Bill Roberts, Catecholamines and Carbs Pari-Workout?

Diet and Nutrition
1

I use 200 mg. caffeine (+ Alpha-GPC, Power Drive, and Rhodiola) 1 1/2 hours before I work out. I also use carbs/protein (Surge Recovery/PeptoPro) both before and during my workout. Do you think the caffeine (and Power Drive), due to increased release of catecholimines, will impair insulin sensitivity, and thus the anabolic/anti-catabolic effects I’m trying to elicit from the insulin and protein?

P.S. Here’s What Seth Roberts had to say:
Possibly but so would high intensity physical activity which is why I prefer a post workout carb induced insulin spike and refeed as opposed to pre or during workout.

Thanks so much for your time,

Crowbar

2

Whether your question could be answered from existing research would really depend on whether there has been research that is under close enough conditions to what you’re concerned with to be relevant. Too often people extrapolate some study that is under quite different conditions, but the extrapolation doesn’t work.

So in other words, as you suspect it’s not as simple as if anything increases catecholamines, then this will be incompatible with a paraworkout nutrition plan.

Although it’s limited to only my individual case, I don’t believe that there is a problem with doing as you say because I have followed Coach Thibaudeau’s protocol both with the addition of Power Drive (which I prefer to use) and caffeine in the form of Spike Shooter or HOT-ROX Extreme, and without them. And I am absolutely positive that in my own instance there were only positives to including them.

I did used to believe as Seth Roberts says above with regard to a post-workout insulin spike, but I have concluded that Christian Thibaudeau is correct that loading sufficiently beforehand (and I would say also having some during, if a longer workout) is superior, and then no immediate spike afterwards is needed.

3

Edit: Bill beat me to it (covered my 1,2,&3), but I left this little gem:

  1. Don’t sweat the little stuff.

Seriously. One of the biggest mistakes most people make is trying to major in the minors.

Worrying about their fuckin’ calf raise weights instead of their deadlift.

4

Guys, I appreciate your responses. Ghost, with all due respect, I’ve been at this 25 years. I’m fully aware that effort trumphs obsessing over minor details; however, I don’t consider developing an optimal peri-workout protocol to be sweating the small stuff. If something were to have a significant effect on insulin sensitivity (especially since I don’t consider myself to have the best), I would want to avoid this if I were simultaneously ingesting high glycemic carbs.

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5

If you can replace the caffeine with green organic tea that would be ideal.

But if you continue to have caffeine better skip the pre-workout carbs.

But do try to have ground cinnamon with all your protein shakes, and green veggies (with a little apple cider vinegar) with every meal.

6

Well, let’s stop and think about this.

Very, very many BB’ers and strength trainers have been consuming pre-workout carbs for many years.

And very, very many of them sometimes use caffeine also and sometimes do not.

If there were some important difference in outcome, why has it not been noticed? (Or do you claim that it has been: if so why do you claim that: what is your basis?)

It seems to me that everyone who says as you do is doing so not from the basis of anyone ever actually being able to see a positive mass or body composition benefit to omitting the caffeine, but from taking a scientific study that in fact is under different circumstances and is measuring a different outcome and extrapolating from that.

7

Bill, I do see your point. What about the effect of ingesting carbs peri-workout on the body’s substrate utilization during the workout: I assume, of course, that you will then be utilizing those ingested carbs for energy. So, from a body fat loss point of view would it perhaps be beneficial to utilize carbs only after a workout, thus forcing the body to utilize lipids for energy during the workout; or do you believe that, for example, the increased workout energy/intensity from ingesting the pari-workout carbs would more than compensate for less fat utilization during the workout (as through increased EPOC)?

Crowbar

8

I think fasted exercise is only really recommended for low intensity cardio. And even that it’s not really necessary.

High intensity exercise (lifting or cardio) is likely to blast through the energy that could be provided from fat oxidation and begin consuming muscle glycogen and protein.

I think.

9

I’ve never been able to follow why it would be the case that the same daily total (let us say, so as to keep things equal) of each macronutrient should yield better fat loss if “feeding” the muscles before and during the workout is avoided.

While on the other hand, it doesn’t seem unreasonable that dietary energy/substrate availability immediately prior to and being absorbed at the time of workout might result in a greater tendency of that to be apportioned to metabolism in muscle (whether entirely to be burned, or also towards anabolism or repair) than might be the case in the rest state.

More importantly, from the practical aspect I don’t think it is so that it is advantageous to reduce energy/substrate intake and absorption shortly prior to and/or during the workout – for any given daily total – whether limiting only carbs or limiting everything. Even if the goal is fat loss.

