Islam: What the West Needs to Know

Shoebolt your assertion that one needs to read the Koran and Hadith from front to back to know what they need to know about islam is not true.

What you are suggesting would be like saying one needs to read mein kampf from front to back, read every copy of Der Sturmer from front to back, watch triumph of the will and all of Goebel’s propaganda films, etc… to know about Hitler and the nazi’s.

We aren’t cherry picking when we focus in on things like the order to kill apostates any more than focusing in Auschwitz would be cherry picking the nazi era to make the nazi’s look worse than they really are.

Lixy the reason why Catholic preists have a tendency to stray from their vows of celibacy with the choir, has been attributed to the Catholics vows of celibacy.

When a lot of preists go into the seminary they usually are in their teens and they are virgins. So they are sexually naive. By the time they graduate from seminary they are sexually immature for their age. If you put someone like that in a position of power over a bunch of kids, it’s a disaster waiting to happen.

This is why for example you don’t see Anglican preists who are allowed to marry having affairs with choirboys.

This is a good example of how a traditional practice within a religion that is seen as benign can actually have some bad outcomes.

I think that in Islam like with the Catholics there are some practices that at first look don’t seem bad. But if you are not careful they can lead you down a bad road.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
We aren’t cherry picking when we focus in on things like the order to kill apostates any more than focusing in Auschwitz would be cherry picking the nazi era to make the nazi’s look worse than they really are.

[/quote]

No, but at the same time it would be foolish to believe that every member of the National Socialist party in Germany had a personal hand in the Holocaust.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Sifu wrote:
We aren’t cherry picking when we focus in on things like the order to kill apostates any more than focusing in Auschwitz would be cherry picking the nazi era to make the nazi’s look worse than they really are.

No, but at the same time it would be foolish to believe that every member of the National Socialist party in Germany had a personal hand in the Holocaust.[/quote]

Maybe not a personal hand in it, but they obviously knew what they were getting into when they joined the party.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Sifu wrote:
We aren’t cherry picking when we focus in on things like the order to kill apostates any more than focusing in Auschwitz would be cherry picking the nazi era to make the nazi’s look worse than they really are.

No, but at the same time it would be foolish to believe that every member of the National Socialist party in Germany had a personal hand in the Holocaust.

Maybe not a personal hand in it, but they obviously knew what they were getting into when they joined the party.
[/quote]

You’ve never studied German pre-war history have you? They knew what they were getting into to the fact that they knew the Jews were being blamed and run out of town. Most were unaware of the mass murdering, just like the rest of the world. The ones who were aware (regular citizens) rarely actively supported it, but protesting would’ve been a bad idea at the time as well, so they just ignored it.

Was it right to ignore? Of course not.

But had I been a German white Christian from that era, could I honestly say I’d have the courage to speak up against something like that? I’m not sure. That’s why I cannot condemn equally the Nazi leaders and the citizens. And that is why I cannot condemn the Muslims as I condemn the extremists.

When standing up and saying “this is down right wrong” gets your ostracized or worse, I don’t blame anyone for shutting up. I heavily applaud those that do stand up to the violence, but those few voices are hardly enough to convince you people that most Muslims do not condone the kind of violence the extremists do.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
No, but at the same time it would be foolish to believe that every member of the National Socialist party in Germany had a personal hand in the Holocaust.[/quote]

Which is why I believe the “religion of peace” and “most Muslims are peaceful people” argument being used in defense of Islam itself falls flat on its face.

The majority of Muslims are peaceful because the majority of human beings are naturally peaceful.

If a tribe of humans was genetically predisposed to aggression and violence, not only would they constantly be killing one-another, but the more peaceful tribes surrounding them would ally and wipe those aggressive bastards out to the last man, woman, and child. After an isolated, bloody conflict, the meek would go back to living their relatively peaceful lives.

Even if one member of the tribe had a random genetic mutation giving predisposition to excessive violence, he’d piss a lot of people off. A couple tribe members would wait 'till he slept and smash his head with a rock.

The end result of this is human beings: relatively peaceful, social primates, regardless of their superstitious beliefs.


The majority of Nazi Party members were peaceful, but that doesn’t mean that the Nazi Movement was peaceful.

The majority of Russians were peace-loving folk, but that doesn’t mean that global Communism was a wonderful, peaceful movement. USSR operations to spread the International Socialist Movement were still responsible for over 100 million deaths world wide, and at least ten times that many atrocities against humanity.

I’m sure the KKK are wonderful people to hang out with, so long as you’re “one of them”.

