Islam: What the West Needs to Know

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1

I just finished watching this film:

http://www.whatthewestneedstoknow.com/

My hands are shaking.

The structure of the Quran is picked apart by ex-Jihadists and various experts painting a picture of Islam that fits a lot more with my personal experiences growing up in a majority-Muslim community, rather than the “religion of peace” mantra we are fed through the mass media.

If you have not seen it, I highly recommend it. Having been an arrogant, America-hating, far-lefty in the past, I should’ve been bitch-slapped with this film years ago.

It fits perfectly. It fits absolutely perfectly with my experiences with Muslims in Muslim-majority situations growing up, it fits perfectly with why Muslim nations fail to uphold treaty obligations, it fits a LOT better with what the terrorists are talking about with Jihad and the Quran’s justification for it, it fits with my preconception that the Crusades were a Just Cause and should have gone on for another 1,000 years… It just fits.

It’s like in the middle of all the PC bullshit flying around, a couple Jews and an ex-Jihadi say what needs to be said, and it’s caught on film.

The major sources for the film are the Quran and Hadith themselves.

Major points of note:

  • Islam was a religion of peace when it was in the minority. Then, as Muhammad gained power over the city (Medina?), the “new” rules came out, which over-wrote the old rules, and called for violent war against non-believers (Christians, Jews, Pagans, etc).

  • The world is divided into two “houses” in Islam: The House of Islam (the Islamic World) and The House of War (the non-believers, who must be conquered. Violently, if necessary).

  • Muslims are allowed to lie if it serves their Faith.

  • Muslims put on a friendly face for Westerners when they are in the minority, and the violent, radical side of Islam comes out only when they have a chance to take power. They are required by their faith to do this.

  • Western Democracy is seen as a pre-Islamic state of ignorance which must be corrected by Islam.

  • Muslim forces can only make peace when they are weaker than their enemies. As soon as they are stronger, peace is forbidden. They must make war.

  • A ‘peace treaty’ in Islam can only last for up to 10 years. It is a ceasefire agreement, if anything. It is only allowed so that the Muslims have time to rebuild their forces to launch aggressive war once again.

  • The Muslim Expansion was only ever stopped by violent retribution by the West, which caused a small “blip” of peace with the West. They are back again to expansion, now by immigration and reproduction.

  • Violent global Jihad has been ongoing, non-stop, since the 7th century.

  • Quote of note: “[when the entire world is ruled by Islam] then even the smallest rock will call out ‘there is a Jew hiding behind me! Come and cut off his head!’”

  • Islam is not a religion. It is a violent, expansionist political system with a religious aspect.

If there’s even a sliver of truth to that film, WW3 may already be upon us, the retardedly-Liberal West just doesn’t know it.

I’m going to go throw up now.

Discuss.

ElbowStrike

2

Europe certainly doesn’t know it. They are being eaten up, slowly. We’ve got Mexicans, they’ve got Muslims.

3

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
Discuss.

ElbowStrike[/quote]

I will be watching this later on today, but just on your bullet points, historically Islam was about equally tolerant as Catholicism during the middle ages. Of course, I agree with some points, the whole Islamic “religion of peace” is perpetrated among a lot of other cliches about that period, including Islamic “superior culture and education” (both of which were majorly parasitic on Roman and Greek influences)

Obviously, since then, the West has become civilised to an extent and Islam thanks to the likes of Qutb and other pseudo intellectuals has become a plague on reason and sense.

4

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
Having been an arrogant, America-hating, far-lefty in the past, I should’ve been bitch-slapped with this film years ago. [/quote]

That’s an interesting comment. Why do you feel your hate of “America” in the past is relevant in this context?

What “Muslim nations” do you have in mind?

Well, they’re preaching to the converted. I haven’t seen the movie, but from what I gather, skeptics won’t be impressed.

You know, Al-Qaeda uses those sources too. You happen to be in a similar position as their recruits: being fed out of context quotes for propaganda purposes.

I won’t dissect your points because I haven’t seen the movie, but if you’d like to point out the logic and scripture behind any of them (the “Islam is not a religion” should be a riot!), we could get somewhere. Most of them have been discussed ad nauseaum on this very board though. The search function is your friend.

But for the sake of discussion, let’s assume for a minute that everything you wrote is true, that Muslims are a bunch of hypocrites, that there is some grand conspiracy on their part to take over the world by force and that the mass media are taking part in said mischief. What then do you suggest we do about it? Any thoughts?

