Your video links were cool, but I don’t know why you are responding to my comments by defending crossfit. Crossfit was merely a method of training mentioned in the article that I referred to in my comments.
My beef is with the article and it’s attempts to pussify weight training. I didn’t see any of those women in your videos doing bodyweight exercises alone, did you? Then they aren’t training properly, according to the article.
Oh and I know a woman who jerks over 3x her bodyweight. So what? That’s what she trains and that is where she excels. Just like Malinda and her 400lb squat. If you train for strength, you will be strong.
Training with bodyweight only just doesn’t compare and certainly isn’t the best (only) way to train as the article irresponsibly claims.
I’m not putting the smack down on crossfit, it’s the ARTICLE that I have a problem with.
[quote]sic wrote:
I never said biceps and pecs are used simultaneously, I said they aren’t the ONLY muscles used in bench.[/quote]
The bench works more than that. Really. There’s a lot more of your body involved.
The muscles involved are the triceps, anterior and middle deltoids, pectoralis major and minor, and wrist flexors (in your grip). Also, the rotator cuff and biceps work as shoulder stabilizers and are slightly strengthened with the bench press.
And that’s the fact, Jack.
But hey, I don’t like to argue about training philosophies. It’s kind of like arguing about religion and politics. You’re messin’ with a person’s core principles. If you are an avid disciple of any training routine, have found success and happiness with it, and would like to share, that’s a wonderful thing. But on the other hand if you are beating people over the head with it I can fully understand why someone might be put off, regardless of the facts.
Different strokes for different folks.
“The muscles involved are the triceps, anterior and middle deltoids, pectoralis major and minor, and wrist flexors (in your grip). Also, the rotator cuff and biceps work as shoulder stabilizers and are slightly strengthened with the bench press.”
That is obvious. The point I was making was to her blatant mentioning of the biceps in that action. They are not a predominant mover and that’s that. That statement was like saying the squat works more than just your tibialis anterior and quads…hmmmm…
“Your video links were cool, but I don’t know why you are responding to my comments by defending crossfit. Crossfit was merely a method of training mentioned in the article that I referred to in my comments.”
I was defending CrossFit because people were posting that doing CrossFit isn’t training for strength and I was trying to make a point that YES CrossFit and strength can go together.
“My beef is with the article and it’s attempts to pussify weight training. I didn’t see any of those women in your videos doing bodyweight exercises alone, did you? Then they aren’t training properly, according to the article.”
What do you expect? You found the article on MSN!!! Why do you even care what it says? For the majority of women in the world, that would be an ideal program. All but one of my female clients who were just starting weight training made the comment “I don’t want to get big. I just want to tone up.”…So, point being, the article is good for who it’s target audience is. If you want to read a real article, read something from off here and debate it, not from frikkin msn. Keep the sudience in mind before going off. I’d say it’s pretty obvious that the article is not for avid strength trainers…
I think you misinterpreted the article as well. They are not trying to “pussify” weight training, they are trying to discourage the regular joe blow gym go-er to stop using isolation machines and work on body movements that are transferable to the real world…NOT the bodybuilding world. Sorry, I just don’t agree with your beefs. The article is a good article for the audience it was intended for…Try reading it with a little less bias and I think you will see that…
[quote]dianab wrote:
That workout looks like fun.
But I just can’t see someone like Malinda who is getting close to squatting 400lbs using 16 lbs and a medicine ball to squat 21 reps with. Maybe I’m wrong, who knows…
It’s pretty obvious that the women in this forum are training for strength, however, that means different types of training for different people.
Myself, I’d give it a try, if it would help my technical snatch, I’d try anything.
db[/quote]
My hang cleans have gone from 60kg for 1 (in one set) to 60kg for 4 (thru 5 sets) and I only do the lift once per week. Not saying that was directly from CrossFit, but my recovery is definately better and I think that helps. Apparently there is a Crossfit affiliate that is dedicated to O-Lifts and P-Lifts…Not sure which one though.
We’re not even speaking the same language. You’re just determined to find fault with everything I say.
I give up. You win. Yay you!
