[quote]Chushin wrote:
lixy wrote:
Chushin wrote:
As far as anyone’s concerned, a Muslim is someone who professed the following words: “There is no God but Allah, and Mohamed is [one of] his prophet[s].”
Then comes the four other pillars: Daily prayer, fasting from dusk till dawn on the month of Ramadan, giving out a ratio of your wealth to the poor every year and finally the pilgrimage to Mecca if you can afford it (physically and financially).
Nobody knows the “true” Muslim from the hypocrite but God Himself.
But if by “fake” you mean the whackjobs who interpret the religion in the same way as the folks in the OP’s video, based on my own experience I’ll say a few thousands. But then again, I’ve never been to either Afghanistan nor Pakistan…
C’mon Lixy; you’re confusing me here. Hasn’t your point all along been that the folks who engage in all the things we non-Muslims criticize (horrendous oppression of women, killing of gays, hatred of non-believers, blowing people up, destruction of life and property over cartoons, “death sentences” to authors, etc, etc, etc) are not “true” Muslims? That they are practicing a perverted form of Islam?
And now you say that anybody who professes certain words IS a Muslim? It seems you’re trying to have it both ways. Which is it? Are a you a true Muslim or not, even if you follow some distorted (according to you and V) version of Islam, as so many seem to do?
And then, to claim that there are only “a few thousands” “whackjobs?” Hey, I’m very willing to admit I know little about the subject (thus my initial questions), but even I don’t buy that. Shit, more than “a few thousands” were rioting in the streets over the cartoons! And to be clear, I (and most non-Muslims) consider punishing a raped woman or hanging a homosexual to be just as “whackjob” as suicide bombing or beheading.
How did Catholic priests get from Jesus’ message to molesting kids? Why did followers of Moses turn to usury? I can’t tell you. But it certainly is a fascinating topic.
Someone sitting in Tripoli or elsewhere with little interaction with Christians might even ask why there are so many pedophiles in the Church.
Absolutely. But see, 1)the Christian community is in crisis because of this; it is suffering financially, in membership and spiritually; 2)You don’t see priests publicly advocating such behavior (and others FOLLOWING ALONG!); 3)Such behavior is clearly a problem of individual pathology; it’s not some “teaching” or policy.
None of these 3 points can be made about the distorted and destructive practices found in today’s Islam in many places.
Perhaps condemnations have taken place, but I don’t get the impression that “real” Muslims march in the streets, work hard to be heard, “call out” the “fakes,” etc. Not even when people riot, destroy and kill over cartoons, or an author is “sentenced” to death for writing a novel. In short, I, at least, have not been so impressed with the forces of “good” Islam.
You are seeing things from your own perspective. A counterpart to your blindness, might say the same thing. i.e: that s/he doesn’t get the impression Americans are marching in the streets or working hard to be heard when bombings, invasions and carnage are done in their name (and on their dime!).
Firstly, if you’d like to have a productive discussion, you might want to avoid calling the other party “blind,” no?
Anyway, while it may be true that Americans could do more, the fact is that there IS a considerable anti-war movement in the US. You yourself have talked about this. Are you telling me that if I go to a Muslim country I’ll experience the same kind of anti-radical movement there?
And to the extent that Americans DON’T speak out, you are proving my point: They don’t speak out because they SUPPORT the war. I assume the same holds true for the Muslims who are silent in the face of “distorted” Islam?
A few things you can do to get a better perspective: travel around majority-Muslim countries (and I don’t mean with a helmet, M-16 and other military gear),
You know, Lixy, I’m partly of Arabic background. One of my parents was born of Arab immigrants. Don’t you think folks like us have an interest in traveling to the Middle East? Can you guarantee our safety to a reasonable degree? Can I go to Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and not be concerned for my safety? I’m sure you’ll minimize this, but I’d be stupid to take the chance that your Muslim brothers happened to “act up” while I was there.
seek Muslims and hang out with them (the more numerous and varied, the more accurate the image will be),
Please don’t patronize me, Lixy. I LIVED with an Iranian woman (and at times her family) for 8 years, participated in the local Iranian community during that time, and hung out with several of her Arab friends for years.
and last but not least get your news from non-profit media as much as possible.
Thanks, but that’s kind of obvious, isn’t it?