5

[quote]lixy wrote:
But for the sake of discussion, let’s assume for a minute that everything you wrote is true, that Muslims are a bunch of hypocrites, that there is some grand conspiracy on their part to take over the world by force…[/quote]

Yeah, this does reek of conspiracy theorising, but we cannot ignore that a lot of religions have their roots in non-peaceful events and methods of conversion. Would Christianity be as widespread were it not for centuries of violence and conquest? Would Islam? Could a religion be unaffected by so called “misuse” up to the modern day? I think these things are nothing new to an objective observer.

This does not mean that modern followers all follow this mentality, but suffice to say one of the primary utilities of religion is one of politics/warfare. It just so happens that some Islamic leaders are clinging to this tradition.

6

[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
Yeah, this does reek of conspiracy theorising, but we cannot ignore that a lot of religions have their roots in non-peaceful events and methods of conversion. Would Christianity be as widespread were it not for centuries of violence and conquest? Would Islam? Could a religion be unaffected by so called “misuse” up to the modern day? I think these things are nothing new to an objective observer. [/quote]

I’ve seen plenty of interviews with Greg Davis about his movie, and he makes it clear that it is not “misuse”. Here’s the synopsis:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ab/Islam_What_the_West_Needs_to_Know_-_Back_Cover.gif

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I think you should consider the facts of the religion before you consider the behaviour of it’s followers.

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:

Major points of note:

  • Islam was a religion of peace when it was in the minority. Then, as Muhammad gained power over the city (Medina?), the “new” rules came out, which over-wrote the old rules, and called for violent war against non-believers (Christians, Jews, Pagans, etc). [/quote]

Read some Islamic History from the Madinite period. There is too much for me to post here. The three battles of Badr, Uhud and the Trench were conducted due to initial instigation by the non-Muslim Quraish of Makkah.

The Muslims of Madinah did conduct raids at times on Caravans traveling to Makkah. But this was only due to the fact that the Quraish had established a trade embargo on Madinah (they were the authority of trade in the area at that time - like the US today), so the Muslims had to raid caravans to survive and obtain sustainment for the citizens of Madinah, and they raided the caravans specifically belonging to the Quraish so that they would reconsider placing the trade embargo, plus the fact that it would be fundamentally forbidden to raid the caravan of a tribe that was not their enemy.

  • The world is divided into two “houses” in Islam: The House of Islam (the Islamic World) and The House of War (the non-believers, who must be conquered. Violently, if necessary).

“Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies.” Surah 40:28.

The guidance of Allah is more valuable to a practicing Muslim than all the gold of the world, what do you know of Islam?

Here’s more:
Sahih MuslimBook 032, Number 6303:
Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu’ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good.

Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife (to , and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a form so that order is developed to bring reconciliation between them).

This means that lying is SPECIFICALLY only allowed in battle i.e. on the battlefield. How many times have the CIA and FBI lied to THEIR OWN PEOPLE? This is something not even allowed in Islam.

[quote]

  • Muslims put on a friendly face for Westerners when they are in the minority, and the violent, radical side of Islam comes out only when they have a chance to take power. They are required by their faith to do this.

  • Western Democracy is seen as a pre-Islamic state of ignorance which must be corrected by Islam.

  • Muslim forces can only make peace when they are weaker than their enemies. As soon as they are stronger, peace is forbidden. They must make war.[/quote]

Let me remind you that in Islam, the disbeliever (i.e. the kuffar word you hate so much) is one who has HEARD the message of Islam, then rejected it completely and turned away from it. Not just anyone who randomly is non-muslims. If you go to any public place in North America and ask everyone what they know Islam, they will say ‘terrorists’ or ‘jihad’ (what they learn from the media) and no one will know a single fact about what are the basics of what Muslims believe in the first place. Try it and see.

As for making war with non-muslim states, please tell me when this has happened in the Early days of Islam, when the populace and government of the muslims was actually following the guidance of the Prophet Muhammad?? The two empires who fought the muslims (i.e. the Romans and the Persians), were INVITED to islam, but upon hearing the message of Islam were the FIRST ones to send troops to fight the muslims.

Where is your proof? Just saying something and spreading dissent and hate? How are you different from a Nazi yourself?