It’s not that I am trying to find fault with everything you are saying. I am just taking a look at it with a critical eye. There is nothing wrong with trying to challenge people to critically think about what they are talking about.
[quote]sic wrote:
I give up. You win. Yay you![/quote]
Holy crap!!! Pigs are flying! Hell is freezing over!
[quote]tanimal wrote:
It’s not that I am trying to find fault with everything you are saying. I am just taking a look at it with a critical eye. There is nothing wrong with trying to challenge people to critically think about what they are talking about. [/quote]
Sic is right, though, that you are not speaking the same language. A dialogue is always great. But you do seem to be misinterpreting everything she is saying. For example, I am QUITE sure she did not say, think, or mean that bench press is a bicep exercise. No offense meant to you.
[quote]Jillybop wrote:
sic wrote:
I give up. You win. Yay you!
Holy crap!!! Pigs are flying! Hell is freezing over!
[/quote]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Hey, ya know what happens when pigs fly? It means the shit is gonna come down hard. Time to get your umbrella or wear a hat.
I wouldn’t worry about Hell, though. There’s enough musicians down there to keep the party pretty damn hot.
[quote]Yo Momma wrote:
Jillybop wrote:
sic wrote:
I give up. You win. Yay you!
Holy crap!!! Pigs are flying! Hell is freezing over!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Hey, ya know what happens when pigs fly? It means the shit is gonna come down hard. Time to get your umbrella or wear a hat.
I wouldn’t worry about Hell, though. There’s enough musicians down there to keep the party pretty damn hot.
[/quote]
Too funny!!! Tanimal do you work for crossfit or something? You seem to be taking this very personally…sic was just pointing out what the article said…
Haha NOOOO! I don’t work for Crossfit. I said about 5 times already that I only do it once per week.
Not really taking it personally. To be honest, sometimes I just speak my mind and I can come off as a really big bitch. I’m ok with that. I just think people should be more open-minded in their training perspectives. Too many people see results with one type of training mode and then religiously stick with it even once the results have slowed or stalled…
"For example, I am QUITE sure she did not say, think, or mean that bench press is a bicep exercise. No offense meant to you. "
Then what was she saying, thinking, meaning when she mentioned biceps? If you go back and read that post there isn’t really much other way to interpret it…
Besides all that, the article wasn’t implying half the things she claimed it did. Like the first poster said…Good article…I agree considering who it was meant for…It even mentioned that way to train is irrelevant for bodybuilders…or did you miss that?
I do have one more topic for debate/discussion. Why is it that “bodybuilders”, men and women, always think that “functional training” is a waste of time? Why is it that people cannot get strong and muscular from only performing compound movements? Why do bodybuilders feel that it is absolutely necessary to perform isolation exrcises as well?..C’mon, someone open it up…
[quote]tanimal wrote:
Haha NOOOO! I don’t work for Crossfit. I said about 5 times already that I only do it once per week.
Not really taking it personally. To be honest, sometimes I just speak my mind and I can come off as a really big bitch. I’m ok with that. I just think people should be more open-minded in their training perspectives. Too many people see results with one type of training mode and then religiously stick with it even once the results have slowed or stalled…
"For example, I am QUITE sure she did not say, think, or mean that bench press is a bicep exercise. No offense meant to you. "
Then what was she saying, thinking, meaning when she mentioned biceps? If you go back and read that post there isn’t really much other way to interpret it…
Besides all that, the article wasn’t implying half the things she claimed it did. Like the first poster said…Good article…I agree considering who it was meant for…It even mentioned that way to train is irrelevant for bodybuilders…or did you miss that?
I do have one more topic for debate/discussion. Why is it that “bodybuilders”, men and women, always think that “functional training” is a waste of time? Why is it that people cannot get strong and muscular from only performing compound movements? Why do bodybuilders feel that it is absolutely necessary to perform isolation exrcises as well?..C’mon, someone open it up…[/quote]
She meant that you use numerous muscles minutely in your body to stabilize when benching and not simply pecs, triceps, and shoulders. And the article was oversimplifying. Which is true. Particularly your abs also get worked when benching heavy. She didn’t mean that the bench should be thought of as a bicep exercise.