As soon as you divide people into a strongly elite “us” and the rest of the world into a “them”, you encourage all sorts of the nastiest parts of human nature – but to one another those elite members of the “us” will be a very loving, supportive community.

So however many posts back, Shoebolt said something along the lines that it’s not “non-Muslims” who deserve to die, it’s only if a person hears the message of Islam and rejects it, they are guilty of a crime against God? The Romans heard the message of Islam and rejected it, therefore they were guilty and deserved to be destroyed.

Something to that effect.

Well, I’ve gone to many “Islam Awareness Week” presentations, for a few years in a row, I’ve read the “learn about Islam” literature in my mailbox, and I’m seriously not interested. I’d sooner convert to Christianity, Buddhism, or Hinduism before Islam. Hell, maybe even Judaism. Going to synagogue would probably yield a lot of great business contacts.

Does that make me guilty of a “crime” against Allah?

Should I now have my opposite hand and foot cut off?

Do I now deserve to have Muslims take my condo and sleep in my bed (thankfully, I don’t have a wife to “share”) for three days?

Do I now deserve to pay “penalty” of 75% of my income to the Muslims living in my community?

I’ve heard the message of Islam and I’ve rejected it. It’s nothing new. The good parts of human nature will be there always and I can practice my life by them without the help of Moe, Al, or their Quran & Hadith, thank you very much.

Let me spell it out for ya’ll:

I, ElbowStrike, having heard the message of Islam, reject that message, reject submission to Allah, and reject all of the writings of the prophet Mohammed, who I conclude to be nothing more than a blood-thirsty war-lord who engineered an abusive cult, loosely based on Judeo-Christian mythology, for the sole purpose of gaining political dominance.

I do not need Islam to live a peaceful, fulfilling life and if there is a God, I am confident He will judge my life based on my words, thoughts, and actions – not by which temple or group I took affiliation.

Does this make me a criminal?
What punishment would be appropriate for my heresy?

I’m really asking.

ElbowStrike

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
What punishment would be appropriate for my heresy?

I’m really asking.

ElbowStrike[/quote]

According to the Qur’an, eternity in Hell.

And strictly speaking, you would be considered an infidel, not a heretic.

Sifu, what the folks in the OP’s video did goes beyond cherry-picking. It’s taking excerpts and events out of context and completely ignoring the events and dynamics surrounding them.

ElbowStrike, having heard the message of Scientology, I reject that message, I reject submission to Xenu, and reject all of the writings of the Ron, who I conclude to be nothing more than an imaginative salesman who laid down (engineered is too strong a term here) an abusive cult, loosely based on science fiction, for the sole purpose of gaining a buck. But when you start shamelessly comparing Muslims to Nazis, Stalinists or the KKK, well…you just come off as an angry and completely out-of-touch kid. People endorse a religion for themselves. You make it sound as if Shoebolt or me - as Muslims - will benefit from your conversion to Islam. Guess again! And yes, God will judge you based on your thoughts, words and actions. Let’s just say that actively slandering a group of innocent people based on their faith and purposefully undermining harmony and social cohesion by spreading around lies and half-truths is not looked upon lightly by .

This is a thread that has done its time. What I find totally surreal, is that the same people asking for massive deportation and/or internment of people based on their race or religion are the ones bringing up Hitler.

I’m done with both of you.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sifu wrote:
So the solution is to stop all further immigration of muslims outside of the muslim world.

I was despairing nobody would bite, so let me first thank you for sharing your views.

I’m not sure I understand your point. You say “outside of the muslim world” but use the term “immigration”. It just don’t compute.

So which is it you want to stop, immigration or emigration?

Repatriation of large numbers might also be a good idea.

What do you mean “repatriation”? There are millions of Muslims living the West. The US Department of State put the number of Muslims in France at over 6 millions. Needless to tell you that there are probably more than that in the US itself. I don’t know the exact proportions, but I’m guessing quite a lot were born in those countries and/or converted. What would you do about Keith Elisson? Throw him in the sea?

More importantly, how do you plan on circumventing the 1st Amendment?

I’m genuinely curious.[/quote]

Most folks (with a functioning central nervous system) living in democratic societies do not want to wake up and hear statements like this:

It’s the type of thing that CAIR dreams of here in the US though.

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
I, ElbowStrike, having heard the message of Islam, reject that message, reject submission to Allah, and reject all of the writings of the prophet Mohammed, who I conclude to be nothing more than a blood-thirsty war-lord who engineered an abusive cult, loosely based on Judeo-Christian mythology, for the sole purpose of gaining political dominance.

