Inno-Sport Thread

Training Powerlifting
41

See, I understood that post. It was very good actually. And I do think there are some gems to be extracted from the book. No criticism here of the concepts. All I’m saying is it’s written so convoluted that it seems they are TRYING to make it hard to get any applicable info from it. And that is frustrating. Give it to us straight. I’m not a 9th grade reader. I’m a professional and I know that the most complicated topics in the world can be conveyed, by great instructors, in such a way that they seem simple and are easily understood. Aghh, whatever, the complaint is this.

  1. WE ain’t got all year to study this book and we’re INTO this shit. What about an athlete who is, well, not the sharpest tool in the shed?
  2. It’s like they’re trying to keep their info secret by making it difficult. So they have some good ideas for getting faster. Great, but it’s not like you cured a cancer or isolated a sub-atomic particle. Just give us some examples of real athletes and their workouts.
  3. I’m a nerd. I understood Siff and Verkoshansky. This book is not written well. They should do a better one. You admit it’s not well written.
    Hell, I’m helping them. They’ll sell a shitload of these if they just present information more clearly and with the intent that athletes can apply it without having a lot of questions or having to study it and reference other texts.

I am interested in what inno-sport has to say as I agree that most people stay in the MaxS area their whole life and never move down the curve. They seem to say they know the best way to do that. I’d like to see it presented more clearly with some specifics. I even emailed them to schedule a personl consult to get questions answered and never heard from them. Oh well.

[quote]Jumanji wrote:
Rick~

Why are you addressing me as if I am marketing anything? I am not Inno-Sport, I am not DB or Brad or whoever.

The insinuation was that if you have a bunch of fancy-pants letters after your name, and you are supposedly a guru of training, then the book provided a wealth of information… a wealth.

Well written? Probably not. Full of awesome ideas? Absolutely.

And if a trainer felt that there was nothing inside the book, well, I would truly have to wonder about that trainer… unless they were just training guys who wanted to add mass or strength. (But even strength is well detailed in a roundabout manner.)

To say the book didn’t provide a completely different take on reaping performance gains from training, and was somehow not in line with most of what the guys like Siff have said, would be ignorant. Very.

There is a reason why the book is so highly debated. It goes in the face of common practice in the US. (Plus, the DB Challenge was based on strength gained, not rate perfromance. Interesting since this is what most modern guys preach is king, and say they are so good at producing… hmmm.)

Now, I do feel that the book was fairly tough to read, but so was Siff, and so is Verkoshansky. But then again, I was pretty nerdy back in school, so I can understand why it was insurmountable. Written well? No. Very interesting take on training…? Yes, very.

But, if the idea that the training methodology is somehow skewed, because it was written in a manner you don’t approve of… well, try again.

From my own understanding, Inno-Sport is highly dedicated to working the portion of the force time curve that actually increases power the most within the ballistic and rate portion of the curve.

If you refer to Siff, you will see that by training MaxS and Strength-Speed, you can raise power output for the entire curve, but the biggest gains in power output near the rate end are through strength speed training.

So, MaxS and Strength Speed potentiate speed and ballistic power gains, but don’t ensure them.

For this to happen, work must continue along the curve towards rate. This conversion is basically a neuromuscular programming which increases proficiency in using your strength in a dynamic fashion. This is why classic coaches always have the age old power cycle before the season…to increase the proficiency of explosively using the new strength.

Well, the story gets better. From what I can tell, Brad and the boys asked themselves why certain athletes were so proficient at using strength and others were not… in other words, why all you white guys can’t jump… or run… and get picked last in pick-up basketball, etc.

Why is it that this athlete squats 1.5 X BW and this other athlete squats 2.0 X BW, but the first is faster, and springier… why?

The answer lies in many factors, but to keep it simple, the first is able to utilize his strength…he is proficient at converting strength to ballistic power…

So, the question then becomes, do we just squat and deadlift the second guy to death in hopes that somehow he will be faster? He will make gains, but the biggest gains will be made through proficiency, not adding more potential…

This is where Inno-Sport, IMO, feel that 99% of the Squat and Dealift guys get it all wrong.