10

I do believe carbs post-workout would be less beneficial that carbs pre-workout. This is due to the fact that you are very insulin resistant post-workout. This would cause more of those carbs to be stored as fat instead of burning them off as energy during you workout when taken before.

Not what you would want for fat loss goals. Burn your fat during morning fasted-cardio instead.

Edit: Looks like Rhino and Roberts already got there.

11

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
More importantly, from the practical aspect I don’t think it is so that it is advantageous to reduce energy/substrate intake and absorption shortly prior to and/or during the workout – for any given daily total – whether limiting only carbs or limiting everything. Even if the sole goal is fat loss.
[/quote]

x2

I’ll take the improved workout performance I experience due to peri-workout carb ingestion and simply restrict my intake throughout the rest of the day if required.

12

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I’ve never been able to follow why it would be the case that the same daily total (let us say, so as to keep things equal) of each macronutrient should yield better fat loss if “feeding” the muscles before and during the workout is avoided.

While on the other hand, it doesn’t seem unreasonable that dietary energy/substrate availability immediately prior to and being absorbed at the time of workout might result in a greater tendency of that to be apportioned to metabolism in muscle (whether entirely to be burned, or also towards anabolism or repair) than might be the case in the rest state.

More importantly, from the practical aspect I don’t think it is so that it is advantageous to reduce energy/substrate intake and absorption shortly prior to and/or during the workout – for any given daily total – whether limiting only carbs or limiting everything. Even if the goal is fat loss.

[/quote]

First, let me make it clear that I’m not advocating for one particular position here; really just thinking through something that seems not completely resolved. With that said: I’m not really talking about fasted workouts as I eat a pre-workout meal ~3 hours before training (any closer and I don’t feel I’ve sufficiently digested whole food). At this point, being on a fat loss phase it’s true that meal would contain little/no carbs.

It seems that by using the caffeine and Power Drive to ellicit greater catecholimine levels prior to physical activity, you are causing the body to release free fatty acids which could then be preferentially used to fuel your training, leaving the carbs/protein ingested after training to be used for repair and replenishing any slight loss in glycogen levels.

Of course, I see an immediate problem with this reasoning: substrate utilization is determined first by intensity, then duration. During dieting I use brief (~45 min.), short rest interval, high intensity (lower rep) training–just the type that is going to preferentially utilize glucose for ATP production. Avoiding the use of carbs peri-workout would probably only serve to hamper the intensity possible in training, as fatty acids can be used to generate a lot more ATP than glucose, but at a much slower rate.

So…I guess using carbs peri-workout will allow you to train more intensely–which they will–and the increased “oxygen debt” (EPOC) from the higher intensity training will serve to increase metabolic rate to a greater degree and for a longer duration afterwards than if you had relied on fatty acids as a primary fuel source.

Well, thanks for giving me a good sounding board,

Crowbar

13

Sure thing. It’s a good topic.

14

[quote]cueball wrote:
I do believe carbs post-workout would be less beneficial that carbs pre-workout. This is due to the fact that you are very insulin resistant post-workout. This would cause more of those carbs to be stored as fat instead of burning them off as energy during you workout when taken before.

Not what you would want for fat loss goals. Burn your fat during morning fasted-cardio instead.

Edit: Looks like Rhino and Roberts already got there.
[/quote]

Is it just me, or did the whole insulin resistant post-workout thing only start being advocated around 6 months ago. Wasn’t the post-workout window when we were supposed to be super-d-duper insulin sensitive. Isn’t that what Berardi was saying since day 1? Berardi seems like the type of guy who would know about catecholamine release, and not simply overlook it. Am I wrong here? I feel like I am taking crazy pills.

15

ajweins, I can’t blame you for being confused. In my opinion the whole 2 hour post training window is overemphasized. research actually indicates that insulin sensitivity is hightened for ~48 hrs. post workout. Now it may be true that the first 2 hours your insulin sensitivity is particularly high; however, Your catecholimine levels are also going to be elevated post workout. In fact, I wait 1 hour post training before I consume my protein shake (PeptoPro/L-Leucine). This practice originally came from an old article here by David Barr, who related research showing that post training FSR (protein synthesis rates)were higher in those weight trainers who waited 1 hour post training to consume their shakes. Whether or not this has to do with catecholimine levels being elevated immediately post training I can’t say, be it does seem possible.

The problem is with an area such as this I suspect there isn’t that much solid research attempting to differentiate between what has been established as effective, and the newer peri-workout protocols. I just believe, as in any area of science, ideas advance and we may be seeing a fundamental shift in the way people will view nutrition in the time period surrounding their training. only time–and hopefully some solid research–will tell.

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