I do not need Islam to live a peaceful, fulfilling life and if there is a God, I am confident He will judge my life based on my words, thoughts, and actions – not by which temple or group I took affiliation.

Does this make me a criminal?
What punishment would be appropriate for my heresy?

I’m really asking.

ElbowStrike[/quote]

The same punishment a Muslim gets in Christian philosophy. Eternal suffering. Enjoy it!

Well Lixy if the Germans in 1933 had known what was going to happen to Hamburg, Koln, Dresden etc… would they have still voted for Hitler?

I think that muslims need to have it impressed upon them that they need to change their evil ways or it is going to end badly for them.

The idea of internment might not sound too appealing, but you have to admit it is nicer than what the muslims in Turkey did to the Christian Armenians. Even today the Turkish government refuses to come clean about the Armenian genocide.

If islam is such an overwelmingly peaceful religion how do you explain the Armenian genocide? Is it because of all the times mohammad said that Christians and Jews should be killed?

“Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.” (Surah 5:51)

“Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” (Surah 48:29)

“Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home.” (Surah 9:73)

As long as we have people following the koran there will be problems, it is unavoidable.

[quote]lixy wrote:
ElbowStrike, having heard the message of Scientology, I reject that message, I reject submission to Xenu, and reject all of the writings of the Ron, who I conclude to be nothing more than an imaginative salesman who laid down (engineered is too strong a term here) an abusive cult, loosely based on science fiction, for the sole purpose of gaining a buck.[/quote]

Uhh… good?

I don’t think that’s the analogy you want to be using. Scientology is a dangerous cult,formed with the sole purpose of making L. Ron Hubbard a ton of cash and sex with followers.

If you think a person can’t make up a new religion based on Judaism and Christianity and gain dominance over an area in a very short amount of time, I suggest you read up on the history of the Church of Latter-Day Saints.

Among his many abuses, Joseph Smith made it a habit to impregnate his followers’ wives while the husbands were sent off on “missions” halfway across the country. Mormons deny this and still worship him to this day.

People will ignore obvious abuse and corruption because they want to believe that holy men can exist and show them an easy way out of their existential funk.

ElbowStrike

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
ElbowStrike wrote:
I, ElbowStrike, having heard the message of Islam, reject that message, reject submission to Allah, and reject all of the writings of the prophet Mohammed, who I conclude to be nothing more than a blood-thirsty war-lord who engineered an abusive cult, loosely based on Judeo-Christian mythology, for the sole purpose of gaining political dominance.

I do not need Islam to live a peaceful, fulfilling life and if there is a God, I am confident He will judge my life based on my words, thoughts, and actions – not by which temple or group I took affiliation.

Does this make me a criminal?
What punishment would be appropriate for my heresy?

I’m really asking.

ElbowStrike

The same punishment a Muslim gets in Christian philosophy. Eternal suffering. Enjoy it![/quote]

Speaking of punishment, this looks a bit harsh.

Tokoya here is another view on the archbishops lecture.

Bishops’ backlash as Archbishop of Canterbury defends calls for sharia law

This is why I say the experiment with muslim immigration needs to be halted. It has not been a two way exchange of cultures. It has been purely one way where muslims move into christian countries and try to impose their way on everyone else.

Liberals are a threat to our freedom and our way of life.

To say that the British experiment with multiculturalism has gone wrong is a bit of an understatement.

Good luck with those sharia courts by the way.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Tokoya here is another view on the archbishops lecture.

Bishops’ backlash as Archbishop of Canterbury defends calls for sharia law

This is why I say the experiment with muslim immigration needs to be halted. It has not been a two way exchange of cultures. It has been purely one way where muslims move into christian countries and try to impose their way on everyone else.

Liberals are a threat to our freedom and our way of life.[/quote]

That is no problem, just make those camps a little bit bigger.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

That is no problem, just make those camps a little bit bigger.[/quote]

With a little planning and forethought, we might be able to squeeze the Gypsies and the homosexuals in, too.

[quote]Tokoya wrote:

Speaking of punishment, this looks a bit harsh.

[/quote]

This example gives an example of crimes, not punishments. Extrajudicial mutilation and murder of women is not condoned under Sharia law, so what’s your point?

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Tokoya wrote:

Speaking of punishment, this looks a bit harsh.

This example gives an example of crimes, not punishments.[/quote]

Crimes and punishments meted out by those enforcing specific criteria of a religion. Guess which one.

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Tokoya wrote:

Speaking of punishment, this looks a bit harsh.

This example gives an example of crimes, not punishments.
[/quote]
Crimes and punishments meted out by those enforcing specific criteria of a religion. Guess which one.