Specific treaties like Hudaybiyyah were specifically time-limited due to the length of peace treaties tribally ordained in Arabia at the time. Breaking a peace treaty in Islam is forbidden unless the other side attacks, in which case Muslims are obligated to defend themselves to their fullest capability.

Proof:
The Quraish were the first to break the peace treaties with the Muslims.

  1. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish - pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions). - Surah At-Taubah.

[quote] - The Muslim Expansion was only ever stopped by violent retribution by the West, which caused a small “blip” of peace with the West. They are back again to expansion, now by immigration and reproduction.

  • Violent global Jihad has been ongoing, non-stop, since the 7th century. [/quote]

Do you have historical proof to back this up? Muslim ‘expansion’ was spread through trade as people in markets around AFrica and Spain noticed the character and morals of tradesmen coming into the markets and realized that it was the result of Islam. These areas pledged allegiance to the Caliphate as they became Muslim. Wars only started as Muslim lands came into contact with Christian lands, who by the way were the FIRST to call muslims ‘infidels’ and attack them. Study History from books and scholars, not from movies.

[quote]

  • Quote of note: “[when the entire world is ruled by Islam] then even the smallest rock will call out ‘there is a Jew hiding behind me! Come and cut off his head!’” [/quote]

Once again, proofs, texts, quotes? Where is it all? I hate to sound rude, but me just replying to your claims is tedious.

This event is in hadith the pertain to the time when a large collection of Jews will join the armies of the Antichrist. The Jews in question here will not be just any Jews being killed due to ‘anti-semitic’ beliefs or anything of the sort, these will be Jews who will be fought because they joined the army of the Anti-Christ (called Dajjal in Islam). And btw, this doesn’t mean that Jews are evil either, a lot of Muslims weak in faith and other peoples will be part of Dajjal’s army as well.

I have already addressed this.

Now, if anyone wants to say something about Islam, please next time, study islamic history carefully from the original sources, if you are going to quote the Quran, quote the verses before and after the verse, the circumstances in which they were revealed, and the sayings (hadith) of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) pertaining to those verses - as he would explain the verses to his companions and muslims of that time.

If you want to say something about Islam, make sure you are talking about the religion, not hte followers, because every religion has good and bad people. And make sure, always, you come with proof, and not just with empty words, because Islam is not built on blind faith, but proofs, evidences, and texts dating back 1400 years, and a book that has yet to be imitated or duplicated in its original language, simplicity and beauty of recitation.

As for Islam not being a religion, here is the basics of Islamic monotheism (Tawheed)-(taken from IslamToday.com:

  • Islam emphasizes that Allah (arabic word for God) is the Creator of all things. He is unique in every way and none has the right to be worshipped except for Him.

-A Muslim must believe in all of the scriptures sent by Allah to His different Messengers. A Muslim must believe in every scripture mentioned by Allah in the Qurân. Allah sent them and they are the actual Word of Allah.
The scriptures that Allah mentions in the Qurân are as follows:

  1. The scrolls that were revealed to Abraham (peace be upon him).
  2. The Torah that was revealed to Moses (peace be upon him).
  3. The Psalms that were revealed to David (peace be upon him).
  4. The Gospel that was revealed to Jesus (peace be upon him).
  5. The Qurân that was revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him).
    At the same time, the Muslims do not consider the Bible that is presently in circulation in various editions and versions to be an accurate representation of the older scriptures that were revealed before the Qurân. According to the Qurân, people have changed these scriptures for their own worldly ends. What remains of them is a mixture of truth and falsehood.

-The Prophets and Messengers (peace be upon them) were people who received revelation from Allah. They were sent to humanity to teach people the truth and to guide them to the path of salvation. None of the Prophets and Messengers share in any part of Allah’s divinity. They were merely human beings. It is forbidden for a Muslim to worship them in any way. A Muslim should never invoke them, make supplications to them, or seek Allah’s mercy and forgiveness through them. All such things are acts of polytheism, and anyone who practices such things is outside of the fold of Islam.

Allah had sent Prophets throughout the ages to different nations of people all over the world. A Muslim must believe in all of the Prophets and Messengers. Allah in the Qurân has mentioned some of them. Among those who have been mentioned by name are Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad (peace be upon them all.)

