Is It Ever Okay to Hit a Woman?

Off Topic
222

[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:
What in the heck does violence against women and how they are treated in the workplace have to do with whether or not it is OK to ever hit a woman? Octobergirl, you need to go start your own thread. People please stop feeding a baseless argument. This is the same shit the media does to keep people from focusing on the issue at hand.[/quote]

I did start one. Thank you.

Not a baseless argument. Go back and read my first post.

as gregron would say, don’t jump in at the end.

223

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:
^ Other countries have women in combat. I really think we are speaking about the culture in America. [/quote]

I don’t have a problem with women in combat. I don’t walk around thinking of women as victims that need constant protection.

If things are truly equal, they need to also be in the shape and condition to do it as well.[/quote]

Agreed, that is my point. I have not been over seas only what I have read. Some of the most deadly snipers in the Vietnam war were women. Do you really think they asked her to do less pushups etc? I am saying our Culture of 100’s of years cannot be changed in a matter of years. In a generalization women are viewed physically weaker and men are viewed as protectors. Blame the bible and brother Chris.

224

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

So long as everyone is aware, it isn’t equal yet.

[/quote]

I don’t understand how it is not equal. Explain this to me? Because women don’t make as much? What is it that makes you think it is not equal if not overly advantageous to women?[/quote]

women are not allowed all jobs, men hold the majority of high paying jobs, women are discriminated against in the work field due to fertility bias. [/quote]

Of course they are not, because more men are qualified for a position than women. That is not being equal, that is being just. Average weight of a man 185, average weight of a woman 110 (maybe, not sure on this one?) (talking about people that are fit, not the over weight population). I weigh 250 right now, maybe heavier. I’d pick an average man over a woman when it comes to getting me to safety.

Men on average are analytically better than women, better at Engineering, economics, and accounting. Women have their strengths, they are better at making friendships (sales?), nurses, PR, HRM, &c. I don’t want the work force to be equal, I want the work force to have the best there is.

Men do have higher drives in certain fields. Most men are aggressive in nature, wanting to dominate other males. Women are better at playing politics in the work place.

Example, sales. Women are naturally better, the sales come easier. 85% of new women at my old place of work had a sale their first day, if not two. 85% of men took a week to two weeks to get their first sales, but routinely beat the women after a month. However, when the deadly combination of drive to dominate the men in their field and being a woman. They were in the top five in the company at the end of the sales season.

Yes, pregnancy is a big factor. However, I do not see women as less because they get pregnant. Work is not everything, family is more important. Women that are scared to have children because of their careers is strange. Not sure where it came from, but if I had a choice of family over work. I would choose family, I work to live and support my family, not the other way around.

Of course not, men and women are not equal. Never will be. However, I wouldn’t want it to be equal (which in many fields is closing in on being “equal”). I want it to be just, if a woman is over all a better choice than a man and they are the only two options, the woman should get the position. However, you shouldn’t shut out men that are more capable because you are trying to be “equal.”

Thanks for asking and not assuming, I do appreciate that. I am not a raging feminazi.

I just get a little irked when men throw out the “women want to be equal… blah blah blah…” when they are not seeing the whole picture.

[/quote]

Well, as Ducky says, “Women will never be equal, until they are equal in death.” I don’t know many men that will get out of their car if a dude is in a fight with another dude. They might stop and light up a cigarette and watch, maybe call 911. However, if a man sees another man attack a woman, more than not a man has the urge to jump out and stop the attack.

It probably is frustrating to be treated like that (I don’t see why, but I am not a woman), but just be appreciative that some men care enough to give you extra help.

I look at it from a Catholic point of view. It’s not because you are weaker, but because women hold a special place in most men’s hearts. I mean really who was it that wiped out asses and took care of us when we are sick.

Eitherway, woman make me a sammich.

225

Is it just one of those days OG? Having a bad day and so your starting arguments with anyone you can over the Internet to get the frustrations out? (90% serious question cause that s honestly what it seems like. Or just arguing for the sale of arguing)

226

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
What the hell does “being equal” mean?