Inno-Sport realizes that adding MaxS, if trained for correctly, is just the very beginning (and is frankly easy to do until the elite level). The secret is how to teach the athlete to utilize this strength.

This is done by systematically progressing the athlete down the force-time curve, and training both aspects of power: absorption and display.

Now, they also speak at length about how to correct a slow eccentric absorption… this is known as stiffness. Basically when you watch an athlete move along and their foot looks like a dead fish attached to their calf… they have poor PF stiffness, and need to train that region to instantly absorb and stabilize the force so it may be harnessed for display.

Simple enough, I think.

The idea of using a drop off… not so very new. Poliquin discusses it in one of his early works. It can be very effective if you train yourself as opposed to using a trainer with tons of experience who can see this happen and stop the session.

Where do I stand on the issue? I am probably somewhere in the middle, depending on the athlete. If the athlete has great strength already, I am very much in agreement with Brad. But, 95% of my clinets are so weak it is sad really. I throw a BFS beeper on them and ask them to max out, and 19/20 don’t come anywhwere near acceptable strength levels.

But, a few blocks of eccentrics, Iso holds @ the point of least leverage, 1 1/2 Reps, and Oscillatory Isos, and that very quickly rectifies itself. Most people just don’t emphasize truly heavy, and truly deep.

So I am sorry if I offended Rick James. I do agree it was convoluted… but I guess my opinion differs in that once extracted, the material was worth the effort 1000 times over.

But, I train athletes, and don’t train them to have big arms, etc. Frankly, that is pretty basic, isn’t it?

I don’t think my arms have ever been smaller, but I am 34, 6’, and can still dunk and run 90 minutes for a soccer match without issue (and I play wing Midfield). And, have a formerly ruptured achilles tendon.

Maybe I just need to squat more weight… who knows.

~The Anomaly[/quote]

42

[quote]RonnieM wrote:
What do you think would be most effective for increasing strength? Eccentrics on a low box(never done)and paused reps on the bottom of single leg squats, or full ROM box squats and paused single leg squats. And as far as eccentrics go, do you want to find the most weight you can lower in 5-10 secs under control? Would this be more than the 1RM, depending on the trainee?[/quote]

The “correct” answer depends on why you are getting stronger? Is it to lift more weight in that movement or is it to improve on-field performance? For example, if you are getting stronger to improve vertical jump, regular squats and deadlifts may not be the best choice (they may as well, this just shows there are many factors involved). The reason they may not be the best choice is because of the deceleration at the top of the movement. For the vertical jump, acceleration is occuring at this point.

For your other questions, the length of the eccentric depends on your needs and what you are training for. To build max strength. I would recommend using a time frame of 4-9sec. For strength endurance, you can use a time frame of 10-70+ sec, but I would use a different method.

43

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
climbon wrote:
RJ24 wrote:
climbon wrote:
RJ24

I wouldn’t worry too much about setting up your next program. I would probably take at least a week or two of rest/restoration after your track season. Then I would perform some testing to determine what is your weakness. With that information in hand and being rested, it should not be hard to come up with a good program.

As far as what you have listed, I would try to limit it to two companion sessions. remember that you want your B session to build your A session and vice versa. That way you improve each session and lay the groundwork for improvement at the next session.

climbon, session 3 is the fatigue day. Just clearing things up.

RJ

That makes a little more sense. Are you planning on doing any upper body work? What drop offs/frequency are you planning to use?

Upper body work will be negligible. I may do a few pull ups and some other things here or there, but it’s nothing to write about.

I plan on using 6% dropoffs for frequency and 10-12 for fatigue.

RJ[/quote]

Be sure to train your upper body. It is involved to some extent in your events. Have you “used the system” previously? If not, begin with the 6% and 10-12% drop offs. However, you may notice that you can supercompensate 6% with a 4% drop off. The point is, after you perform a few cycles you may notice that your optimum drop offs are different than the general recommendation. It is ideal to do the least amount of work to gain the most reward.

44

[quote]Nuttall wrote:

Hey, not everyone is “smart” enough to milk training density for what it’s worth [/quote]

obviously not everyone is smart enough to lie about their identity either.