All of the Prophets and Messengers came with the religion of Islam. They were all Muslims. The people who truly followed these Prophets when they came were also Muslims. For example, when Moses came, anyone who truly followed him was Muslim until the time of the next Prophet. Likewise, when Jesus came, it was obligatory for everyone to accept him if they were to be considered Muslims. All the Prophets and Messengers called humanity to worship Allah alone without ascribing to Him any partner, and they all submitted completely to the will of Allah, which is Islam.

The Prophets, from Adam to Muhammad (peace be upon them) were all brothers in faith. They all called to the same truth. Different Messengers came with different sets of laws that Allah sent with them to govern the people, but the essence of their teachings was the same. They all called people away from the worship of created things to the worship of the Creator.

Muslims love and respect all of the Prophets and Messengers of Allah. If a person rejects or dislikes any one of them, that person is not a Muslim.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) has the distinction of being Allah’s final Messenger to humanity. No Prophet or Messenger will come after him. For this reason, he is known as the Seal of the Prophets. This means that the manifestation of the Divine Law that is embodied in the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is for all of humanity until the Day of Judgment. It is obligatory on all people to believe in him and all the Prophets and Messengers who came before him.

-It is obligatory on all Muslims to believe in the Day of Judgment. This is the day when each and every individual will stand before Allah and be questioned about his or her deeds. The reward for success on this day is Paradise. The penalty for failure is Hell. Allah will not be unjust to any of His Creation.

  • Allah knows everything that goes on in His Creation and the time that it occurs. From the perspective of beings like us, this means that Allah knows everything that happened in the past, everything that is happening in the present, and everything that will happen in the future. Allah’s Divine Knowledge is perfect, so whatever He knows is going to happen in the future must come to pass. Furthermore, Allah has Absolute Sovereignty over His Creation. Everything that exists within it and every event that occurs is a direct result of His creating it. Nothing happens in Creation except by His Power and as He wills.

And all this belief is based on two things: the Quran, and the Sunnah (sayings of Prophet Muhammad pbuh), we are not permitted to make up things in the religion based on what we think or prefer.

8

What are you guys arguing directly with me for?

I watched a movie and summarized the points I got out of it.

You can’t argue with me without watching the movie first.

I didn’t make the movie, I watched it.

Watch and we can discuss.

I posted the link. Set aside 90 minutes, watch it, and then we’re on the same page.

Geez.

ElbowStrike

9

[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
we cannot ignore that a lot of religions have their roots in non-peaceful events and methods of conversion. Would Christianity be as widespread were it not for centuries of violence and conquest? Would Islam?[/quote]

Yes and no.

The Crusades were in response to Muslim expansion. Muslims had conquered the Holy Land and were performing raids on Christian pilgrims. They were invading through Spain and Italy, and had conquered and subjugated the Christians and Jews in Northern Africa and the Balkans.

The spread of Christianity during the colonial period was violent, but the motive was to establish military, economic, and cultural dominance over the indigenous people and their resources, not to “spread the faith”.

The missionaries came in as a part of the dominant nations’ cultural assimilation strategy, but spreading Christianity itself was not the motivating factor of colonialism.

ElbowStrike

10

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
I didn’t make the movie, I watched it. [/quote]

Well, swallowed would be a more appropriate term here.

I’ll reiterate my question: Assuming everything you said is founded and true, what do you propose we do about it?

11

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
Nikiforos wrote:
we cannot ignore that a lot of religions have their roots in non-peaceful events and methods of conversion. Would Christianity be as widespread were it not for centuries of violence and conquest? Would Islam?

Yes and no.

[/quote]

I’m aware of Moorish expansion and the response that was required by the Christian world. Let me put it like this though. I was simply claiming that religion is very expedient for political ends, and that has been one of the main reasons certain religions are so widespread.

How do you convince someone to fight for a piece of shit city in the middle of the desert? Tell them all their sins will be absolved and they are going to heaven. (See the countless Jihads and Crusades in Jerusalem) How do you convince someone to attack a fellow Christian city without seeming greedy? Tell them they are infidels and deserve to die. (See the Fourth Crusade) How do you excuse an attempt at genocide which helped fund imperialism on a massive scale? Tell the people the victims being killed are infidels. (See the Spanish and Portugese Inquisition)

I’m aware of the tired old response that “If people didn’t rely on religion, they would just find another excuse.” Be that as it may, religion remains a convenient opium for the people in times of greed. Just look at the jihadists that this video is referring to.

