we’re getting our good reps in with only 500 lbs. and recovering to fight another day. Bonus: if we do this smart, we’re only fatiguing our quads (in this example) so our lower back is taking even less of a relative beating (you can definitely argue against me on this by saying now our lower back will do all the work, but let’s assume we’re going to be amazing on our form).
  • You’re old/ banged up. Similar thought process as the above 3, but let’s put it together: getting a great warmup, reducing our working weight on compounds, getting all our assistance work in, and digging a shallower recovery ditch can be a pretty awesome combination to keep us in the gym day after day with some wear and tear under our monogrammed suede XS lifting belts.
  • Someone else is in the squat rack. Let’s save our blood pressure and not have to be furious our day is ruined, because we can do whatever while we’re waiting and it’s still “in our plan”!

I do think for it to make sense, you better be pretty automatic with your compound lift form and you need to know when you’re pushing yourself vs. phoning it in.

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So I’ll argue against this, but not because I’m a die-hard “compounds first” guy.

Isolation movements sound great and low impact for most, but being totally serious here - if your isolation movements aren’t extremely demanding, you’re doing something wrong. Most of the REALLY big guys I know are using some form of Failure-Based training like Fortitude, DoggCrapp, Jordan Peters, Blood and Guts, etc. The intensity methods used in these are intense and guarenteed to leave you less prepared for heavy compound work than before you started.

Though I’ll also argue that if you are doing heavy compounds and HIT methods, you can expect to be in a world of hurt regardless.

Many folks go train for pump as a near sole indicator of hypertrophy. While I won’t write off ‘the pump’, I think it lacks a lot of benefits created by other methods - if not intentionally aiming to include things like progressive overload and mechanical tension.

  • So if your (OP’s) isolation work is relatively light pump work, I don’t think this would have much impact on your compounds - and could be done before or after.
  • If your (OP’s) isolation work is high intensity (using failure-based systems), then I’d suggest performing compounds first.

Either is fine, really. I assume this question is geared towards the Powerbuilder (powerlifting/hypertrophy), in which case - pick one of the two and prioritize that. When that gets stale, maybe swap your compounds to the other end of your training; just train accordingly to your goal.

P.S I’m not poo-poohing the pump; it has many benefits that are best not ignored. But if you’re only training for the pump and nothing else, then you’re leaving gains on the table.

*steps down from podium*

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I know we’re both in the camp of “it depends,” but I’ll stay on isolations first in response.

  1. Even if they’re super hardcore 90s isolation sets, a set of straight-arm pulldowns simply cannot do to me what a set of deadlifts will.
  2. Annihilating myself on isolation work is going to wreck more muscle than joint, so I still think we get a positive pre-fatigue profile there.
  3. Whether it impacts the compound work is a “so what?” that is definitely goal-dependent. In fact, I’m assuming you should be weaker on compounds to realize the benefits of isolation first.
  4. I also agree simply chasing the pump and not lifting heavy is not going to be your best route.
  5. Periodizing like you suggest is probably the wisest. I’d just say let circumstances dictate. For instance, I don’t know that I’ll ever squat first again… that movement is particularly painful for me. Overhead press, though? If I ever did it, it wouldn’t bother me to do that first.
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From an old man’s perspective (since you’re in O35), my vote is to use isolation to pre-fatigue before your compounds. Then, you will not succumb to temptation/ego and use too much weight for your (old) joints to handle.

Basically, I 100% agree with what you said:

adding -and to spare wear and tear on your joints. The older you get, the more longevity becomes part of the goal. My .02

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Coming from powerlifting, I always do the main lift first. Like everyone said, it really depends on your goals.

Other things to consider are, how quickly you fatigue and recover. I tend to fatigue quick and recover slowly so doing a ton of isolation prior to my compound movement ends up being unproductive. If my legs are already shaking from single joints stuff, I’m not getting under the bar to squat.

I’ve had good results in the past separating the two completely into separate workouts. For instance maybe a bench, press, and pushup workout early in the week, with a tricep, shoulder, upper back isolation later in the week.

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Nothing worked in bringing my chest, lats, and side delts (I’m arms-dominant) up more than pre-exhaust. If someone has been bodybuilding for years and some muscles have decent size but aren’t “popping”, then I seriously recommend pre-exhaust.

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That certainly doesn’t describe all the articles on this site. Someone with broad knowledge on lifting wouldn’t say that for all situations and goals.

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I agree with the others. If you want overall building, start with compounds, work them well, then do isolation to hit lagging areas. If powerlifting, definitely start with compounds while you’re fresh.

But if you’re building up single parts, like chest, then do the pre exhaust. Work the one muscle group, then compound to work them into the ground. It sounds like that’s what you want.

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I have always prioritized the big compound lifts for my entire training career. Only recently have I started following the advice to do smaller movements first. I’m just starting week 9 of Joe DeFranco’s Rebuilt 2.0 and the whole program is built around this concept – pump and prime circuits, followed by an accessory movement or superset and only then the main lift of the day. I feel better than I have in years and I no longer have to warm up for 30 minutes before a session.