45

[quote]climbon wrote:
RonnieM wrote:
What do you think would be most effective for increasing strength? Eccentrics on a low box(never done)and paused reps on the bottom of single leg squats, or full ROM box squats and paused single leg squats. And as far as eccentrics go, do you want to find the most weight you can lower in 5-10 secs under control? Would this be more than the 1RM, depending on the trainee?

The “correct” answer depends on why you are getting stronger? Is it to lift more weight in that movement or is it to improve on-field performance? For example, if you are getting stronger to improve vertical jump, regular squats and deadlifts may not be the best choice (they may as well, this just shows there are many factors involved). The reason they may not be the best choice is because of the deceleration at the top of the movement. For the vertical jump, acceleration is occuring at this point.

For your other questions, the length of the eccentric depends on your needs and what you are training for. To build max strength. I would recommend using a time frame of 4-9sec. For strength endurance, you can use a time frame of 10-70+ sec, but I would use a different method. [/quote]

climbon, well the strength improvement is to solidify the foundation for increasing speed and vertical jump. Although i must admit i kinda just like being strong, seems to me both can be achieved. I am pretty strong though right now I guess(not by T-Nation standards, but who cares), 2X BW or more in low box squat, and probably like 1.25bw per leg doing bulgarians with dumbells. I was just trying to get to say 2.5BW for the squat and boost my posterior chain strength, then eliminate the strength training for a prolonged strength-speed/speed-strength training cycle. What do u think are better choices, if there are better choices.

46

Ronnie whatever you do, you gotta know what ur doing, so unless you have a pro DB type coach who can get you to squat 600kg in about 2 weeks of “proper training” dont waist your time.

All u guys should really learn something from Jumanji

I talked to him and basically he was saying " DB, WSB, CFTS, you are going to get good results from all of them because they are all based on sound principals. "

it all comes down to
force x velocity= power.

So no Ronnie, theere are no best choices, just scientific principals and personal needs.

47

There are better choices for each individual and obviously those will vary from person to person. Since you are planning to start moving towards the other side of the force curve, you may benefit more from some oscillatory isometrics (OIs). These would build strength and prepare you for more Rate and Magnitude work that will be performed during your power cycle. However, if you have never performed them (OIs), the weight you will be using to learn proper technique may very well be to light to force any adaptation as far as strength goes.

I would suggest starting with some isometrics in a “stretch” position and/or eccentrics. Some people do not notice much in the way of strength gains with isometrics (I believe this is true for CCJ who has been using this system much longer than I have). Refer to the Training Templates article on Inno-Sport to get an idea how to set up the companion sessions. Read the Basics article by Kelly Baggett under Miscellaneous. I believe it has a sample strength block.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

48

That’s another part I don’t understand. Some of the methods used by Inno-Sport have been around longer, but just go by a different name. Why rename all the lifts?

49

If you’re going to make up a name, redo the stuff you learned from Jay Schroeder and EliteFTS, and want to embark on an adventure of Guruhood, you need to bust out some funky abbreviations.

Despite how good an Innosport workout might be, there’s always that underlying feeling that Nuttal and his amigos have tried to pull a fast one on you.

50

Good work climbon and the others who are still talkin training.

I hope this thread can progress beyond all the “Who is DBHammer?” and “Inno sport sux cuz I cant figure it out”.

For those interested, who legitimately cannot figure it out, this thread may be an opportunity to learn some of the system from those who have figured it out

51

Okay, back to training questions everyone.

What exercises would be best to help build power absorbtion in the legs for the triple jump? I was thinking single leg bounds and running and ADA Split squats.

You see, I’m having trouble recovering from the first hop (my knee tends to collapse) and need to stiffen up. Any other suggestions?

Thanks,
RJ

52

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
Okay, back to training questions everyone.

What exercises would be best to help build power absorbtion in the legs for the triple jump? I was thinking single leg bounds and running and ADA Split squats.

You see, I’m having trouble recovering from the first hop (my knee tends to collapse) and need to stiffen up. Any other suggestions?

Thanks,
RJ [/quote]

I think it would depend on where you are in your development. seeing people helps a lot too.

I’d start with the feet. How’s your PF stiffness? and work my way up the chain from there.

Unfortunately I’m not too familiar with triple jump technique so this is a guess. Maybe Dan can chime in. He trains an awesome triple jumper.