Of course, I’ve had the privilege of having a decent education, and studying the Quran and Hadith on my own (instead of having it shoved down my throat). Many people didn’t have that luxury I suppose.
Good point.
The religion came from God. The prophet was a mere messenger. Mohamed, albeit a remarkable person, was a mere mortal and had weaknesses just like any other human.
Weaknesses are ok, but slaughtering large numbers of people (assuming what I’ve read is accurate)? That’s not “weakness;” that’s serial killing.
Mohamed didn’t conquer Arabia by the sword alone. It is the Islamic message of harmony, equality and compassion coupled with his charisma and modesty that united what was before him a chaotic region.
Not to be a jerk, but what is a man of god doing “conquering” ANYTHING? How does that reconcile with a “religion of peace?”
I’ll speak of what I know best: Morocco! Islam didn’t reach my country by the sword. It was a fellow by the name of Idriss Ben-Abdellah who, in the 8th century, was fleeing the Abassides (who just had slaughtered his whole family) with nothing but beasts and a sidekick named Rachid). They were offered refuge by the indigenous Berbers. Idriss taught them about Islam and the religion spread virally. So much so that, the locals put his 11 year old son on the throne of the newly formed Islamic Kingdom of Morocco - the second totally independent Islamic territory from the Caliphate after Al-Andalus (modern-day Spain). Do you honestly believe a guy preaching death and division would have stood a chance? Do you think a guy in the 8th century (allegedly direct descendant of Ali) knew more about the core of the message of Mohamed than some Californian dude?
I don’t think anyone doubts there is a “peace and love” face to Islam. The problem seems to be that there is also a “death and conquest” aspect. Thus, one can justify pretty much anything, it seems.
Related to this, could you please address some of the Islamic quotes seen here about not befriending Christains and Jews, etc? (see Sifu’s post.) How can one dispute these? I’m genuinely interested in your response to these.
At a minimum, doesn’t the Islamic acceptance of “self-defense” just provide a rationale for anyone who wants to use violence?
I don’t understand the question.
It’s the point I’ve made before. Christianity & Buddhism pretty much renounce all violence (at least as popularly taught). But as I understand it, Islam says “If it’s self-defense, fire away!” The problem is one can call almost anything “self-defense” to justify one’s actions.
I could go on and on, of course, but I guess in the end it seems less important to me what “true” Islam is than what “actual” (ie, as practiced in today’s world) Islam is. You’ve got to admit there’s a whole lotta suffer’n goin’ on around the world under the banner of Islam these days…
Sure, that is a legitimate issue.
OK, so for me, this is what it all comes down to. How do we (you?) stop all this “Islamic-based” suffering? Were it to stop, there’d be a lot more acceptance of Muslims and Islam.
In closing, please don’t assume I’m trying to prove Islam “evil” or anything. I just can’t get my head around the things I see in the real world vs. what folks like you say is Islam.
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Let me explain the misinterpretation of Islam in a nutshell.I did not read the entire thread, but you post was the last, so I thought I would continue from here. Some BG info to being with.
In Islam there are 2 major sects, the Sunni sect and the Shia sect. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are either Sunni or Shia.
Wahbbism (or the Wahabbi sect) is an off-shoot, or sub-sect of the Sunni branch of Islam. Ironically, it holds no significant force outside of Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries. This is the sect that worries the West the most.
So now we come to the definition of a Muslim. As you are aware, a Muslim is somebody who declares that Allah is the only god and that Mohammad is his messenger.
Islam does not support violence, it does not support forced expansion, or forced conversion. This is evident in history, ironically, if it wasn’t for Islam, there would be no Jews in the world today. Sure, there have been times when crimes have been committed by Muslim armies, but this has more to do with Army behavior and not religion.
Thus if a Muslim, kills a non-Muslim, because they are ideologically opposed to Islamic beliefs, they are now outside the realm of what we define as a Muslim. The main proponents of terrorism today are people that are tricked or misguided under the guise of Islam, by Wahabbi, extremist politicians, who are power/money hungry. Furthermore, Suicide in Islam is absolutely prohibited, thus, the idea of a suicide bomber going to heaven is a joke and in fact, suicide bombing originated in Japan, it is not the product of Islam.
That will be all for now.
Please feel free to let me know if you would like me to elaborate on any point.