I will admit that the ego hit I’ve taken on the numbers I’m using for the main movements has been challenging. And I’m training alone in my garage with nobody to see the comparatively light weights I’m using! But I think for those of us who are over 40 and/or who have been training a while, this is probably the way to go. It isn’t going to be the best for strength or probably size. I do think it is best for longevity though and this strategy will probably make up the bulk of my training year going forward.

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Love this!

Some of this can still be a question of scale, in my opinion. Maybe it’s not best for strength/ size today, but if it buys you more years of training then it becomes the best.

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I don’t suppose there has been an easier question for me to answer than this.
There is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that compound exercises (with big weight) should be done first.

Why do I say this? When I decided to compete in bodybuilding I was in search of the holy grail of adding muscle. At that time around 1971 it seemed as though Arthur Jones found the holy grail. He was a great proponent of pre-exhaustion. Our gym had the Nautilus plate loaded pullover machine and the plate loaded biceps/triceps machine.

I started replacing my chest routine from starting with the bench press to doing sets where I pre-exhausted dumbbell bench flies and immediately followed with the bench press. I quit getting stronger, and in fact, my bench press dropped. I stuck with the pre-exhaust program for a few more months. A blessing came when I guy joined the gym who powerlifted. He got us interested in powerlifting. That was the end of the “failed” pre-exhaust training for me.

Every once in a while I would pre-exhaust to change things up a little, but it never became part of my strategy to put on muscle.

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This has been fantastic to read!

One thing I definitely take away from this is that I wouldn’t be doing Isolations first if my compounds are heavy barbell (bench especially , but even squat) without a spotter or at least some exit strategy for when (not if) I fail under load.

In all the months I’ve been been doing Isolations first, I’ve been using almost exclusively machines of some sort or an enclosed squat rack. Places where you can fail safely, and that is almost always my goal.

Also, I’m definitely taking my Isolations to a very high level of fail. It takes some intuition to know when you should consider your work done on an isolation since you can always count to 30, drop the weight, and do another couple reps.

I usually do 4-6 weight drops and hit failure on the concentric every time, and usually as the weight gets lighter I start doing cheat reps with 5 second eccentrics. Rep count usually starts at about 12-20 at the highest weight setting but by the time I have dropped the weight that last time I can barely do 3-4 concentrics until I start cheats. This is pretty satisfying on cable crossover, cable side laterals… But it’s an other-worldly experience on leg extensions.

When I move on to the compound I usually do 2-4 sets, either dropsets or straight AMRAP sets. Also to fail. I never have a spotter so I don’t have anyone to help do cheat reps.

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If I did that I am positive that I would be overtraining, and would not get the results that I would be striving to get.

I’d like to see some pics that show what your training strategy has accomplished.

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I’m definitely nothing you want to look at, I’m not an advanced lifter. 5’7 with 270lb weight and 38%bf, I can definitely see and feel the muscle gain but it’s not something that is anywhere near what most of you gents are like. I’m also 45, work 50 hour weeks. So if I were overtraining consistently I’d really be a wreck. But your point is appreciated, I’ll explain more below.

I’ve been training for almost 2 years now, no gear, and the first full year was definitely volume overload and lousy form.

The last 8 months however I really started learning proper form, lower volume, higher intensity (ie, failure and beyond) and I started noticing much more results.

Am I overtraining? Occasionally yes but I’ve maintained this sort of workout for 8 months and generally feel way healthier.

My basic workout schedule is a 2 week program.

Monday- Shoulders and chest (2 exercises each)

Weds-Posterior (Romanian deadlift, leg curls, trap shrugs, Calf raises)

Friday-Shoulders and Lats 2 exercises each.

Saturday - Quad day. Calf raise, Leg extension (4-6 sets) , Squats (3-4 sets, 300lb x 10 reps). Squats not done to failure otherwise recovery takes too long.

Sunday-Shoulders Biceps Triceps 2 exercises each.

Note that this is the ideal schedule but rarely happens this way. Usually it takes me more than Monday-Sunday to complete this schedule. These workouts take maybe 45 minutes.

Usually these all end with 15-30 minutes of LIGHT cardio while listening to podcasts. Going to Zone 4 during cardio is the fast ticket to overtraining crash.

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Unrelated to the topic, are you trying to lose weight and what’s your diet look like if so?

I imagine looking better and general health are among the reasons you train?

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Yes it is. Going from 43 years of overeating to “500 daily calorie deficit” is proving to be harder than I imagined.

The past 2 years I’ve gone from 296 to 270 but also gained a lot of muscle along the way so I’ve probably dropped slightly more than 30lbs fat.

My diet is actually quite healthy I just struggle to stay under a slight deficit. I’m 5 minutes from clocking it for work so I don’t have time to elaborate at the moment but maybe later today I can

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Compounds first for me, but I don’t over analyze it. Most likely due to being a creature of habit. I was introduced to weights via sports and compounds were king.

I still view compounds as the real strength and mass builders with isolation work as helpers, except for maybe biceps.

I want to use my energy working multi-joint lifts considering and will use what’s left chasing selective pumps.

But I’m primarily interested in “big and strong” in general more than bodybuilding.

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