This implies the assumption that all men (and here I mean the gender) are equal. Guess what, we are not. Nor are all of our experiences the same. We do not have the same access to jobs, opportunities for education, the same skills and abilities, as all other men.

Who are women wanting to be “equal” to and how is this defined?

Let me give an example. Sitting in a fancy NE private college I was listening to the female professor and two female students discuss in class how the night is gendered against women because women are prey to men in the dark. There was all sorts of academic articles supporting this.

So I asked them “How often do you see guys walking alone at night?”
Them “Occasionally”
Me “Okay, how many guys do you see that aren’t big?”
Them “Rarely”
Me “Okay, so you usually see guys in groups at night?”
Them “Yes”
Me “That’s because we know we might get jumped. This is something often learned before high school. Guys move in groups to protect themselves. So explain to me how the night is gendered?”
One female student “Most violence against women is done by men!”
Me “Sure. And the most common victim of male violence is other men.”

Followed by silence.

Professor “We should rethink some of the base assumption of these authors.”

[/quote]

not a good example. Women are also the most common victim of violence by other men and their damage is more significant and it happens more often, including where they should be safest, in their homes.

man I wish I had been in your class.

[/quote]

My point is that one way equality was being measured was freedom to walk alone at night. Not every guy has that freedom (or feels they have it).

Its either men or women as the most common victim, cannot be both. Also, most I have read is that wives abusing husbands is way under reported because of the social stigma attached to it. The term hen-pecked usually implies a level of emotional and continual verbal abuse. Though usually treated as the man’s fault.

227

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:
This thread has officially gone off the deep end.

Now it’s just pointless cause OG is arguing a point that isn’t even what the past 7 pages have been about while Prof X keeps referencing the previous discussion points.

[/quote]

Oh stop.

and I also wanted to say your friend in the Navy is a liar unless of course he went on to explain about the legal ramifications of Assault with a Deadly Weapon and the Dishonorable Discharge he received. There is no way that happened and nothing came out of it.

[/quote]

Who ever said the cops were called? You really dont know what you’re talking about and are just spouting off nonsense now.
[/quote]

I don’t believe this person would have beat a woman in on the head with a beer can and beat up a man at the party and no cops were called either at that time or the next day.

something missing in that story
[/quote]

You must not go to many parties…all the parties that I’ve been at…or all the ones that I’ve heard about that I couldn’t go to…that had shit go down, cops have never been called, unless neighbors called for whatever reason.

Most of the time, at parties like that, where things are rowdy enough to have violence, no one there wants the cops. There’s underage drinking, drugs, or some other kind of illegal activities and no one is going to call the cops because, while some asshole who started a fight might go to jail for the night, so will a lot of other people.

228

[quote]gregron wrote:
Is it just one of those days OG? Having a bad day and so your starting arguments with anyone you can over the Internet to get the frustrations out? (90% serious question cause that s honestly what it seems like. Or just arguing for the sale of arguing)[/quote]

I will answer your question seriously. I don’t consider it starting an argument.

About your friends situation, greg, I really think it is hooey. I live in a military town, I’ve grown up on military bases, there is just no way that is the story. If I am wrong then I am wrong, I just don’t think I am.

Do you mean my posts in the thread? What makes it an argument? Because I am not agreeing or because I am presenting an opposing view point? Isn’t that a discussion otherwise it would just all be mutual agreement?

Did you see me slinging any mud like some of the people on here? Nope. I left that to apparently the people you don’t consider causing an argument and responding as appropriate to the thread, at least in your opinion.

229

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
What the hell does “being equal” mean?

This implies the assumption that all men (and here I mean the gender) are equal. Guess what, we are not. Nor are all of our experiences the same. We do not have the same access to jobs, opportunities for education, the same skills and abilities, as all other men.

Who are women wanting to be “equal” to and how is this defined?

Let me give an example. Sitting in a fancy NE private college I was listening to the female professor and two female students discuss in class how the night is gendered against women because women are prey to men in the dark. There was all sorts of academic articles supporting this.