12

[quote]Shoebolt wrote:
I think you should consider the facts of the religion before you consider the behaviour of it’s followers…
[/quote]

Muslims: perpetual victims to justify war and aggression.

13

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
What are you guys arguing directly with me for?

I watched a movie and summarized the points I got out of it.

You can’t argue with me without watching the movie first.

I didn’t make the movie, I watched it.

Watch and we can discuss.

I posted the link. Set aside 90 minutes, watch it, and then we’re on the same page.

Geez.

ElbowStrike[/quote]

I hardly post on T-Nation anymore, just coming for the occasional article, so how much time do you think I have to listen to a documentary that is steeped in ignorance and arrogance? I have better things to do with my time.

I’m targeting you specifically because you are the one who has watched the movie and suddenly assumed without fail that everything you have heard is true. Charisma is only a tool that any person good or bad can use to convey their message. Don’t be fooled by it.

Study, Learn and Think deeply and hard about things before you make conclusions and worst of all accuse entire populations of people of evils that no human being would in their sane state of mind justify.

This Islam + violence claim being made by all these internet chatterboxes around the world without any knowledge of Islam, it’s proofs, evidences and texts or an honest and humble approach is really dangerous, as it is an ignorant procedure that justifies actions such as genocide just like the Holocaust.

14

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Shoebolt wrote:
I think you should consider the facts of the religion before you consider the behaviour of it’s followers…

Muslims: perpetual victims to justify war and aggression. [/quote]

Yeah, let’s not bother with facts.

15

Since we’re discussing this, I figured I’d post a link for people who want to watch this film for free.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-6416332885704920966&q=Islam+what+the+west+needs+to+know&total=73&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

16

Nikiforos if you study the history of early Christianity you will find that the religion spread very well through noviolent means.

Large numbers of people who were attracted to Jesus and his message followed him into the temple where he was very popular. This is why the religious authorities felt threatened by him and put a hit out on him.

By the third century large numbers of Romans were closet Christians. When the Emporer Constantine figured this out he usurped the religion and made it the official religion of Rome.

Up until that point all the violence associated with Christianity was one way.

17

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
The spread of Christianity during the colonial period was violent, but the motive was to establish military, economic, and cultural dominance over the indigenous people and their resources, not to “spread the faith”.

The missionaries came in as a part of the dominant nations’ cultural assimilation strategy, but spreading Christianity itself was not the motivating factor of colonialism.

ElbowStrike[/quote]

The spread of Islam was violent, but the motive was to establish military, economic, and cultural dominance over the indigenous people and their resources, not to “spread the faith”.

The missionaries came in as a part of the dominant nations’ cultural assimilation strategy, but spreading Islam itself was not the motivating factor of it’s expansion.

18

No further! Or, something like that.

19

Lixy here is my proposal. The muslims have a lot of issues they need to sort out amongst themselves. When muslims who want to live in socially liberal and progressive societies can easily move into the west the pressure for reform inside muslim countries is removed and fundamentalists are strengthened.

So by allowing muslims into our homelands we are undermining reform in their homelands and at the same time they bring their problems with them.

There is a very simple mathematical formula that states that if you have zero muslims in an area you will have zero incidents of muslim extremism in that area.

So the solution is to stop all further immigration of muslims outside of the muslim world. Repatriation of large numbers might also be a good idea.

All the muslims in the west could be easily replaced by Mexicans or South Americans, who are hard working and Christian. Or Hindus from India. Or Buddists from Asia. It’s not like there aren’t people who would be eager to take their place.

20

[quote]Sifu wrote:
So the solution is to stop all further immigration of muslims outside of the muslim world. [/quote]

I was despairing nobody would bite, so let me first thank you for sharing your views.

I’m not sure I understand your point. You say “outside of the muslim world” but use the term “immigration”. It just don’t compute.

So which is it you want to stop, immigration or emigration?

What do you mean “repatriation”? There are millions of Muslims living the West. The US Department of State put the number of Muslims in France at over 6 millions. Needless to tell you that there are probably more than that in the US itself. I don’t know the exact proportions, but I’m guessing quite a lot were born in those countries and/or converted. What would you do about Keith Elisson? Throw him in the sea?

More importantly, how do you plan on circumventing the 1st Amendment?

I’m genuinely curious.