Here’s my guess:

Perhaps your plantar stiffness is not up to par (or hip extension power) so your body is collapsing the knee to allow the quads to drive the movement rather than the post. chain (gastroc and hips).

My words are not flowin today so if this doesn;t make sense then feel free to ignore

I’d love to hear what others have to say

53

Squat, Deadlift, Bench/Overhead press, Plyometrics, Single leg stuff, practice your sport.

That should cover your double helix strength-endurance-speed curves shouldn’t it?

54

[quote]squattin600 wrote:
RJ24 wrote:
Okay, back to training questions everyone.

What exercises would be best to help build power absorbtion in the legs for the triple jump? I was thinking single leg bounds and running and ADA Split squats.

You see, I’m having trouble recovering from the first hop (my knee tends to collapse) and need to stiffen up. Any other suggestions?

Thanks,
RJ

I think it would depend on where you are in your development. seeing people helps a lot too.

I’d start with the feet. How’s your PF stiffness? and work my way up the chain from there.

Unfortunately I’m not too familiar with triple jump technique so this is a guess. Maybe Dan can chime in. He trains an awesome triple jumper.

Here’s my guess:

Perhaps your plantar stiffness is not up to par (or hip extension power) so your body is collapsing the knee to allow the quads to drive the movement rather than the post. chain (gastroc and hips).

My words are not flowin today so if this doesn;t make sense then feel free to ignore

I’d love to hear what others have to say[/quote]

Thank you, this might be it. I’ve been a gym rat for a while now, so it may be my PF stiffness. Would if just do stiff legged ADA drops for this?

Also, what would you recommend to increase hip extension power? Like I said, 1-leg bounds seem like a good idea to me.

Thanks,
RJ

55

[quote]oboffill wrote:
Squat, Deadlift, Bench/Overhead press, Plyometrics, Single leg stuff, practice your sport.

That should cover your double helix strength-endurance-speed curves shouldn’t it?[/quote]

oboffill, in a sport where you win or lose by inches, “Just squat and run,” isn’t the best answer. When you miss out on going to state in the long jump by a 1/2", you’re going to wish you had approached your training with a little more forethought.

RJ

56

RJ, you should try out the OI HF squat, or the OI split squat. Also throw in the ADA SS.

57

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
oboffill wrote:
Squat, Deadlift, Bench/Overhead press, Plyometrics, Single leg stuff, practice your sport.

That should cover your double helix strength-endurance-speed curves shouldn’t it?

oboffill, in a sport where you win or lose by inches, “Just squat and run,” isn’t the best answer. When you miss out on going to state in the long jump by a 1/2", you’re going to wish you had approached your training with a little more forethought.

RJ
[/quote]

I don’t know man (really, I don’t) but reading Dan John has made me very skeptical about this type of over analysis. He’s no pushover, either. He sticks to basics and gets results, world class results.

Hey, whatever makes you faster, stronger, at-peace with yourself.

That sucks though, 1/2". Good luck in your training, bro.

58

What is inno-sport? I’m guessing it’s some kind of routine meant to increase power?

Someone’s going to tell me to “go buy the book” before I ask questions, but I would like to at least know what it is.

59

go to the site then go read kelly post about it. its free and u get all u need to use the system

60

Alright, I have to chime in at 5:23 before I go out to the fields…

No, squat and deadlift and practice your sport is not enough, obviously. No offense, but obviously.

This doesn’t address the inability of many athletes to absorb force correctly (Instantaneously), and doesn’t address the fact that squat and deadlift frankly don’t guarantee power at toe-off. I know plenty of guys who can squat a truck (compared to me), but are sucky athletes. They don’t get it.

So the answer is no.

We all now plenty of guys who were so dedicated to football in HS that they lifted their butts off, and could bench more than most guys, squat more than most guys, but just weren’t fast. They seemed to stick to the ground, and when entering into cuts would seem to get all “mushy”. (Hell, I would bet money that some of the gurus here were those guys back in the day.)

We write these guys as “just not good athletes”.

Crap.

The issue is that they are poor in the traits required for athleticism that most training systems do not address. These systems are used by top athletes with great success.

