[quote]Scrotus wrote:
kmcnyc wrote:
Scrotus wrote:
kmcnyc wrote:
Scrotus wrote:
They could do a westside inspired setup(WS4SB etc), to build max strength, and explosive strenght in under 4 hrs a week. Then use the other 25-35 hours to work on wrestling technique, conditioning, technique and more conditioning.
Your getting confused between the sports. Apples and oranges.
West side is great, if you are a powerlifter and it works
nothing is wrong with west side at all if its your sport.
How many true west side participants are interested in weighting 142 pounds?
Wrestlers don’t need to concentrate on Max Effort like that at all.
O-lifts serve them far far better. there are only 2 or 3 weight classes
close to or above 200 lbs, hypertrophy, huge strength and growth
not really on these athletes minds.
From experience , mine, I can tell you that a very fast paced lactic acid work out paired with a day of heavier cleans, hang- cleans, push-press,
a bunch of rows, a couple of squats. bulgarian squats is probably all they need.
kmc
I didnt say westside as in squat, DL, bench press, I didnt say anything about certain lifts, westside only means maximum effort and dynamic effort. You could do that with heavy sandbag lifts(more wrestler specific than holding a barbell in any degree) and pull-ups. Doing lactic acid training is fine, however wrestlers do unlimited piles of that shit(looking at my original post lactic acid training was 25-35 out of 30-40 hours) during the rest of their practice and probably dont need to further that slightly to the detriment of max strength and explosiveness.
One thing ME lifts teach you is how to strain, if you arent straining you arent gaining(ok kindof a joke but couldnt help it there) and straining is a good part of wrestling. Also, you can’t lift your way out of a weightclass, you have to eat your way out. Maybe you should research something before you put the kibosh on it, Eric Talmont is 165, Brian Schwab is also 165, Kroc has sub 8 bodyfat. You cant just look at Dave(or Jackass, Big Mike, etc) when he had a powerbloat and say westside makes you fat.
fair enough, no need to get excited… I did not say westside makes you fat, you did. And I did not knock west side.
let me reiterate there are better techniques then westside
or what the Iowa video showed, or what I did in DIV 3 and DIV I
wrestling 15 years ago.
and you can certainly lift yourself out of a weight class.
its called gaining muscle it happens.
big weights sometimes they make big muscles.
appened to a team mate.
4 pounds or 6 pound will move the little guys up and your still growing
I grew 4 or 5 inches post wrestling ( in my twenties)
when I wrestled, they had 3 more weight clases. they combined a few to make it easier, and they did not want people cutting to under 125 lbs.
if you have ever done a big set of anything your are straining.
fair enough when somone says west side I would automatically assume the big three, bench squat, and DL, . the technique works, and it kicks ass.
lets not kid, but I dont think you can apply it to other sports with the sucess your are suggesting.
but in reality … we are kind of saying the same thing
fast, and heavy.
I disagree about the max efforts or the one rep business.
Its good for progess, but its really not sport specific.
in this case.
Or better yet, the iowa video is kind of bad, but they are a week away from
end of season tournament- I would say max efforts have their place
pre , post and off season.
kmc
They could do a 3-5 RM, the weightroom is not SPP, its GPP. You did imply that westside makes you fat(or gain weight), with the only 2 weightclasses above 200 business and no westsiders trying to be 142. I dont know if its best for wrestling but athletes trying to avoid natural growth seems foolish to me, and unhealthy.
Ill tell you what, start eating 1100 calories a day and start doing a westside template workout. See how long it takes you to get to 200. Your workout will only build muscle if you supply yourself with enough calories and protein, and other nutrients to grow. The wrestlers I knew in High School were absolutely nuts with there making weight stuff. I know for a fact the measures that they take is not healthy, and quite extreme. You could have them doing any High Volume, high intensity or whatever lifting program, they would go balls out nuts on it and still would stay in their appropriate weightclass unless their coach said to go up. Your body is only capable of building itself up if it gets enough of the right nutrients +calories etc.
You could do the hardcorest weightloss plan ever, but still eat 15,000 calories a day you’ll gain weight.
What is funny is if you go to the BB forum you can’t get any hypertrophy from westside, there just isn’t enough volume they say, but you are over here saying that regardless of caloric intake, the extreme measures wrestlers take, the 25+ hours a week of conditioning (compared to 4 hours of lifting at most) that westside would make the athletes just explode out of their respective weightclasses.
What I am saying is that they should be doing a safe, organized progressive system which would take the already tremendously gifted athletes and help them to become more efficient at recruiting the largest and most powerful MU to improve their strength, with out jeopardizing their joints or going to the weightroom to do redundant, non-specific work.
Anyways, whatever they are doing is apparently working but that is one aspect that may be worth experimenting with.
[/quote]
Scrotus
and others-
allot of good info to chew on…
thanks
I did misundstand the platform of westside- vs. it being integral to the the lifts themselves. I see it as an end to a means-
some of the best training to execute the big lifts. with BIG numbers
I forget you could apply that to other lifting-training
Thanks for the clarification.
I think the deal with this is I am not a strenght coach.
And most of you guys know more about strength then me.
I am only speaking on expirience. My own. what I did what is common
and what worked or did not work.
I agree with your most of what you said, I think we are saying the same thing ? - I may lack the strenght training vocabulary to say so.
but Yes - maximum recruitment- progressing and yes avoiding injury and non specific lifting. and yes redundancy
I think we could go for days to disscuss which specifically would be better
and Yes I admit all the routines I followed much like the video
had pleny of redundancy. but that is how we do/did everything
As far as exploding out of a weight class-
I aleady said it happened to my friend - puberty, weights increased
muscle - hard to avoid without starving.
for me, as I was a tiny guy by most strength standards at my heaviest in
competition was 140. My freshmen year I cut to 118.5 to be a starter.
If I was not going to start - it would be no question to cut.
Another pound or two even if it was good muscle would have made that much more unpleasent
I am talking a 12 to 13 pound cut on a 140 lb athelete 2 to 3 times a week complete with weekly urine tests hydration tests and weighins-
day of hour or two before the gig. So yes that would be starving
very different from other atheletes- who have a greater freedom
in there trainging.
would doing a higher volume of weights - than the one I was doing
put me out of a weight class probably. Only because of extreme cutting.
Also this is 15 years ago that I am refering too, not too many coaches
were not big on lifting. Particularly with little guys.
Only when I got to DIV 1 did we have a “guy” who guided us through
our “regiemen”
Later when I did greco- or in Colorado at the US OTC did I do any serious lifing- with a coach from europe who had a very organized program with different stuff for each athelete.
what would have been more accurate is for me to say on top of the other stuff we did a higher volume of work might have made recovery harder.
So we are saying the same thing??? and maybe disagreeing on
what might work the best on paper.
I think “high” reps in the weight room
for us were 8 "low " 3 maybe 5 I dont think we ever did singles…
and I think it was all “fast” I dont think there was a different way.
I dont think we had a name to what we did.
So yeah I can learn…
lets ask this question how many atheletes
are using a ws4sb inspired program
- (not realy numbers hypothetically)
for track and field or other sports that dont involve or revolve around
powerlifting. Maybe that is what got my hackles up .
just like it seemed that I was knocking it offended others.
blah, blah blah… thanks for the info-
kmc