So I asked them “How often do you see guys walking alone at night?”
Them “Occasionally”
Me “Okay, how many guys do you see that aren’t big?”
Them “Rarely”
Me “Okay, so you usually see guys in groups at night?”
Them “Yes”
Me “That’s because we know we might get jumped. This is something often learned before high school. Guys move in groups to protect themselves. So explain to me how the night is gendered?”
One female student “Most violence against women is done by men!”
Me “Sure. And the most common victim of male violence is other men.”

Followed by silence.

Professor “We should rethink some of the base assumption of these authors.”

[/quote]

not a good example. Women are also the most common victim of violence by other men and their damage is more significant and it happens more often, including where they should be safest, in their homes.

man I wish I had been in your class.

[/quote]

Why?

So you could spout unchecked assumptions?

Patterns are found within the victimology of crime in the United States. Overall, the financially disadvantaged, males, those younger than 25 and non Whites were more likely to fall victim to crime. Income, sex and age had the most dramatic effect on the chances of a person being victimized by crime, while the characteristic of race depended upon the crime being committed.[citation needed]

In 2005, 2.7% of African Americans became the victim of a violent crime, compared to 2.0% of Whites. African Americans were overall 35% more likely to sustain a violent crime. The likelihood of being murdered was drastically higher for African Americans.[23] In 2004 African Americans constituted roughly 13.4% of the general population,[24] yet, nearly half, 49%, of all murder victims in 2005 were African American.

Sexual assault and rape rates were roughly the same for all races. Whites and African Americans also had approximately the same chances of falling victim to simple assaults.

In terms of gender, males were more likely to become crime victims than were females, with 79% percent of all murder victims being male. Males were also twice as likely to be carjacked as were females.

In terms of income, households with a 2008 annual income of less than $15,000 were significantly more likely to have their homes burgled.[25]

Concerning age, those younger than twenty-five were more likely to fall victim to crime, especially violent crime. The chances of being victimized by violent crime decreased far more substantially with age than the chances of becoming the victim of property crime. For example, 3.03% of crimes committed against a young person were theft, while 20% of crimes committed against an elderly person were theft. Thus, one can conclude that the probability of becoming a violent crime victim decreases as income and age increase, in addition to being lower for European Americans and females.[23]

Seems to me if you are looking for trouble you better be a poor, young, black man.

230

…a little off topic…

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
…
I’ve been punched in the face by one other ex [who I also lived with. Maybe there’s a pattern there] …[/quote]

yes man there is a pattern

You are staying in relationships with women who disrespect you. Seems to me that you are ignoring the Red-Flags about their character that show up early in the relationship, and keep them around.

The solution is to qualify your women. So if early in dating you see this girl giving you attitude about little stuff, DO NOT date her again.

231

[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:
What in the heck does violence against women and how they are treated in the workplace have to do with whether or not it is OK to ever hit a woman? Octobergirl, you need to go start your own thread. People please stop feeding a baseless argument. This is the same shit the media does to keep people from focusing on the issue at hand.

Edit: Never mind. I see you already did. Thank you.[/quote]

It actually is relevant if you want to talk about the double standard. It exists because of historical violence against women. Right or wrong.

(not arguing anything, just pointing that out)

232

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:
What in the heck does violence against women and how they are treated in the workplace have to do with whether or not it is OK to ever hit a woman? Octobergirl, you need to go start your own thread. People please stop feeding a baseless argument. This is the same shit the media does to keep people from focusing on the issue at hand.[/quote]

I did start one. Thank you.

Not a baseless argument. Go back and read my first post.

as gregron would say, don’t jump in at the end.

[/quote]

I read ALL your posts. You got further and further left the more you posted. Just because others let you lead them away from the nexus of the discussion doesn’t mean what you had to say had anything to do with where it started.

233

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
What the hell does “being equal” mean?

This implies the assumption that all men (and here I mean the gender) are equal. Guess what, we are not. Nor are all of our experiences the same. We do not have the same access to jobs, opportunities for education, the same skills and abilities, as all other men.

Who are women wanting to be “equal” to and how is this defined?