Why? Because these typical systems address the areas most ‘recruited’ players need work on… strength, maybe size.

The “gifted” athlete has great reactivity genetically(ability to absorb and display power at the correct rates both eccentrically and concentrically), they are very quick twitch, have fast hands, etc… and some even have very stiff calves.

If you do not know what stiff calves look like, go over to sportxtraining. Roger has two very clean videos showing “good hip extension”, and “poor hip extension”. They are found on the video analysis page.

What isn’t discussed is the idea that the guy with great hip extension actually leaks power through his heals, terribly. The guy with poor hip extension has great PF stiffness. I would bet that poor guy is a better natural athlete, and the second is a weightroom made athlete. But, in the video, you will notice the difference that great hip extension gives you when you look at the distances covered by the second stride (even though the good guy overstrides to reach for distance).

Back to our slow, hard working guy from HS.

Anyway, the normal “guru” doesn’t even address these types of issues. How do we train reactivity? How do we raise power output most efficiently within the ballistic portion of the curve… basically, how do we improve the “not a natural athlete” guy?

This is what get me so excited about Brad’s work. It works on the areas that need working on… for both types of athletes.

Does the 180 pound athlete who squats 405, but is a tenth slow in the 40 really need to squat more? Not necessarily… never hurts, but there are so many other ways to add speed. He need to increase proficiency at coverting that MaxS to other forms of strength and power.

And guys, why is everyone trying to make the system so complex?

For those that just want to use the training as a general means of preparedness, which it is, then just pick a couple / few exercises, circuit them, and go with it.

Just:

Bring strength levels up to par by working Ecc, Iso, normal reps emphasizing weak ranges of the lift, and Oscillatory Isos. Then move to force absoprtion in the strength-speed range, then fully reactive reps in the strength-speed, and absorption in the speed-strength range… the whole while doing dedicated drills centered around on-field work… general, not necessarily specific. But general that will improve what you need help on…

Pick 2-4 exercises and cicuit them… why is this so hard? Why is it “so complex”?

You can ask all of the what-ifs you like, but unless I was able to see you move, I would have very little hope of being able to tell you what you need. Just remember to work the entire force curve both eccentrically and concentrically, and the hierarchy: Unilateral is always better, if possible. Base with parallel foot positions, but then really work uni-lateral positions: Bulgarian squats, Step-Ups, Lateral Step-Ups, Around the Clock Lunges, Reactive Lunges, etc… make sure you can easily absorb force uni-laterally. (The O-Lifts if done with a split are great at this also!!)

Altitude Drops to Depth Jumps, to SS Altitude Drops, to SS Depth Jumps, to Single leg work, then add rotation, then fully reactive drop and go work… and so on.

Work the heck out of Prime Times, fast and with a weight vest.

Do your sled work, and/or contrast work with elastics. This helps to add horizontal strength.

Recover with brutal tempo / GPP sessions (hard on heart, not CNS), coupled with easy skill work (shoot a ball, catch, rehearse great soccer footwork with a ball,etc).

It isn’t complicated.

But, if you are a “slow-twitch” guy who is strong, I would choose no other “system”. It isn’t a system, it is merely correct adherence to the science that is out there, directed at the needs of that particular athlete.

If you are just a quick-twitch sissy, get you little ass in the gym, and start eating all the time. Follow Chad, follow CT, follow Poliquin, follow Tate, follow Inno, …

Who cares!!!

These are all great trainers.

Like I said before, if you like Inno, pick a few exercises, and circuit them. If you need to add mass, then do some EDT training on your problem areas afterwards. I might not agree with CS that the Inno stuff is garbage, but I still love his EDT work… (it is great for assistance work, especially!! What a great application of the repetition method!! Awesome!!)

Until you get to the elite levels, strength gains, and adding functional muscle isn’t rocket science.

So if you don’t have acceptable strength get your punk ass to the gym. Stop trying to find the perfect program. The simple fact is that you eat like crap, are scared to get under a heavy bar, and don’t deserve to get better. Excuse maker. Earn it or shut up.

There are no secrets, or special stuff until elite levels are met. A solid program is the best way to go. Cy and the boys have posted about 10,000 of them… 10,000 answers. Shut up and have at it.

J