Functional and sports-specific training is far from useless. Particularly for athletes. But ‘functional’ training the way way many bandwagon trainers and lifters do it is retarded. Things like side lateral raises with low weight while balancing on a bosu ball and similar exercises.
Where the focus is almost exclusively on coordination and balance at the expense of any amount of weight lifted that is actually strenuous and taxing. Used for weeks on end at the expense of heavy compound work and appropriate isolation work as needed.
As far as compound v. isolation, most if not all succesful bodybuilders utilize compound movements heavily. And you can build a lot of muscle and strength on compound movements alone. But I think you’d be hard-pressed to find anyone who succesfully competes in bodybuilding without some isolation work.
Almost everyone is going to have some lagging areas that need to be addressed through isolation work and specialization programs if they are going to bring them up to the degree necessary to present a complete package and do well on stage.
jsbrook, I can’t believe it is taking a man to translate my comments to another woman. 
At least you know what I’m trying to say!
And I do think critically… hence the discussion on the article and it’s agenda.
[quote]tanimal wrote:
I do have one more topic for debate/discussion. Why is it that “bodybuilders”, men and women, always think that “functional training” is a waste of time? Why is it that people cannot get strong and muscular from only performing compound movements? Why do bodybuilders feel that it is absolutely necessary to perform isolation exrcises as well?..C’mon, someone open it up…[/quote]
Perhaps this discussion could be debated in the “Muscle Sorority” Forum, since most of the women who post there are figure girls and bodybuilders, who train for aesthetics.
Most of the women on this forum are strength athletes.
All we wanna do is pick up and move some heavy shit around.
If you really want a spirited discussion, bring up this topic to Professor X, he’ll open it up for ya!
[quote]sic wrote:
jsbrook, I can’t believe it is taking a man to translate my comments to another woman. At least you know what I’m trying to say!
And I do think critically… hence the discussion on the article and it’s agenda.[/quote]
Happy to relay the message anytime, Sic. Especially since I was thinking along the same lines you were!
"As far as compound v. isolation, most if not all succesful bodybuilders utilize compound movements heavily. And you can build a lot of muscle and strength on compound movements alone. But I think you’d be hard-pressed to find anyone who succesfully competes in bodybuilding without some isolation work.
Almost everyone is going to have some lagging areas that need to be addressed through isolation work and specialization programs if they are going to bring them up to the degree necessary to present a complete package and do well on stage."
That’s a good comment. Some people put way too much emphasis on having to do isolation exercises. It does depend on where you are lacking though. I don’t do any isolation exercises and I think I probably should have done more bicep curls because my biceps were lacking a little when I competed.
“If you really want a spirited discussion, bring up this topic to Professor X, he’ll open it up for ya!”
Yup! He sure does like spirited discussions…I think he’s more outspoken than I am…
There is an easy answer to your question but I’m afraid you’ll misunderstand me. Here goes anyway.
“Functional training” in it’s true form is a type of training used to prepare individuals for tasks they perform in every day life. It originated with rehabilitation work and eventually the term came to be applied to sport specific training.
A bodybuilder’s sport is his or her overall symmetrical appearance. This cannot be best achieved without the use of isolation movements that address less developed muscles in a way that compound movements do not.
Absolutely people can get strong from compound movements only. What type of training do you think strongman competitors employ? Not tricep kickbacks!
It is necessary for a bodybuilder to perform isolation work because they are attempting to reach a certain level of symmetry. Compound movements will make you strong, but they will not make you symmetrical. The reason for this is that your body likes efficiency. Your strong muscles will take over for your weaker muscles and not allow them to develop as fully.
A prime example of this is quad dominance. If your quads are your stronger muscle group you will have a difficult time developing your hamstrings, no matter how many squat or deadlift variations you employ. Individual (isolation) attention is required to bring up that lagging muscle group and make it not only equally strong, but equally visible.
Isolation work also applies to strength training as it helps with injury prevention. I doubt that anyone would think a rotator cuff exercise is a compound movement, but it sure makes your shoulders stronger and allows your bench to increase more rapidly. Benching alone will not address this weakness.
This is why some isolation exercises are necessary in both the bodybuilding and strength athlete world.