Let me give an example. Sitting in a fancy NE private college I was listening to the female professor and two female students discuss in class how the night is gendered against women because women are prey to men in the dark. There was all sorts of academic articles supporting this.

So I asked them “How often do you see guys walking alone at night?”
Them “Occasionally”
Me “Okay, how many guys do you see that aren’t big?”
Them “Rarely”
Me “Okay, so you usually see guys in groups at night?”
Them “Yes”
Me “That’s because we know we might get jumped. This is something often learned before high school. Guys move in groups to protect themselves. So explain to me how the night is gendered?”
One female student “Most violence against women is done by men!”
Me “Sure. And the most common victim of male violence is other men.”

Followed by silence.

Professor “We should rethink some of the base assumption of these authors.”

[/quote]

not a good example. Women are also the most common victim of violence by other men and their damage is more significant and it happens more often, including where they should be safest, in their homes.

man I wish I had been in your class.

[/quote]

My point is that one way equality was being measured was freedom to walk alone at night. Not every guy has that freedom (or feels they have it).

Its either men or women as the most common victim, cannot be both. Also, most I have read is that wives abusing husbands is way under reported because of the social stigma attached to it. The term hen-pecked usually implies a level of emotional and continual verbal abuse. Though usually treated as the man’s fault.[/quote]

But that isn’t the point.

Who do you think is more likely to be attacked while walking alone at night?

If it is under-reported every statistic is a guess. Not saying it doesn’t happen, but I sure hope you aren’t suggesting it is at the level it is for women. Women are hen-pecked also by emotional and mental abuse.

Rape is under reported also.

234

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
What the hell does “being equal” mean?

This implies the assumption that all men (and here I mean the gender) are equal. Guess what, we are not. Nor are all of our experiences the same. We do not have the same access to jobs, opportunities for education, the same skills and abilities, as all other men.

Who are women wanting to be “equal” to and how is this defined?

Let me give an example. Sitting in a fancy NE private college I was listening to the female professor and two female students discuss in class how the night is gendered against women because women are prey to men in the dark. There was all sorts of academic articles supporting this.

So I asked them “How often do you see guys walking alone at night?”
Them “Occasionally”
Me “Okay, how many guys do you see that aren’t big?”
Them “Rarely”
Me “Okay, so you usually see guys in groups at night?”
Them “Yes”
Me “That’s because we know we might get jumped. This is something often learned before high school. Guys move in groups to protect themselves. So explain to me how the night is gendered?”
One female student “Most violence against women is done by men!”
Me “Sure. And the most common victim of male violence is other men.”

Followed by silence.

Professor “We should rethink some of the base assumption of these authors.”

[/quote]

not a good example. Women are also the most common victim of violence by other men and their damage is more significant and it happens more often, including where they should be safest, in their homes.

man I wish I had been in your class.

[/quote]

Why?

So you could spout unchecked assumptions?

Patterns are found within the victimology of crime in the United States. Overall, the financially disadvantaged, males, those younger than 25 and non Whites were more likely to fall victim to crime. Income, sex and age had the most dramatic effect on the chances of a person being victimized by crime, while the characteristic of race depended upon the crime being committed.[citation needed]

In 2005, 2.7% of African Americans became the victim of a violent crime, compared to 2.0% of Whites. African Americans were overall 35% more likely to sustain a violent crime. The likelihood of being murdered was drastically higher for African Americans.[23] In 2004 African Americans constituted roughly 13.4% of the general population,[24] yet, nearly half, 49%, of all murder victims in 2005 were African American.

Sexual assault and rape rates were roughly the same for all races. Whites and African Americans also had approximately the same chances of falling victim to simple assaults.

In terms of gender, males were more likely to become crime victims than were females, with 79% percent of all murder victims being male. Males were also twice as likely to be carjacked as were females.

In terms of income, households with a 2008 annual income of less than $15,000 were significantly more likely to have their homes burgled.[25]

Concerning age, those younger than twenty-five were more likely to fall victim to crime, especially violent crime. The chances of being victimized by violent crime decreased far more substantially with age than the chances of becoming the victim of property crime. For example, 3.03% of crimes committed against a young person were theft, while 20% of crimes committed against an elderly person were theft. Thus, one can conclude that the probability of becoming a violent crime victim decreases as income and age increase, in addition to being lower for European Americans and females.[23]

Seems to me if you are looking for trouble you better be a poor, young, black man.
[/quote]

You found something to support your side of an argument on the internet, that isn’t surprising. If I wanted to Google I could find something supporting my side also.

There is no way it is safer for a woman to walk alone at night.

235

[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:
What in the heck does violence against women and how they are treated in the workplace have to do with whether or not it is OK to ever hit a woman? Octobergirl, you need to go start your own thread. People please stop feeding a baseless argument. This is the same shit the media does to keep people from focusing on the issue at hand.[/quote]

I did start one. Thank you.

Not a baseless argument. Go back and read my first post.

as gregron would say, don’t jump in at the end.

[/quote]

I read ALL your posts. You got further and further left the more you posted. Just because others let you lead them away from the nexus of the discussion doesn’t mean what you had to say had anything to do with where it started. [/quote]

Read the posts. If I went far afield it was because of the posts I was responding to, not that I took it that way. So if you want to tell someone to stay on topic, go to them.

236

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:
What in the heck does violence against women and how they are treated in the workplace have to do with whether or not it is OK to ever hit a woman? Octobergirl, you need to go start your own thread. People please stop feeding a baseless argument. This is the same shit the media does to keep people from focusing on the issue at hand.[/quote]

I did start one. Thank you.

Not a baseless argument. Go back and read my first post.

as gregron would say, don’t jump in at the end.

[/quote]

I read ALL your posts. You got further and further left the more you posted. Just because others let you lead them away from the nexus of the discussion doesn’t mean what you had to say had anything to do with where it started. [/quote]

Read the posts. If I went far afield it was because of the posts I was responding to, not that I took it that way. So if you want to tell someone to stay on topic, go to them.

[/quote]

I did. I chastised you and them.

237

[quote]Neospartan wrote:
…a little off topic…

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
…
I’ve been punched in the face by one other ex [who I also lived with. Maybe there’s a pattern there] …[/quote]

yes man there is a pattern

You are staying in relationships with women who disrespect you. Seems to me that you are ignoring the Red-Flags about their character that show up early in the relationship, and keep them around.

The solution is to qualify your women. So if early in dating you see this girl giving you attitude about little stuff, DO NOT date her again.

[/quote]

No offense man but you have no idea of what you’re talking about. This has been after living with someone so we’d been dating for a good while and alcohol was involved in both cases. Trust me, I’m the last dude to put up with some chicken heads shit. You’re coming to a conclusion based off of a very small amount of information.

238

[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:
What in the heck does violence against women and how they are treated in the workplace have to do with whether or not it is OK to ever hit a woman? Octobergirl, you need to go start your own thread. People please stop feeding a baseless argument. This is the same shit the media does to keep people from focusing on the issue at hand.[/quote]

I did start one. Thank you.

Not a baseless argument. Go back and read my first post.

as gregron would say, don’t jump in at the end.

[/quote]

I read ALL your posts. You got further and further left the more you posted. Just because others let you lead them away from the nexus of the discussion doesn’t mean what you had to say had anything to do with where it started. [/quote]

Read the posts. If I went far afield it was because of the posts I was responding to, not that I took it that way. So if you want to tell someone to stay on topic, go to them.

[/quote]

I did. I chastised you and them. [/quote]

How silly of you. Chastising must only work on the women you know and I guess the men.

239

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
What the hell does “being equal” mean?

This implies the assumption that all men (and here I mean the gender) are equal. Guess what, we are not. Nor are all of our experiences the same. We do not have the same access to jobs, opportunities for education, the same skills and abilities, as all other men.

Who are women wanting to be “equal” to and how is this defined?

Let me give an example. Sitting in a fancy NE private college I was listening to the female professor and two female students discuss in class how the night is gendered against women because women are prey to men in the dark. There was all sorts of academic articles supporting this.

So I asked them “How often do you see guys walking alone at night?”
Them “Occasionally”
Me “Okay, how many guys do you see that aren’t big?”
Them “Rarely”
Me “Okay, so you usually see guys in groups at night?”
Them “Yes”
Me “That’s because we know we might get jumped. This is something often learned before high school. Guys move in groups to protect themselves. So explain to me how the night is gendered?”
One female student “Most violence against women is done by men!”
Me “Sure. And the most common victim of male violence is other men.”

Followed by silence.

Professor “We should rethink some of the base assumption of these authors.”

[/quote]

not a good example. Women are also the most common victim of violence by other men and their damage is more significant and it happens more often, including where they should be safest, in their homes.

man I wish I had been in your class.

[/quote]

My point is that one way equality was being measured was freedom to walk alone at night. Not every guy has that freedom (or feels they have it).

Its either men or women as the most common victim, cannot be both. Also, most I have read is that wives abusing husbands is way under reported because of the social stigma attached to it. The term hen-pecked usually implies a level of emotional and continual verbal abuse. Though usually treated as the man’s fault.[/quote]

Men are the most common victims of both verbal and physical domestic violence but they often don’t report it. The biggest problem in my opinion is that if an officer does come to handle the situation and a man was slapped by a woman then he hit her in return that man most likely wont show signs of physical contact and the woman will. The officer has to use those bruises, cuts, or red marks to make his decision and will side with a person who’s those signs of abuse.

240

[quote]goldengloves wrote:
Men are the most common victims of both verbal and physical domestic violence but they often don’t report it. The biggest problem in my opinion is that if an officer does come to handle the situation and a man was slapped by a woman then he hit her in return that man most likely wont show signs of physical contact and the woman will. The officer has to use those bruises, cuts, or red marks to make his decision and will side with a person who’s those signs of abuse.

[/quote]

I don’t know where you are, but in San Diego if it is mutual combat even without visible signs, both parties are taken away.

241

[quote]goldengloves wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
What the hell does “being equal” mean?

This implies the assumption that all men (and here I mean the gender) are equal. Guess what, we are not. Nor are all of our experiences the same. We do not have the same access to jobs, opportunities for education, the same skills and abilities, as all other men.

Who are women wanting to be “equal” to and how is this defined?

Let me give an example. Sitting in a fancy NE private college I was listening to the female professor and two female students discuss in class how the night is gendered against women because women are prey to men in the dark. There was all sorts of academic articles supporting this.

So I asked them “How often do you see guys walking alone at night?”
Them “Occasionally”
Me “Okay, how many guys do you see that aren’t big?”
Them “Rarely”
Me “Okay, so you usually see guys in groups at night?”
Them “Yes”
Me “That’s because we know we might get jumped. This is something often learned before high school. Guys move in groups to protect themselves. So explain to me how the night is gendered?”
One female student “Most violence against women is done by men!”
Me “Sure. And the most common victim of male violence is other men.”

Followed by silence.

Professor “We should rethink some of the base assumption of these authors.”

[/quote]

not a good example. Women are also the most common victim of violence by other men and their damage is more significant and it happens more often, including where they should be safest, in their homes.

man I wish I had been in your class.

[/quote]

My point is that one way equality was being measured was freedom to walk alone at night. Not every guy has that freedom (or feels they have it).

Its either men or women as the most common victim, cannot be both. Also, most I have read is that wives abusing husbands is way under reported because of the social stigma attached to it. The term hen-pecked usually implies a level of emotional and continual verbal abuse. Though usually treated as the man’s fault.[/quote]

Men are the most common victims of both verbal and physical domestic violence but they often don’t report it. The biggest problem in my opinion is that if an officer does come to handle the situation and a man was slapped by a woman then he hit her in return that man most likely wont show signs of physical contact and the woman will. The officer has to use those bruises, cuts, or red marks to make his decision and will side with a person who’s those signs of abuse.

[/quote]

SO if it is under reported how do you know it actually happens? Something personal you want to share?